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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Phoenix CXXVI: Clowns to the left of me... jokers to the right...

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Old
04-09-2017, 07:14 PM
  #101
powerstuck
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There is no logic in playing another season in Glendale, yet that's what's gonna happen, because it's the Coyotes' saga!
Where do you people think Coyotes could move to play on a short term (Oct 2017) ?

Quebec ? - Impossible. The conference imbalance prevents this (probably the only argument I can believe coming out of Gary Bettman's mouth).

Seattle ? - There is no arena ready for them.

Portland ? - Team is too expensive for what Allen would accept to pay.

Kansas City ? San Antonio ?

Given all those facts I am not surprised this stays on status quo for now.

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04-09-2017, 07:34 PM
  #102
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Mesa I'm not sure if Jamison was the answer either. There were more people involved and it would have been the same situation with a lease that Uncle Jerry and the tire salesman would have looked for some sort of loophole out. The only benefit would have been not having LeBlanc as a front man, but he was part of that Jamison group at one point.

Or are you referring to as far back as selling to Ellman and Moyes? We'd probably be in agreement in that case.

As to where Anthony is these days?? I think he's done. If Bettman hasn't had him whisked off to a remote area of the desert, Barroway probably has.
You and I are in agreement here TL! The quality of ownership from the Coyotes since inception has been poor at best. Most likely the root of all that ails the franchise today. Stronger ownership with actual NHL experience or sports related experience would have helped this situation . Pretty easy to look back and understand a few of the components that have lead to the dysfunction, No doubt Tony got too far out over his skis and was never able to bring the jump back to form. Most of us, you included, saw his shortcomings early on, it is a wonder he lasted as long as he did? It will be interesting to see how they spin his disappearance, or will they just hope nobody remembers two months from now?

The thing that bothers me the most is that it is easy to see the lies and disinformation now that we look back. Clearly, IA knew they were in over their heads, rather than come out and admit their shortcomings they masked them with the false bravado of plenty of money and plenty of strong management, both of which were outright lies! Recall the first months of ownership when Tony proclaimed that they were going to middle of the cap and provide the funds to GMDM to obtain upper tier talent, we know how that came out. Their definition of upper tier talent was the signing of Pronger and Datsyuk.

Wouldn`t it be the right thing to do this summer, presuming they play one more year at GRA to come out and just be honest for a change? Rather than trot this new stadium hoax and hope. They know that the likelihood of such an occurrence is next to nil. Instead, just more false hope and deception all in the name of a liittle extra cash. Look, if people want to go to games knowing that 17-18 will be their last year that is fantastic. But please stop selling this false hope, honesty with the fans should be their mantra, not the exception.

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04-09-2017, 08:28 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
Where do you people think Coyotes could move to play on a short term (Oct 2017) ?

Quebec ? - Impossible. The conference imbalance prevents this (probably the only argument I can believe coming out of Gary Bettman's mouth).

Seattle ? - There is no arena ready for them.

Portland ? - Team is too expensive for what Allen would accept to pay.

Kansas City ? San Antonio ?

Given all those facts I am not surprised this stays on status quo for now.
San Diego?

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04-09-2017, 08:53 PM
  #104
Tom ServoMST3K
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There is no legit reason to not relo to quebec IF NECESSARY. I think the NHL has a couple other fires in the east that they are saving quebec for.

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04-09-2017, 09:20 PM
  #105
Peter Skudra
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San Diego?
If they wouldn't give tax payer money for an NFL stadium, you think they would for an NHL arena?

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04-09-2017, 09:54 PM
  #106
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There is no legit reason to not relo to quebec IF NECESSARY. I think the NHL has a couple other fires in the east that they are saving quebec for.
I agree there's no absolute block to moving to Quebec. But it's not the NHL's preference. They have unresolved issues with eastern teams, and I don't think they want to move a southwestern team the same year another southwestern team is just starting. They don't want the shadow of that failure hanging over what will otherwise look like a successful start in Vegas, which should sell out most of its games, at least for the first year or so. The NHL has a lot invested in its southern strategy, and Bettman has even more, including a lot of his ego, his legacy as a commissioner, etc. They don't want to spoil the startup in Vegas with a big move that would make it look like hockey can't make it in the Southwest.

