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Round 2, Vote 3 (Stanley Cup Playoff Performers)

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Old
04-10-2017, 04:00 AM
  #1
quoipourquoi
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Round 2, Vote 3 (Stanley Cup Playoff Performers)

Procedure
  • You will be presented with an increasingly large number of players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties
  • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
  • The top-5 players will be added to The List, and the process will repeat itself for a total of eight voting cycles (#1-5 in Vote 1, #35-40 in Vote 8)

Eligible Voters
All voters are equal, but some voters are more equal than others
  • Anyone is eligible to submit a ballot in any voting cycle, so long as it falls within the designated voting period and contains ten names in ranked order
  • The results of the open voting will be posted after each voting cycle
  • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 60 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated both in the open ranking and in the History of Hockey ranking
  • BenchBrawl, Black Gold Extractor, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, drmagg, Johnny Engine, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, quoipourquoi, seventieslord, TheGeneral
  • The History of Hockey ranking will be used to assemble The List
  • You may continue to submit a ranked #1-60 list to quoipourquoi until further notice in order to be eligible for the History of Hockey ranking

Guidelines
  • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
  • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players or non-Stanley Cup Playoff performance
  • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
  • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, April 21st at midnight and continue through Sunday, April 23rd at 11:59pm. Eastern time zone. Send PMs to quoipourquoi. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, April 24th.


Vote 3 Candidates
  • Bernie Geoffrion
  • Bobby Orr
  • Bryan Trottier
  • Frank Nighbor
  • Guy Lafleur
  • Henri Richard
  • Joe Sakic
  • Ken Dryden
  • Larry Robinson
  • Mario Lemieux
  • Martin Brodeur
  • Mike Bossy
  • Nicklas Lidstrom
  • Paul Coffey
  • Peter Forsberg
  • Red Kelly
  • Turk Broda

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04-10-2017, 04:07 AM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
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I really wish I had been able to participate in Round one.

As a Devils fan, no way should Martin Brodeur go up before Scott Stevens, if we are speaking strictly playoffs.

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04-10-2017, 04:18 AM
  #3
quoipourquoi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I really wish I had been able to participate in Round one.

As a Devils fan, no way should Martin Brodeur go up before Scott Stevens, if we are speaking strictly playoffs.
I felt the same way. I also felt Peter Forsberg should go before Joe Sakic, so maybe I'm seeing it a little different than everybody.

Henri Richard is probably going to be a popular addition, as he has come up briefly in other discussions. Don't know that anyone else is going to make too big of a splash from the newcomers. Lemieux, Orr, and Broda look like my top players at each position.

I think my order on Lemieux and Orr has changed three times. Should it be as close as I feel it is?

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04-10-2017, 04:19 AM
  #4
BenchBrawl
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About time Geoffrion and H.Richard shows up.Every single person I know who saw Henri Richard play speaks very highly of him.By very highly I mean much higher than where he is usually ranked on this board.

Bernard Geoffrion

Geoffrion Playoff Finishes Among Montreal Players

52-53
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Bernie Geoffrion* 12 6 4 10
2 Maurice Richard* 12 7 1 8
3 Elmer Lach* 12 1 6 7
4 Dickie Moore* 12 3 2 5
5 Ken Mosdell 7 3 2 5

53-54
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Dickie Moore* 11 5 8 13
2 Bernie Geoffrion* 11 6 5 11
3 Jean Beliveau* 10 2 8 10
4 Floyd Curry 11 4 0 4
5 Paul Masnick 10 0 4 4

54-55
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Bernie Geoffrion* 12 8 5 13
2 Jean Beliveau* 12 6 7 13
3 Floyd Curry 12 8 4 12
4 Calum MacKay 12 3 8 11
5 Ken Mosdell 12 2 7 9

55-56
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Jean Beliveau* 10 12 7 19
2 Bernie Geoffrion* 10 5 9 14
3 Maurice Richard* 10 5 9 14
4 Bert Olmstead* 10 4 10 14
5 Dickie Moore* 10 3 6 9

