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How were the other jersey retirements this year compared to the big one?

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Old
02-11-2006, 06:22 AM
  #1
James Ownz Harper*
 
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How were the other jersey retirements this year compared to the big one?

The Francis and Stevens ones, compared to Messier?


Also when will Edmonton retire Messiers? Gretz better show up for that one...( Really though both his Mother and Grandmother dying a month apart...sucks.)

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02-11-2006, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Ownz Harper
The Francis and Stevens ones, compared to Messier?


Also when will Edmonton retire Messiers? Gretz better show up for that one...( Really though both his Mother and Grandmother dying a month apart...sucks.)
The Oilers retire a jersey number when a player is elected to the HOF.

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02-12-2006, 09:44 PM
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I saw both Francis and Stevens retirement ceremonies. They were both nice, understated, nothing too flashy. Both got some gifts from their team. Francis had some former teammates there, which I would have liked to see with Stevens. It was also a nice touch having Francis suit up one more time for a final lap around the ice, and the "passing of the torch" picture with Staal. Overall, just emotional nights that showed what both players meant to their teams.

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02-12-2006, 10:42 PM
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In my opiinion it was acime to retire Messier's Ranger sweater. Nobody identifies him with that team. What about Bill Cook, Fank Boucher and Andy Bathgate who were all more identified with the Rangers.

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02-12-2006, 10:56 PM
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messiers retirement ceremony was a joke

especially the bethovens 5th while his number was raised....lmao

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02-12-2006, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWINK19
I saw both Francis and Stevens retirement ceremonies. They were both nice, understated, nothing too flashy. Both got some gifts from their team. Francis had some former teammates there, which I would have liked to see with Stevens. It was also a nice touch having Francis suit up one more time for a final lap around the ice, and the "passing of the torch" picture with Staal. Overall, just emotional nights that showed what both players meant to their teams.
Francis retirement ceremony was great, I really liked it. It wasn't overblown at all, and him skating with his sons in the pregame while all wearing #10 jerseys with the C on them was really nice.
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02-12-2006, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metallian
messiers retirement ceremony was a joke

especially the bethovens 5th while his number was raised....lmao
Care to explain how it was a joke? Yes it was a little long and drawn out, but it was a nice ceremony. And that was Ode to Joy aka the 4th movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony, not Beethoven's 5th which IMO is the perfect song for retiring a jersey. What else would you use?


As far as the other ceremonies go, I didn't see Francis', but I was at the Stevens one. It was really nice, the Devils did a phenomenal job with it.

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02-12-2006, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
In my opiinion it was acime to retire Messier's Ranger sweater. Nobody identifies him with that team. What about Bill Cook, Fank Boucher and Andy Bathgate who were all more identified with the Rangers.
Are you joking?

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02-13-2006, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
In my opiinion it was acime to retire Messier's Ranger sweater. Nobody identifies him with that team. What about Bill Cook, Fank Boucher and Andy Bathgate who were all more identified with the Rangers.
It gets worse. I hear Colorado is retiring Messiers jersey as well...

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02-16-2006, 08:09 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
In my opiinion it was acime to retire Messier's Ranger sweater. Nobody identifies him with that team. What about Bill Cook, Fank Boucher and Andy Bathgate who were all more identified with the Rangers.
Yeah, because everybody in 2006 knows who Bill Cook, Frank Boucher and Andy Bathgate are. I guess Mark Messier and his icon status in the league and in New York don't compare to obscure hockey ghosts whom maybe 5% of the population of the hockey public is old enough to remember.

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02-18-2006, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Yeah, because everybody in 2006 knows who Bill Cook, Frank Boucher and Andy Bathgate are. I guess Mark Messier and his icon status in the league and in New York don't compare to obscure hockey ghosts whom maybe 5% of the population of the hockey public is old enough to remember.
I stand corrected. Anybody that knows anything about the history of hockey identifes Cook, Boucher & Bathgate with NY more than Messier.

Messier-10 years as a Ranger, i Stanley cup, no league awards

Cook-11 years as a Ranger player, 2 Stanley cups, 1 scoring championship, 2 times goal scoring leader, Also coached NY for 2 years.

