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Round 2, Vote 3 (Stanley Cup Playoff Performers)

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Old
04-13-2017, 11:22 PM
  #101
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Start our look at Frank Nighbor with comments from Howie Morenz and Frank Selke Sr:

http://ottawahockeylegends.blogspot....k-nighbor.html

1927 Playoffs :

http://bigmouthsports.com/wp-content...scores-OTT.pdf

Lead center on a team that held Howie Morenz and Eddie Shore scoreless,over a total of six playoff games.
Some more information on Nighbor from the Trail of the Stanley Cup:

1915, Nighbor was on the Vancouver Millionaires club that smoked Ottawa in the Cup Challenge series. Reference is made to his outstanding defensive play even at this early stage of his career, and he produced strong offense as well. Nighbor was playing RW on this great team (Cyclone Taylor was at C during eastern rules games, Mickey Mackay C during western rules when Taylor shifted to rover).

1917, Ottawa lost the NHA Final to Montreal. Newsy Lalonde butt-ended Nighbor in the head in the first game, injuring him. He continued to play, but was apparently not his usual self as Ottawa narrowly lost the series.

1919, Nighbor missed the first three games of the best-of-7 NHL Final, and the Senators got pumped for 19 goals against, falling behind 3-0. He returned in Game 4, and Ottawa won 6-3. They bowed out with a 4-2 loss in the next game, but Nighbor was described as their best player in the game.

1920, Nighbor led the Senators will 6 goals in the Cup Final as they defeated Seattle 3-2 in the best-of-5. There were no NHL playoffs this year as Ottawa finished first in both halves of the schedule.

1921, Ottawa advanced to the Stanley Cup series by defeating Toronto without allowing a goal against. They won the Cup 3-2 over Vancouver. Jack Darragh seems to have been the star of this particular series, and little mention is made of Nighbor.

1922, Ottawa lost the NHL final to Toronto, 5 goals to 4. Nighbor had two goals for Ottawa.

1923, Ottawa won the Cup for the third time in four years. Nighbor isn't described in much detail, other than to say Duke Keats went up against him in the Cup Final and made little headway against "the peerless Ottawa center". The Senators only allowed 10 goals against in 8 playoff games.

1924, Senators defeated in the NHL final by Montreal. Morenz seems to have won the match-up with Nighbor, scoring three goals while Frank was held off the scoresheet.

1925, Ottawa again lost the NHL final, this time to the Maroons, losing the total goals series 2-1. Montreal had little trouble scoring in their other playoff games but Ottawa held them in relatively in check.

1927, Nighbor's defensive play was lauded in the semi-final against Montreal, this time out-dueling Morenz. Ottawa defeated Boston to win the Cup, the Bruins held to three goals in the four games.

1928, Ottawa lost two game/total goals to the Maroons, 3-1. Nighbor is described as still being a top notch defensive player, but starting to lose pace offensively.

Nighbor seems to have been a driving force behind his teams' success in the early portion of his career. His defensive play seems to have seldom wavered. Denneny, Darragh, and Broadbent seemed to get more mention than Nighbor when describing Ottawa's victories in the mid-to-late part of his career. He seems to have taken more of a back seat offensively at this point. It doesn't appear that Nighbor ever had a bad playoff, if he may be forgiven for losing a match-up to Morenz in 1924. 1915 and 1920 might have seen him win a Conn Smythe had such a thing existed.

Nighbor is by far the earliest candidate available, but he has a large body of work considering the era he played in. I think I can put him ahead of Sakic among centers. Both had two Smythe-caliber runs. Both had seasons where they were over-shadowed by teammates. Nighbor's defensive play is the determining factor. I'd say Forsberg tops him offensively, but does that make up for the defensive gap? That's a close call. Forsberg never had a Smythe-quality playoff on a Cup winner either. Lemieux and Nighbor is such an apples and oranges comparison. I really don't like how lousy Lemieux appears to have been defensively though, and his results late in playoff series aren't spectacular either. I might lean towards Nighbor in that one as well. Richard seems to be a good comparison in a lot of ways. Both could be valuable contributors without scoring. I think the 1915-1920 version of Nighbor might have been better. He seems very Richard-like from 1921 onwards.

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04-14-2017, 03:36 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
1917, Ottawa lost the NHA Final to Montreal. Newsy Lalonde butt-ended Nighbor in the head in the first game, injuring him. He continued to play, but was apparently not his usual self as Ottawa narrowly lost the series.
That might be a bit of an understatement. The (probably biased) Ottawa Citizen suggests that Montreal deliberately targeted Nighbor. He was knocked out and had to be carried off the ice three times, after being cross checked by Smith, jabbed in the face by Lalonde, and finally slashed by Lalonde.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Nighbor seems to have been a driving force behind his teams' success in the early portion of his career. His defensive play seems to have seldom wavered. Denneny, Darragh, and Broadbent seemed to get more mention than Nighbor when describing Ottawa's victories in the mid-to-late part of his career. He seems to have taken more of a back seat offensively at this point. It doesn't appear that Nighbor ever had a bad playoff, if he may be forgiven for losing a match-up to Morenz in 1924. 1915 and 1920 might have seen him win a Conn Smythe had such a thing existed.
One frustrating part about this era is that assists weren't consistently recorded. As Nighbor was primarily a playmaker, its difficult to get a sense of his offense just from the box scores. We really need to read the news paper reports to determine his offensive performance in different seasons.


Last edited by steve141: 04-14-2017 at 03:44 AM.
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04-14-2017, 05:39 AM
  #103
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Your version of the trap?

I won't be the one to bite.
Didn't you know that Thomas won the Vezina, Conn Smythe, and posted a .940 SV% in the playoffs with smoke and mirrors that year?