56-57 (Retro-Conn Smythe)
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Bernie Geoffrion* 10 11 7 18
2 Jean Beliveau* 10 6 6 12
3 Maurice Richard* 10 8 3 11
4 Dickie Moore* 10 3 7 10
5 Bert Olmstead* 10 0 9 9

57-58
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Maurice Richard* 10 11 4 15
2 Jean Beliveau* 10 4 8 12
3 Bernie Geoffrion* 10 6 5 11
4 Dickie Moore* 10 4 7 11
5 Doug Harvey* 10 2 9 11

58-59
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Dickie Moore* 11 5 12 17
2 Marcel Bonin 11 10 5 15
3 Bernie Geoffrion* 11 5 8 13
4 Doug Harvey* 11 1 11 12
5 Henri Richard* 11 3 8 11

59-60
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Henri Richard* 8 3 9 12
2 Bernie Geoffrion* 8 2 10 12
3 Dickie Moore* 8 6 4 10
4 Jean Beliveau* 5 2 7
5 Marcel Bonin 1 4 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe
Bernie Geoffrion in the playoffs

Geoffrion was the leading playoff scorer of the dynasty that won 5 Cups in a row from 1956-1960

Leading playoff scorers 1956-1960, sorted by points, points-per-game also listed

playerGPGAPPPG
Geoffrion492939681.39
Moore492136571.16
Beliveau412827551.34
H Richard491334470.96
M Richard422519441.05
Harvey49832400.82
Olmstead511128390.76
MacKell291223351.21
McKenney291218301.03
Howe25720271.08

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play... der_by=points

In terms of individual seasons, Geoffrion led the playoffs in goals and points in 1957 (11 goals in 10 games!!!!) and in assists and points in 1960.

Geoffrion was a strong playoff scorer before the dynasty years

In the three years before the dynasty (1953-1955, Habs win 1 Cup, Detroit the other 2), Geoffrion was behind only Howe and Lindsay of the Red Wings dynasty in the playoffs. Only Alex Delvecchio of the Red Wings was close to these 3. (M Richard had an uncharacteristically weak playoffs in 1954 and was suspended for 1955). http://www.hockey-reference.com/play... der_by=points

Overall, Geoffrion scored 10+ points in the playoffs for 8 straight seasons from 1953-1960, back when the playoffs were only two rounds long (his team went to the finals in every year of this time frame). He scored 3 points in 4 playoff games in 1961 (not great, but not terrible) after winning his only Hart Trophy, then declined rapidly in both the regular season and the playoffs.
Playoff VsX Best 5 years

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
FORWARDS

# Name VsX5P
1 Wayne Gretzky 685
2 Gordie Howe 583
3 Maurice Richard 575
4 Jean Beliveau 559
5 Bernie Geoffrion 550
6 Phil Esposito 549
7 Joe Sakic 543
8 Guy Lafleur 528
9 Mario Lemieux 518
10 Ted Kennedy 517
11 Frank Boucher 501
12 Dickie Moore 498
13 Bobby Hull 497
14 Ted Lindsay 496
15 Mike Bossy 492
16 Mark Messier 490
17 Jacques Lemaire 485
18 Frank Mahovlich 484
19 Peter Forsberg 481
20 Sergei Fedorov 481
21 Stan Mikita 476
22 Bryan Trottier 475
23 Doug Gilmour 471
24 Toe Blake 466
25 Jari Kurri 461
26 Elmer Lach 456
27 Yvan Cournoyer 456
28 Howie Morenz 455
29 Sidney Crosby 453
30 Steve Yzerman 449
31 Evgeni Malkin 447
32 Norm Ullman 447
33 Cy Denneny 446
34 Patrick Kane 435
35 Sid Abel 435
36 Max Bentley 434
37 Marty Barry 429
38 Mike Modano 427
39 Rick MacLeish 424
40 Alex Delvecchio 420


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-10-2017 at 04:24 AM.
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04-10-2017, 05:03 AM
  #5
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Random initial thoughts:

-Guy Lafleur will most likely be my #1.
-Time for Orr and Lemieux to get in.
-Brodeur looks very bad.
-Bossy vs Geoffrion is interesting
-Undecided on H.Richard and Nighbor.
-Sakic > Forsberg.Sakic's best runs happened when Colorado won.He was also the soul of his team.
-Overall it's getting harder to rank all those guys.