Boucher-13 years as a player, 2 Stanley cups, 7 Lady Byngs, Coached NY for 11 years & won another cup as coach.

Bathgate-12 years as a player, Hart trophy winner.

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02-19-2006, 04:19 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
I stand corrected. Anybody that knows anything about the history of hockey identifes Cook, Boucher & Bathgate with NY more than Messier.

Messier-10 years as a Ranger, i Stanley cup, no league awards

Cook-11 years as a Ranger player, 2 Stanley cups, 1 scoring championship, 2 times goal scoring leader, Also coached NY for 2 years.

Boucher-13 years as a player, 2 Stanley cups, 7 Lady Byngs, Coached NY for 11 years & won another cup as coach.

Bathgate-12 years as a player, Hart trophy winner.
Messier broke the 54 year stanley cup drought... and when does the hart not count as a league award?

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02-19-2006, 05:38 AM
  #13
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What the Rangers did for Messier was great but way, way, way overdone. IMO the Oilers got it right with Paul Coffey's night and I think thats the best I've seen this year.

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02-19-2006, 08:15 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Ownz Harper
Messier broke the 54 year stanley cup drought... and when does the hart not count as a league award?
I always thought hockey was a team game. The Rangers broke a 54 year drought and Leech won the Conn Smythe not Messier. Also Messier won his Hart with Edmonton which is no reason to retire his Ranger's jersey, In addition Rangers missed the playoffs during most of Messier's tenure there

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02-19-2006, 09:00 AM
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Messier is more associated with the Rangers because a lot of people see the Oilers 4 Cups in the 80s and think it was all Gretzky. The truth is, Messier was the leader on the team. He rightfully deserves a jersey retiring from both New York and Edmonton. He was the face of the Rangers for 10 or so years. Got them to the playoffs 5 times. Broke the 54 year drought to top off an absolute nailbiter of a series after another absolute nailbiter of a series. He deserved that night. There are other players in Rangers history that deserve it and will get it too. Just don't expect to see Leetch's jersey retired any time soon. And what does you thinking hockey was a team game have to do with the Hart trophy? An MVP award is very honorable and shows leadership on a team, as it isn't just about the numbers.

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02-19-2006, 09:21 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nothingasitseems
Messier is more associated with the Rangers because a lot of people see the Oilers 4 Cups in the 80s and think it was all Gretzky. The truth is, Messier was the leader on the team. He rightfully deserves a jersey retiring from both New York and Edmonton. He was the face of the Rangers for 10 or so years. Got them to the playoffs 5 times. Broke the 54 year drought to top off an absolute nailbiter of a series after another absolute nailbiter of a series. He deserved that night. There are other players in Rangers history that deserve it and will get it too. Just don't expect to see Leetch's jersey retired any time soon. And what does you thinking hockey was a team game have to do with the Hart trophy? An MVP award is very honorable and shows leadership on a team, as it isn't just about the numbers.
I am only talking about the Rangers. My reference to Hockey being a team game was in response to a previous poster inferring that:

"Messier broke the 54 year stanley cup drought"

Hockey being a team game has nothing to do with the Hart trophy. All I was saying was that Meesier did not win the Hart as a Ranger.

In addition,if Messier deserves all the credit for getting the Rangers into the playoffs 5 years out of 10 then I guess he deserves all the credit for them missing 5 out of 10. You can't have it both ways.

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02-20-2006, 12:23 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
I stand corrected. Anybody that knows anything about the history of hockey identifes Cook, Boucher & Bathgate with NY more than Messier.

Messier-10 years as a Ranger, i Stanley cup, no league awards

Cook-11 years as a Ranger player, 2 Stanley cups, 1 scoring championship, 2 times goal scoring leader, Also coached NY for 2 years.

Boucher-13 years as a player, 2 Stanley cups, 7 Lady Byngs, Coached NY for 11 years & won another cup as coach.

Bathgate-12 years as a player, Hart trophy winner.
Mark Messier's Hart Trophy in 1992 somehow is worth less than Boucher's 7 Lady Byng Awards? Since when was a Lady Byng Trophy even a measure of greatness? How does Cook's one scoring championship make him an all-time great? And if hockey is the 'team game' that you say it is, why does Bathgate's one Hart Trophy mean more to the Rangers than Messier's captaining of the 1994 cup team? And why does coaching have any bearing on retiring a sweater, when retiring a sweater is clearly about on ice legacies, especially when Cook and Boucher were crap coaches?