After a year or so of success in Vegas, which gives them another year to see if there's any chance at an arena deal, if anything might happen with an arena in Seattle and if a local sale occurs in Carolina . . . then, we might just see a move to Quebec. But I think only then. If things get fixed up in Carolina, Arizona/Seattle gets sorted out, and things don't blow up in Florida, then I think Quebec will get its team via expansion. Until then, Quebec is going to remain Plan B in the NHL's pocket for whenever it's unavoidable that a team has to move. For all these reasons, I think the NHL is willing to absorb another year of losses in AZ, mitigating them with money from Gary's hockey development fund. What looks like crazy economics to us to stay in AZ, looks quite different to the NHL when you weigh all these factors against another year or two of losses.

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04-09-2017, 10:20 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by WildGopher View Post
I agree there's no absolute block to moving to Quebec. But it's not the NHL's preference. They have unresolved issues with eastern teams, and I don't think they want to move a southwestern team the same year another southwestern team is just starting. They don't want the shadow of that failure hanging over what will otherwise look like a successful start in Vegas, which should sell out most of its games, at least for the first year or so. The NHL has a lot invested in its southern strategy, and Bettman has even more, including a lot of his ego, his legacy as a commissioner, etc. They don't want to spoil the startup in Vegas with a big move that would make it look like hockey can't make it in the Southwest.
.... pretty much, caught between.... pleasing me to no end imagining thats Gary & not Homer...


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04-09-2017, 10:45 PM
  #108
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.... pretty much, caught between.... pleasing me to no end imagining thats Gary & not Homer...

Yeah, Gary's ego bloated to hubris. Booed in every arena he appears in. Lost reputation as an honest man. Can that really be worth it?

On another note, I see every time the wrecking ball in your post hits that rock, a tiny bit of the rock chips off. So if I sit here staring at it long enough, will the top of the rock get all chipped away, Homer finally freed? I'm thinking I might just sit here watching it for a few hours to see. Better than eating more and more popcorn while I wait for some resolution of this saga. No calories. Blood pressure gotta be better without all that salt. No kernels stuck in my teeth. We might need to shrink your cartoon into an emoticon and lay off the popcorn for a while. Use this new image as our "waiting" emoticon. A little hard on Homer, sure, but probably healthier for the rest of us. Especially since this saga is going to last a while.

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04-09-2017, 10:49 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
San Diego?
San Diego is considered Anaheim's territory, now, after the Samueli's bought Norfolk to restart the Gulls, Aavco....and powerstuck, isn't San Antonio under Spurs ownership, so no on that and everyone knows Sylvester James and Kansas City want nothing to do with pro hockey downtown, after the Pittsburgh looksee before Consol was built in PIT.

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04-09-2017, 10:55 PM
  #110
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I agree there's no absolute block to moving to Quebec. But it's not the NHL's preference. They have unresolved issues with eastern teams, and I don't think they want to move a southwestern team the same year another southwestern team is just starting. They don't want the shadow of that failure hanging over what will otherwise look like a successful start in Vegas, which should sell out most of its games, at least for the first year or so. The NHL has a lot invested in its southern strategy, and Bettman has even more, including a lot of his ego, his legacy as a commissioner, etc. They don't want to spoil the startup in Vegas with a big move that would make it look like hockey can't make it in the Southwest.