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04-10-2017, 05:25 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I really wish I had been able to participate in Round one.
What would have been your Top 10?

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04-10-2017, 06:03 AM
  #7
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Woah, TDMM sighting. Welcome back big guy!

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04-10-2017, 06:52 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Sakic > Forsberg.Sakic's best runs happened when Colorado won.
Because Colorado received scoring depth in 1996 and 2001 but very little in 1999 and 2002 when Peter Forsberg led the playoffs in scoring.

1996
Sakic: 34 points in 22 games
Kamensky: 22 points in 22 games
Forsberg: 21 points in 22 games
Ozolinsh: 19 points in 22 games
Ricci: 17 points in 22 games
Deadmarsh: 17 points in 22 games

2001
Sakic: 26 points in 21 games
Hejduk: 23 points in 23 games
Tanguay: 21 points in 23 games
Blake: 19 points in 23 games
Drury: 16 points in 23 games
Forsberg: 14 points in 11 games

1999
Forsberg: 24 points in 19 games
Sakic: 19 points in 19 games (12 in Round 1, 7 in Rounds 2/3)
Fleury: 17 points in 18 games (11 in Round 1, 6 in Rounds 2/3)
Lemieux: 14 points in 19 games
Hejduk: 12 points in 16 games

2002
Forsberg: 27 points in 20 games
Sakic: 19 points in 21 games
Tanguay: 13 points in 19 games
de Vries: 13 points in 21 games
Blake: 12 points in 20 games
Drury: 12 points in 21 games
...
Hejduk: 6 points in 16 games


More than that, most of Sakic's edge on Forsberg in 1996 comes from the two series where Chicago and Detroit put their focus on Forsberg (Sakic outscored Forsberg 18-6 in these rounds) - just as Dallas would do in the 1999 and 2000 Conference Finals. Sakic produced without the coverage in 1996 and they won. He didn't produce without the coverage in 1999 and 2000 and they lost.

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04-10-2017, 08:03 AM
  #9
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...and this is where the "increasingly growing numbers" becomes an issue

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04-10-2017, 08:15 AM
  #10
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Quick take:

I would've had other new entrants, but none of them appear misplaced, other than possibly Brodeur. I really dont get it for Brodeur, honestly, as he's probably not the best player on his team, and certainly not the best player at his position (that's not yet up for voting)

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04-10-2017, 08:19 AM
  #11
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Coffey is one that I thought would look better before I started Round 1, but maybe I just associated him with 1985 too much before this project.

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04-10-2017, 09:13 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
About time Geoffrion and H.Richard shows up.Every single person I know who saw Henri Richard play speaks very highly of him.By very highly I mean much higher than where he is usually ranked on this board.

Bernard Geoffrion

Geoffrion Playoff Finishes Among Montreal Players

52-53
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Bernie Geoffrion* 12 6 4 10
2 Maurice Richard* 12 7 1 8
3 Elmer Lach* 12 1 6 7
4 Dickie Moore* 12 3 2 5
5 Ken Mosdell 7 3 2 5

53-54
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Dickie Moore* 11 5 8 13
2 Bernie Geoffrion* 11 6 5 11
3 Jean Beliveau* 10 2 8 10
4 Floyd Curry 11 4 0 4
5 Paul Masnick 10 0 4 4

54-55
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Bernie Geoffrion* 12 8 5 13
2 Jean Beliveau* 12 6 7 13
3 Floyd Curry 12 8 4 12
4 Calum MacKay 12 3 8 11
5 Ken Mosdell 12 2 7 9

55-56
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Jean Beliveau* 10 12 7 19
2 Bernie Geoffrion* 10 5 9 14
3 Maurice Richard* 10 5 9 14
4 Bert Olmstead* 10 4 10 14
5 Dickie Moore* 10 3 6 9

56-57 (Retro-Conn Smythe)
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Bernie Geoffrion* 10 11 7 18
2 Jean Beliveau* 10 6 6 12
3 Maurice Richard* 10 8 3 11
4 Dickie Moore* 10 3 7 10
5 Bert Olmstead* 10 0 9 9