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02-20-2006, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
Mark Messier's Hart Trophy in 1992 somehow is worth less than Boucher's 7 Lady Byng Awards? Since when was a Lady Byng Trophy even a measure of greatness? How does Cook's one scoring championship make him an all-time great? And if hockey is the 'team game' that you say it is, why does Bathgate's one Hart Trophy mean more to the Rangers than Messier's captaining of the 1994 cup team? And why does coaching have any bearing on retiring a sweater, when retiring a sweater is clearly about on ice legacies, especially when Cook and Boucher were crap coaches?
This is my last response since you obviously don't understand my point. We are talking about retired RANGERS numbers. Messier won the Hart with EDMONTON so it is irrevelent. In my opinion Cook, Boucher and Bathgate should have been honored by the RANGERS before Messier (forgetting about creating a spectacle for current fans). You obviously disagree which is OK but you seem unable to express your reasoning in any logical fashion.

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02-20-2006, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
Messier won the Hart with EDMONTON so it is irrevelent.
Mark Messier won two Hart trophies in his career.

He won one in 1992 with the New York Rangers as well as one with the 1990 Edmonton Oilers.

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02-20-2006, 11:34 AM
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Montreal retired #12, proudly worn by Yvan Cournoyer and Dickie Moore. They have a knack for ceremonies in Mtl. and it was done very well. The only negative was drunken Leaf fans chanting Go Leafs Go during the presentation. They can't get tickets at home and tend to get wasted the afternoon before the game.

When you see guys like Moore and Cournoyer, guys that were key players on great teams, the one quality you always notice is how they absolutely hated to lose.

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02-20-2006, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by arrbez
It gets worse. I hear Colorado is retiring Messiers jersey as well...

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02-20-2006, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
This is my last response since you obviously don't understand my point. We are talking about retired RANGERS numbers. Messier won the Hart with EDMONTON so it is irrevelent. In my opinion Cook, Boucher and Bathgate should have been honored by the RANGERS before Messier (forgetting about creating a spectacle for current fans). You obviously disagree which is OK but you seem unable to express your reasoning in any logical fashion.



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02-20-2006, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by CH
Mark Messier won two Hart trophies in his career.

He won one in 1992 with the New York Rangers as well as one with the 1990 Edmonton Oilers.
On that particular point you are right & I am wrong. Forgot that Messier won the 92 Hart with NY.

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02-20-2006, 12:52 PM
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for the historian buff in you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
I stand corrected. Anybody that knows anything about the history of hockey identifes Cook, Boucher & Bathgate with NY more than Messier.

Messier-10 years as a Ranger, i Stanley cup, no league awards

Cook-11 years as a Ranger player, 2 Stanley cups, 1 scoring championship, 2 times goal scoring leader, Also coached NY for 2 years.

Boucher-13 years as a player, 2 Stanley cups, 7 Lady Byngs, Coached NY for 11 years & won another cup as coach.

Bathgate-12 years as a player, Hart trophy winner.
Mark Messier won the League MVP award in NY in 91-92, he also won the Lester B. Pearson award that same year.

Also you fail to mention that with a bigger pool of teams to compete against the odds of winning the Cup are severely diminished

But let's not let facts cloud your judgement

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02-20-2006, 02:55 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
This is my last response since you obviously don't understand my point. We are talking about retired RANGERS numbers. Messier won the Hart with EDMONTON so it is irrevelent. In my opinion Cook, Boucher and Bathgate should have been honored by the RANGERS before Messier (forgetting about creating a spectacle for current fans). You obviously disagree which is OK but you seem unable to express your reasoning in any logical fashion.
I don't know why I bother with someone who is arguing facts he hasn't bothered checking before he starts yapping, but Mark Messier won the 1991-92 Hart Trophy as a member of the NEW YORK RANGERS. If you want to simply ignore reality, be my guest. But don't argue about my 'comprehension' of the situation and 'logic' when you simply don't know your facts yourself. Thanks for coming out and see ya later.

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