After a year or so of success in Vegas, which gives them another year to see if there's any chance at an arena deal, if anything might happen with an arena in Seattle and if a local sale occurs in Carolina . . . then, we might just see a move to Quebec. But I think only then. If things get fixed up in Carolina, Arizona/Seattle gets sorted out, and things don't blow up in Florida, then I think Quebec will get its team via expansion. Until then, Quebec is going to remain Plan B in the NHL's pocket for whenever it's unavoidable that a team has to move. For all these reasons, I think the NHL is willing to absorb another year of losses in AZ, mitigating them with money from Gary's hockey development fund. What looks like crazy economics to us to stay in AZ, looks quite different to the NHL when you weigh all these factors against another year or two of losses.
Another year to try for a new arena?

After last year when it was stated it was too late to get anything through the legislature...

Then, a second attempt this year...which dragged on for almost a year, when it was DOA from the very beginning...

Now, essentially a third attempt for a new arena with tarped off sections in an existing arena that will not and cannot work?

As Rep. Kern stated...'Dear Coyotes, if you can't make it in Glendale, you can't make it anywhere.'

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04-09-2017, 11:07 PM
  #111
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Another year to try for a new arena?

After last year when it was stated it was too late to get anything through the legislature...

Then, a second attempt this year...which dragged on for almost a year, when it was DOA from the very beginning...

Now, essentially a third attempt for a new arena with a tarped off sections in an existing arena that will not and cannot work?

As Rep. Kern stated...'Dear Coyotes, if you can't make it in Glendale, you can't make it anywhere.'
I don't think it'll happen, either. But while the Coyotes are under marching orders from the NHL to stay another year (which I think is the case), I think they'll explore, however much of a long-shot, three possible arena options: the tribes, Phoenix, and money from a new investor to go back to the legislature with a better offer. There are huge shortcomings in all three of these plans, so I don't think any of them will happen in the end.

I just think the optics of success for the Vegas experiment play into this for the NHL a lot more than it might appear to us just looking at the profit/loss, bottom line economics. If profit/loss is the metric, you move them this week to Quebec City now that the season is over. But the NHL has other needs. So as long as they have to be stuck in AZ another year, I think they will continue looking for an arena deal, as ridiculous as that sounds to us seeing how they have a perfectly good state-of-the art building now.

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04-09-2017, 11:16 PM
  #112
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I don't think it'll happen, either. But while the Coyotes are under marching orders from the NHL to stay another year (which I think is the case), I think they'll explore, however much of a long-shot, three possible arena options: the tribes, Phoenix, and money from a new investor to go back to the legislature with a better offer. There are huge shortcomings in all three of these plans, so I don't think any of them will happen in the end.
Absolutely...NHL was AWAYS in control...the real 'owners'...majority 'shareholders'...IceArizona clowns just the distraction from the other areas of the NHL slowly melting down...

Quote:
I just think the optics of success for the Vegas experiment play into this for the NHL a lot more than it might appear to us just looking at the profit/loss, bottom line economics. If profit/loss is the metric, you move them this week to Quebec City now that the season is over. But the NHL has other needs. So as long as they have to be stuck in AZ another year, I think they will continue looking for an arena deal, as ridiculous as that sounds to us seeing how they have a perfectly good state-of-the art building now.
Agreed that the optics for Las Vegas were there all along...when they were the only pro team...but with the NFL coming to town (possibly earlier than planned)...optics shattered...like Moe Green's glasses in the Godfather...

That is the saga of the Coyotes...always 'Stuck in the Middle'...

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04-09-2017, 11:43 PM
  #113
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...optics shattered...like Moe Green's glasses in the Godfather...
.... ha! very clever. brutally accurate.

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04-10-2017, 02:14 AM
  #114
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If they wouldn't give tax payer money for an NFL stadium, you think they would for an NHL arena?
I think it could be a good market for the NHL in the future especially with the NFL gone.

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04-10-2017, 02:23 AM
  #115
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I think it could be a good market for the NHL in the future especially with the NFL gone.
Where would they play and is there any potential ownership group?