57-58
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Maurice Richard* 10 11 4 15
2 Jean Beliveau* 10 4 8 12
3 Bernie Geoffrion* 10 6 5 11
4 Dickie Moore* 10 4 7 11
5 Doug Harvey* 10 2 9 11

58-59
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Dickie Moore* 11 5 12 17
2 Marcel Bonin 11 10 5 15
3 Bernie Geoffrion* 11 5 8 13
4 Doug Harvey* 11 1 11 12
5 Henri Richard* 11 3 8 11

59-60
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Henri Richard* 8 3 9 12
2 Bernie Geoffrion* 8 2 10 12
3 Dickie Moore* 8 6 4 10
4 Jean Beliveau* 5 2 7
5 Marcel Bonin 1 4 5



Playoff VsX Best 5 years
By all means, need to add two more players from the Montreal dynasty team of the 50's.

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04-10-2017, 01:28 PM
  #13
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Random thoughts from a non-voter:

One could easily make the argument that Guy Lafleur was the most important playoff performer on any Canadiens dynasty, right?

I think I like Orr better than Lemieux here. Both had some downs in the playoffs, but with the notable exception of 1971 (when he was putrid in his own zone - the video is embarrassing), I feel like Orr just brought the otherwordly play more consistently in the postseason.

If Orr and Lemieux (rightly) get criticized for some notable downs in the playoffs, Paul Coffey should too, right?

The Islanders went from being chokers to champs almost immediately after adding Bossy. That should count for something, right?

I also have a preference for Sakic over Forsberg, but I understand the argument to the contrary.

The case for Henry Richard - Why should he be much behind Messier? Messier rightfully gets mad credit in the playoffs for almost always outplaying his opposing center, no matter who that was, and winning playoff games for his team in doing so.
Well... Henry Richard did the same thing, whether it be Esposito, Clarke, etc.

The case against Henry Richard - Someone (Hockey Outsider?) posted in the HOH Top Players project that Richard's stats in the playoffs decline more than any star player on the Canadiens dynasty. Granted, he seems to have taken a more defensive role in the playoffs. But should he really be ahead of Sergei Fedorov, someone who played a strong two-way role in the playoffs and always brought the numbers?

I love Brodeur, but I feel like comparing him to Hasek and Belfour would be a worthwhile exercise when they all appear.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 04-10-2017 at 01:54 PM.
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04-10-2017, 03:45 PM
  #14
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Irony

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
About time Geoffrion and H.Richard shows up.Every single person I know who saw Henri Richard play speaks very highly of him.By very highly I mean much higher than where he is usually ranked on this board.

Bernard Geoffrion

Geoffrion Playoff Finishes Among Montreal Players

52-53
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Bernie Geoffrion* 12 6 4 10
2 Maurice Richard* 12 7 1 8
3 Elmer Lach* 12 1 6 7
4 Dickie Moore* 12 3 2 5
5 Ken Mosdell 7 3 2 5

53-54
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Dickie Moore* 11 5 8 13
2 Bernie Geoffrion* 11 6 5 11
3 Jean Beliveau* 10 2 8 10
4 Floyd Curry 11 4 0 4
5 Paul Masnick 10 0 4 4

54-55
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Bernie Geoffrion* 12 8 5 13
2 Jean Beliveau* 12 6 7 13
3 Floyd Curry 12 8 4 12
4 Calum MacKay 12 3 8 11
5 Ken Mosdell 12 2 7 9

55-56
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Jean Beliveau* 10 12 7 19
2 Bernie Geoffrion* 10 5 9 14
3 Maurice Richard* 10 5 9 14
4 Bert Olmstead* 10 4 10 14
5 Dickie Moore* 10 3 6 9

56-57 (Retro-Conn Smythe)
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Bernie Geoffrion* 10 11 7 18
2 Jean Beliveau* 10 6 6 12
3 Maurice Richard* 10 8 3 11
4 Dickie Moore* 10 3 7 10
5 Bert Olmstead* 10 0 9 9

57-58
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Maurice Richard* 10 11 4 15
2 Jean Beliveau* 10 4 8 12
3 Bernie Geoffrion* 10 6 5 11
4 Dickie Moore* 10 4 7 11
5 Doug Harvey* 10 2 9 11

58-59
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Dickie Moore* 11 5 12 17
2 Marcel Bonin 11 10 5 15
3 Bernie Geoffrion* 11 5 8 13
4 Doug Harvey* 11 1 11 12
5 Henri Richard* 11 3 8 11

59-60
Rk Player GP G* A* PTS
1 Henri Richard* 8 3 9 12
2 Bernie Geoffrion* 8 2 10 12
3 Dickie Moore* 8 6 4 10
4 Jean Beliveau* 5 2 7
5 Marcel Bonin 1 4 5



Playoff VsX Best 5 years
Ironically the point could be made that the 1959 playoffs were Geoffrion's best. Playing without Beliveau since game 3 of the semis against Chicago, Geoffrion stagnated but put it back to gether in games four and five of the Finals against Toronto when on a makeshift line with Ralph Backstrom and Ab McDonald, he participated in six of the eight goals that the team scored en route to beating the Leafs in 5.

http://bigmouthsports.com/wp-content...maries-MTL.pdf

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04-10-2017, 03:56 PM
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Details

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Random thoughts from a non-voter:

One could easily make the argument that Guy Lafleur was the most important playoff performer on any Canadiens dynasty, right?

I think I like Orr better than Lemieux here. Both had some downs in the playoffs, but with the notable exception of 1971 (when he was putrid in his own zone - the video is embarrassing), I feel like Orr just brought the otherwordly play more consistently in the postseason.

If Orr and Lemieux (rightly) get criticized for some notable downs in the playoffs, Paul Coffey should too, right?

The Islanders went from being chokers to champs almost immediately after adding Bossy. That should count for something, right?

I also have a preference for Sakic over Forsberg, but I understand the argument to the contrary.

The case for Henry Richard - Why should he be much behind Messier? Messier rightfully gets mad credit in the playoffs for almost always outplaying his opposing center, no matter who that was, and winning playoff games for his team in doing so.
Well... Henry Richard did the same thing, whether it be Esposito, Clarke, etc.

The case against Henry Richard - Someone (Hockey Outsider?) posted in the HOH Top Players project that Richard's stats in the playoffs decline more than any star player on the Canadiens dynasty. Granted, he seems to have taken a more defensive role in the playoffs. But should he really be ahead of Sergei Fedorov, someone who played a strong two-way role in the playoffs and always brought the numbers?

I love Brodeur, but I feel like comparing him to Hasek and Belfour would be a worthwhile exercise when they all appear.
Ken Dryden, Serge Savard, Larry Robinson and Jacques Lemaire. The four allowed Guy Lafleur to play his game with little concern for other responsibilities.

Name another 1970s goalie that could replace Dryden and have the team win four in a row from 1976 to 1979?

Henri Richard. Was the youngest member of the Canadiens dynasty from 1956 to 1960 and per Frank Selke Sr the most important. Two key points. What Federov did for maybe five seasons, being generous, Henri Richard did during his complete career. Henri Richard's line played against the oppositions number one player - Hull, Howe, Bathgate, not the number one center like Messier did. Big difference given that Henri Richard did so his entire playoff career except when injured - 1962 or missing the playoffs 1970. plus in 1974 he and Steve Shutt led the Canadiens in scoring, other linemate Guy Lafleur was benched in game 1 in favour of Claude Larose.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 04-10-2017 at 09:28 PM.
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04-10-2017, 04:38 PM
  #16
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This is an interesting bunch of centers.

Defense
Nighbor, Trottier, Sakic, Forsberg and Richard were all good defensively. In this group Lemieux was clearly the worst.

If I'd try a defensive ranking it would probably look something like this:

1. Nighbor/Richard
2. Trottier
3. Forsberg
4. Sakic
5. Lemieux


Offense
Nighbor led the league in playoff scoring three times (1915, 1921, 1922), something only four other players have done (Esposito, Lafleur, Gretzky, Howe).

Trottier, Forsberg, Lemieux and Sakic all led the league in playoff scoring two times, and had several other strong offensive years.

In Richard's 11 Stanley Cups wins, he only finished among the top five scorers on his own TEAM three times. In this group he is clearly the worst offensively.