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04-10-2017, 02:29 AM
  #116
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Where would they play and is there any potential ownership group?
I have no idea but they seem to like hockey there. AHL attendance is impressive

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04-10-2017, 07:21 AM
  #117
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I have no idea but they seem to like hockey there. AHL attendance is impressive
Don't compare the AHL and the NHL... and the Valley View Casino Center where the Gulls play was built in 1966! They would need a new arena.

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04-10-2017, 07:24 AM
  #118
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I don't think it'll happen, either. But while the Coyotes are under marching orders from the NHL to stay another year (which I think is the case), I think they'll explore, however much of a long-shot, three possible arena options: the tribes, Phoenix, and money from a new investor to go back to the legislature with a better offer. There are huge shortcomings in all three of these plans, so I don't think any of them will happen in the end.

I just think the optics of success for the Vegas experiment play into this for the NHL a lot more than it might appear to us just looking at the profit/loss, bottom line economics. If profit/loss is the metric, you move them this week to Quebec City now that the season is over. But the NHL has other needs. So as long as they have to be stuck in AZ another year, I think they will continue looking for an arena deal, as ridiculous as that sounds to us seeing how they have a perfectly good state-of-the art building now.
Las Vegas will be a failure (that's just my opinion)... so now it's time to move a struggling team to Quebec City to remove the spotlight from Sin City.

The conference imbalance is just a myth when a franchise needs to move NOW like the Thrashers...

Do the Coyotes need to move NOW? Probably. Will they? Probably not.

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04-10-2017, 07:27 AM
  #119
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Where do you people think Coyotes could move to play on a short term (Oct 2017) ?

Quebec ? - Impossible. The conference imbalance prevents this (probably the only argument I can believe coming out of Gary Bettman's mouth).

Seattle ? - There is no arena ready for them.

Portland ? - Team is too expensive for what Allen would accept to pay.

Kansas City ? San Antonio ?

Given all those facts I am not surprised this stays on status quo for now.
When Atlanta relocated to Winnipeg they continued to play in The South East Division for two years. If there was a quick move to Quebec the Nordiques/Coyotes would simply continue to play in the Pacific for a couple seasons.

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04-10-2017, 07:35 AM
  #120
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When Atlanta relocated to Winnipeg they continued to play in The South East Division for two years. If there was a quick move to Quebec the Nordiques/Coyotes would simply continue to play in the Pacific for a couple seasons.
Yes, but Atlanta was : ''Get the **** out of my arena'' situation.

In AZ, Glandale isn't kicking the Coyotes out, it's the team that wants to go into a new building.

It's not the same emergency. Like others pointed out, there are burning fires in the east.

If NHL wants to, they absolutely can move any team to Nome, Alaska or Quebec, Canada.

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04-10-2017, 08:01 AM
  #121
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Yes, but Atlanta was : ''Get the **** out of my arena'' situation.

In AZ, Glandale isn't kicking the Coyotes out, it's the team that wants to go into a new building.

It's not the same emergency. Like others pointed out, there are burning fires in the east.

If NHL wants to, they absolutely can move any team to Nome, Alaska or Quebec, Canada.
Right but if the NHL wants to avoid a lame duck season there is a option for a quick move and play in the same division

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04-10-2017, 08:49 AM
  #122
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When Atlanta relocated to Winnipeg they continued to play in The South East Division for two years. If there was a quick move to Quebec the Nordiques/Coyotes would simply continue to play in the Pacific for a couple seasons.
You can't compare Winnipeg playing in the South East Division to "Potential Quebec Team" playing in the Pacific Division. It is just no where near the same, even if it's only for a couple of years.

When Winnipeg moved from the South East to the Central, believe it or not, there was a lot of grumbling in Winnipeg about that move. A lot of fans wanted to stay in the South East. It was far more convenient to watch most of their games on TV because they started at 6:00pm or 6:30pm. And that's for a team in the Central time zone.

Now take Quebec, where the fans are in the east, but most of their games would be on TV at 9:00pm or 10:00pm. This is not a good scenario for your fan base. It's way easier IMO for a team that's based in the west to play most of it's games in the east, than it is to have your team in the east playing most of it's games in the west.