An attempted ranking for playoff offense:

1. Forsberg
2. Lemieux
3. Nighbor
4. Sakic
5. Trottier
6. Richard


Overall, I feel that Nighbor's defensive edge is bigger than any offensive edge between Forsberg/Lemieux and him. Nighbor won five cups playing on two different teams, usually being the best defensive player and three times the top offensive player. I'd probably consider him for the top spot among remaining centers.


Last edited by steve141: 04-10-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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04-10-2017, 05:46 PM
  #17
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Not disputing any of the above regarding Nighbor, but there's something I really hate about him at this moment, and it's the fact I'm not even sure he's the best playoff performer amongst players whose first name are Frank who dressed for the Ottawa Senators in 21-22.

And one must keep in mind that his Stanley Cup Finals numbers, before consolidation, aren't looking THAT great.

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04-10-2017, 05:58 PM
  #18
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There are currently two guys up for vote who had multiple Conn Smythe wins. Should Orr & Lemieux be favorites to make the top five this time?

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04-10-2017, 06:04 PM
  #19
BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
There are currently two guys up for vote who had multiple Conn Smythe wins. Should Orr & Lemieux be favorites to make the top five this time?
I think both Orr and Lemieux should get in as I already mentionned.Their runs were extremely dominant.I still prefer Guy Lafleur though.

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04-10-2017, 06:12 PM
  #20
Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Random initial thoughts:

-Guy Lafleur will most likely be my #1.
-Time for Orr and Lemieux to get in.
-Brodeur looks very bad.
-Bossy vs Geoffrion is interesting
-Undecided on H.Richard and Nighbor.
-Sakic > Forsberg.Sakic's best runs happened when Colorado won.He was also the soul of his team.
-Overall it's getting harder to rank all those guys.
I realize these are simple, old school type numbers. But I'll put them out there anyway:

Sakic 172 84-104-188 -2

Forsberg 154 64-107-171 +54

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04-10-2017, 06:14 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I think both Orr and Lemieux should get in as I already mentionned.Their runs were extremely dominant.I still prefer Guy Lafleur though.
I'm fine with Lafleur going in now, too.

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04-10-2017, 07:16 PM
  #22
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Four-round era: Top runs adjusted to 200 GA environment. (minimum top-3 scorer)

YearPlayerPPGAvg GAGA-82Adj PPG
1992 Mario Lemieux 2.267 259.3 265.8 1.706
1991 Mario Lemieux 1.913 263.3 269.8 1.418
2002 Peter Forsberg 1.350 192.0 192.0 1.406
1985 Paul Coffey 2.056 294.7 302.1 1.361
1997 Joe Sakic 1.471 216.3 216.3 1.360
1999 Peter Forsberg 1.263 186.0 186.0 1.358
1996 Joe Sakic 1.546 227.7 227.7 1.358
1996 Mario Lemieux 1.500 224.8 224.8 1.334
1981 Mike Bossy 1.944 313.7 321.5 1.209
2001 Joe Sakic 1.238 212.5 212.5 1.165
1980 Mike Bossy 1.438 245.3 251.5 1.144
1980 Bryan Trottier 1.381 245.3 251.5 1.098
1981 Bryan Trottier 1.611 313.7 321.5 1.002
1982 Bryan Trottier 1.526 318.2 326.1 0.936
1982 Mike Bossy 1.421 318.2 326.1 0.871


The Islanders were shooting on some pretty weak defensive teams in 1981 and 1982.

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Old
04-10-2017, 09:06 PM
  #23
Canadiens1958
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Major Oops

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
This is an interesting bunch of centers.

Defense
Nighbor, Trottier, Sakic, Forsberg and Richard were all good defensively. In this group Lemieux was clearly the worst.

If I'd try a defensive ranking it would probably look something like this:

1. Nighbor/Richard
2. Trottier
3. Forsberg
4. Sakic
5. Lemieux


Offense
Nighbor led the league in playoff scoring three times (1915, 1921, 1922), something only four other players have done (Esposito, Lafleur, Gretzky, Howe).