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04-10-2017, 08:54 AM
  #123
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Barring some kind of last minute panic attack by GB, it appears one final lame duck year in Az. is in store. Lets fast forward to October of this year and the start of the 17-18 season. What is this going to look like?

We know that the skeletal crew of Chayka and DT will have little to sell to Fa`s other than over paying for marginal talent (witness last years Goloigoski contract). What FA of any talent is going to move to such a dysfunctional organization? That leaves the Coyotes with the youth movement narrative for yet another season, sure they have some nice younger players, but they are years away from contending without some complementary pieces. Combine that with GB`s desire to save the BOG`s money and you will have a basement dweller in cap terms. So again, what is it exactly that the fans will be paying for? Another year of missed playoffs (six straight) and basically a minor league hockey team. Why should the STH`s be asked to pay anything close to NHL ticket prices to see a minor league team?

What happens on the evening of 12/31? Without the hope of a new arena, there is little reason for GB (IA is no longer a functioning ownership group) to extend the the GRA /COG lease for another year. In essence signaling that the team will definitely be gone by April. The optics of upper level tarping, poor on ice play and half empty lower level bowl seats will be far more harmful to the league than moving them NOW!

Do you want an indicator of complete and utter dysfunction? Dallas just fired Lindy Ruff for having missed the playoffs this year. Dave tippett has missed the playoffs for five straight years, why has he not been let go? The easiest way to change things up is a coaching change, however, in this case DT holds all of the cards. what other team in the league is controlled by a VP and coach? This very fact tells you all you need to know, Andy Barroway is being held out as the owner, but in reality is nothing but a placeholder without portfolio. He has absolutely no power to do anything. GB basically told DT he would be taken care of, regardless of his record. Again, an admittance by the league that they knew this would be a low budget bottom dweller. DT is their last source of credibility and therefore the league pays him what he wants just to maintain some semblance of order.

Finally, when is the local media going to actually write about this team dysfunction? Say Sarah, have you bothered to ask anyone in the organization where Tony is? Here is this blabber mouth , who has been the face of the organization and the face behind new arena plans, yet we have not heard or seen him in two months. Why is that? What has happened to Drummond? Say Sarah, have you inquired as to what has happened to the man behind the curtain? He seems to have dropped out with Tony, never to be heard from again, why?

There is a reason this thread continues on in infamy, the number of unanswered questions today is bigger than it has ever been. It is absolutely unfathomable that the league would allow this charade to continue on, but it does for whatever reason?

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04-10-2017, 09:02 AM
  #124
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You can't compare Winnipeg playing in the South East Division to "Potential Quebec Team" playing in the Pacific Division. It is just no where near the same, even if it's only for a couple of years.

When Winnipeg moved from the South East to the Central, believe it or not, there was a lot of grumbling in Winnipeg about that move. A lot of fans wanted to stay in the South East. It was far more convenient to watch most of their games on TV because they started at 6:00pm or 6:30pm. And that's for a team in the Central time zone.

Now take Quebec, where the fans are in the east, but most of their games would be on TV at 9:00pm or 10:00pm. This is not a good scenario for your fan base. It's way easier IMO for a team that's based in the west to play most of it's games in the east, than it is to have your team in the east playing most of it's games in the west.
Beyond what the fans want, it would be a scheduling and travel nightmare for the teams and players. Right now, as an example, the Sharks could easily play in Vegas one night and Phoenix the next (or Anaheim, LA, or at home). They couldn't possibly play in Vegas one night and Quebec City the next. It wouldn't just be a huge disadvantage for QC, it would be a disadvantage for everyone in their division as well given all the extra travel they would have to make and other teams wouldn't. Teams in the east already travel a lot less than teams in the west. The difference would only grow.

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04-10-2017, 09:14 AM
  #125
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Any Midwest club can flip flop conferences if needed. Nashville,Detroit,St Louis.

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