Trottier, Forsberg, Lemieux and Sakic all led the league in playoff scoring two times, and had several other strong offensive years.

In Richard's 11 Stanley Cups wins, he only finished among the top five scorers on his own TEAM three times. In this group he is clearly the worst offensively.

An attempted ranking for playoff offense:

1. Forsberg
2. Lemieux
3. Nighbor
4. Sakic
5. Trottier
6. Richard


Overall, I feel that Nighbor's defensive edge is bigger than any offensive edge between Forsberg/Lemieux and him. Nighbor won five cups playing on two different teams, usually being the best defensive player and three times the top offensive player. I'd probably consider him for the top spot among remaining centers.
Major oops. 1960 playoffs. Henri Richard lead the NHL in playoff scoring:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...richahe01.html

Tied with Geoffrion but goal scoring tiebreaker favours Henri Richard. Third was Red Kelly with 11 points in 10 games which brings us to the major flaw in your presentation. It penalizes players who were efficient in ending the series promptly.

Also it does not fully explain the nature of playoff hockey. Example 1958 playoffs:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1958.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BOS/1958.html

1958 Bruins made the finals by beating the Rangers in six. Key was Milt Schmidt juggling lines around a makeshift forward pairing that featured Don McKenney and Fleming Mackell, two centers who could play wing.The other winger tended to be Jerry Toppazzini but a rotation filled the position - Larry Regan, Doug Mohns a forward / defenceman,

Mackell scored 14 points against the Rangers while McKenney scored 12 points. In the final against the Canadiens, Henri Richard, Maurice Richard and Dickie Moore, the Mackell and McKenney pairing with a variable winger was held to a combined 10 points. One goal out of the center slot that was Mackell. Being generous adding six points for the variable winger but then subtract the 11 PPG points the players in question generated yielding a balance of 5 non ppg points.

The two Richards and Moore combined for 14 pts with only 3 PPG. Obvious that Henri Richard and his linemates easily won the match-up. Winning is all that matters.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 04-10-2017 at 09:25 PM.
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Old
04-11-2017, 12:24 AM
  #24
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All data has been compiled in good faith. Let me know if you see any errors.

Here's some raw data to (hopefully) start the discussion:

MOST TIMES LEADING TEAM IN GOALS IN PLAYOFFS

Player Times
Joe Sakic* 7
Mario Lemieux* 6
Mike Bossy* 6
Peter Forsberg* 5
Bernie Geoffrion* 4
Guy Lafleur* 4
Bryan Trottier* 3
Red Kelly* 3
Bobby Orr* 1
Paul Coffey* 1
Nicklas Lidstrom* 1
Henri Richard* 0
Larry Robinson* 0

MOST TIMES LEADING TEAM IN ASSISTS IN PLAYOFFS

Player Times
Peter Forsberg* 6
Guy Lafleur* 5
Nicklas Lidstrom* 5
Bryan Trottier* 5
Bobby Orr* 4
Larry Robinson* 4
Mario Lemieux* 3
Joe Sakic* 3
Red Kelly* 3
Mike Bossy* 3
Bernie Geoffrion* 2
Paul Coffey* 2
Henri Richard* 1

MOST TIMES LEADING TEAM IN POINTS IN PLAYOFFS

Player Times
Joe Sakic* 8
Mario Lemieux* 7
Guy Lafleur* 7
Peter Forsberg* 6
Bernie Geoffrion* 4
Bobby Orr* 3
Bryan Trottier* 3
Mike Bossy* 3
Red Kelly* 2
Nicklas Lidstrom* 2
Larry Robinson* 2
Henri Richard* 2
Paul Coffey* 2

MOST TIMES PLACING IN TOP FIVE IN PLAYOFFS - GOALS

Player1st2nd3rd4th5thTotal
Bernie Geoffrion* 2 1 1 2 2 8
Guy Lafleur* 2 1 2 5
Mike Bossy* 3 1 4
Mario Lemieux* 1 2 1 4
Joe Sakic* 2 1 3
Peter Forsberg* 1 1 1 3
Henri Richard* 1 1 1 3
Bryan Trottier* 1 1 2
Red Kelly* 1 1 2
Paul Coffey* 1 1
Bobby Orr* 1 1
Larry Robinson* 0
Nicklas Lidstrom* 0

MOST TIMES PLACING IN TOP FIVE IN PLAYOFFS - ASSISTS

Player1st2nd3rd4th5thTotal
Bernie Geoffrion* 1 2 1 1 5
Guy Lafleur* 2 1 1 4
Bobby Orr* 2 2 4
Joe Sakic* 1 1 1 1 4
Larry Robinson* 1 2 1 4
Bryan Trottier* 2 1 3
Mario Lemieux* 1 2 3
Peter Forsberg* 1 1 1 3
Henri Richard* 1 1 1 3
Paul Coffey* 1 1 1 3
Red Kelly* 1 2 3
Mike Bossy* 1 1 2
Nicklas Lidstrom* 1 1 2

MOST TIMES PLACING IN TOP FIVE IN PLAYOFFS - POINTS

Player1st2nd3rd4th5thTotal
Bernie Geoffrion* 2 3 1 1 7
Guy Lafleur* 3 1 1 5
Joe Sakic* 2 1 1 1 5
Mike Bossy* 1 2 1 4
Bryan Trottier* 2 1 3
Mario Lemieux* 2 1 3
Peter Forsberg* 2 1 3
Bobby Orr* 1 1 1 3
Henri Richard* 1 2 3
Paul Coffey* 1 1 1 3
Nicklas Lidstrom* 1 1 2
Red Kelly* 1 1 2
Larry Robinson* 1 1

PLAYERS WHO SCORED LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF THEIR TEAMS' GOALS (MIN 50 GAMES)

PlayerGPGoalsTMGPercentage
Mario Lemieux* 107 76 391 19.4%
Joe Sakic* 172 84 503 16.7%
Mike Bossy* 129 85 530 16%
Bernie Geoffrion* 132 58 391 14.8%
Peter Forsberg* 151 64 493 13%
Guy Lafleur* 128 58 488 11.9%
Bobby Orr* 74 26 287 9.1%
Bryan Trottier* 221 71 830 8.6%
Henri Richard* 180 49 634 7.7%
Red Kelly* 164 33 446 7.4%
Paul Coffey* 194 59 867 6.8%
Nicklas Lidstrom* 263 54 812 6.7%
Larry Robinson* 227 28 832 3.4%

PLAYERS WHO ASSISTED ON LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF THEIR TEAMS' GOALS (MIN 50 GAMES)

PlayerGPAssistsTMGPercentage
Mario Lemieux* 107 96 391 24.6%
Bobby Orr* 74 66 287 23%
Peter Forsberg* 151 107 493 21.7%
Joe Sakic* 172 104 503 20.7%
Nicklas Lidstrom* 263 129 812 15.9%
Paul Coffey* 194 137 867 15.8%
Guy Lafleur* 128 76 488 15.6%
Bernie Geoffrion* 132 60 391 15.3%
Mike Bossy* 129 75 530 14.2%
Larry Robinson* 227 116 832 13.9%
Bryan Trottier* 221 113 830 13.6%
Red Kelly* 164 59 446 13.2%
Henri Richard* 180 80 634 12.6%

PLAYERS WHO SCORED OR ASSISTED ON LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF THEIR TEAMS' GOALS (MIN 50 GAMES)

PlayerGPPointsTMGPercentage
Mario Lemieux* 107 172 391 44%
Joe Sakic* 172 188 503 37.4%
Peter Forsberg* 151 171 493 34.7%
Bobby Orr* 74 92 287 32.1%
Mike Bossy* 129 160 530 30.2%
Bernie Geoffrion* 132 118 391 30.2%
Guy Lafleur* 128 134 488 27.5%
Paul Coffey* 194 196 867 22.6%
Nicklas Lidstrom* 263 183 812 22.5%
Bryan Trottier* 221 184 830 22.2%
Red Kelly* 164 92 446 20.6%
Henri Richard* 180 129 634 20.3%
Larry Robinson* 227 144 832 17.3%

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Old
04-11-2017, 09:40 AM
  #25
MXD
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HO, I see there's nothing on Frank Nighbor in your tables. Is he just "out of the purview" of the tables due to the era he played in?

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