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04-14-2017, 05:48 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
SV% being selective. Global SV% by the Flyers goaltenders in 2010 had little to do with their success. If they kept the opposition from crashing the net they stood a chance. Against Chicago, Pronger could not keep Byfuglien and the larger Chicago forwards from crashing the net so the Flyers goaltending was exposed.

Basic situation with the Wings in the series listed was that they could not adapt to the circumstances of the series, the offence that the opposition was throwing at them. Which brings us back to the team protecting their goaltender.
You just pointed to the Flyers in '10 as overcoming poor goaltending. Now you're pointing to them for not overcoming it. Heh?

It's far too simple to blame the Red Wings goaltending troubles on simply letting teams crash the net. If it was that simple, 1) why didn't everyone do it?, and 2) they had Holmstrom so they did it as much as anyone and it still shows they had lesser goaltending than their opposition, 3) don't elite goaltenders have better capabilities of dealing with getting "crashed" anyways? Legace, for instance, was like 5 and a half feet tall so blaming his short comings on their defense cause they didn't protect him enough seems like a very weak argument.

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04-14-2017, 05:59 AM
  #105
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Great work, Kyle McMahon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
One frustrating part about this era is that assists weren't consistently recorded. As Nighbor was primarily a playmaker, its difficult to get a sense of his offense just from the box scores. We really need to read the news paper reports to determine his offensive performance in different seasons.
That's a good point. Jack Darragh may be putting the finishing touch on some timely goals, but if Nighbor is putting it on his stick more often than is reported in those later years - on top of his defensive play - he's a strong candidate for top center this round.

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04-14-2017, 09:17 AM
  #106
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Great Job

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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Some more information on Nighbor from the Trail of the Stanley Cup:

1915, Nighbor was on the Vancouver Millionaires club that smoked Ottawa in the Cup Challenge series. Reference is made to his outstanding defensive play even at this early stage of his career, and he produced strong offense as well. Nighbor was playing RW on this great team (Cyclone Taylor was at C during eastern rules games, Mickey Mackay C during western rules when Taylor shifted to rover).

1917, Ottawa lost the NHA Final to Montreal. Newsy Lalonde butt-ended Nighbor in the head in the first game, injuring him. He continued to play, but was apparently not his usual self as Ottawa narrowly lost the series.

1919, Nighbor missed the first three games of the best-of-7 NHL Final, and the Senators got pumped for 19 goals against, falling behind 3-0. He returned in Game 4, and Ottawa won 6-3. They bowed out with a 4-2 loss in the next game, but Nighbor was described as their best player in the game.

1920, Nighbor led the Senators will 6 goals in the Cup Final as they defeated Seattle 3-2 in the best-of-5. There were no NHL playoffs this year as Ottawa finished first in both halves of the schedule.

1921, Ottawa advanced to the Stanley Cup series by defeating Toronto without allowing a goal against. They won the Cup 3-2 over Vancouver. Jack Darragh seems to have been the star of this particular series, and little mention is made of Nighbor.

1922, Ottawa lost the NHL final to Toronto, 5 goals to 4. Nighbor had two goals for Ottawa.

1923, Ottawa won the Cup for the third time in four years. Nighbor isn't described in much detail, other than to say Duke Keats went up against him in the Cup Final and made little headway against "the peerless Ottawa center". The Senators only allowed 10 goals against in 8 playoff games.

1924, Senators defeated in the NHL final by Montreal. Morenz seems to have won the match-up with Nighbor, scoring three goals while Frank was held off the scoresheet.

1925, Ottawa again lost the NHL final, this time to the Maroons, losing the total goals series 2-1. Montreal had little trouble scoring in their other playoff games but Ottawa held them in relatively in check.

1927, Nighbor's defensive play was lauded in the semi-final against Montreal, this time out-dueling Morenz. Ottawa defeated Boston to win the Cup, the Bruins held to three goals in the four games.

1928, Ottawa lost two game/total goals to the Maroons, 3-1. Nighbor is described as still being a top notch defensive player, but starting to lose pace offensively.

Nighbor seems to have been a driving force behind his teams' success in the early portion of his career. His defensive play seems to have seldom wavered. Denneny, Darragh, and Broadbent seemed to get more mention than Nighbor when describing Ottawa's victories in the mid-to-late part of his career. He seems to have taken more of a back seat offensively at this point. It doesn't appear that Nighbor ever had a bad playoff, if he may be forgiven for losing a match-up to Morenz in 1924. 1915 and 1920 might have seen him win a Conn Smythe had such a thing existed.

Nighbor is by far the earliest candidate available, but he has a large body of work considering the era he played in. I think I can put him ahead of Sakic among centers. Both had two Smythe-caliber runs. Both had seasons where they were over-shadowed by teammates. Nighbor's defensive play is the determining factor. I'd say Forsberg tops him offensively, but does that make up for the defensive gap? That's a close call. Forsberg never had a Smythe-quality playoff on a Cup winner either. Lemieux and Nighbor is such an apples and oranges comparison. I really don't like how lousy Lemieux appears to have been defensively though, and his results late in playoff series aren't spectacular either. I might lean towards Nighbor in that one as well. Richard seems to be a good comparison in a lot of ways. Both could be valuable contributors without scoring. I think the 1915-1920 version of Nighbor might have been better. He seems very Richard-like from 1921 onwards.
Great job. Saved a lot of work at this end.

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04-14-2017, 09:20 AM
  #107
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What It Took.

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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
You just pointed to the Flyers in '10 as overcoming poor goaltending. Now you're pointing to them for not overcoming it. Heh?

It's far too simple to blame the Red Wings goaltending troubles on simply letting teams crash the net. If it was that simple, 1) why didn't everyone do it?, and 2) they had Holmstrom so they did it as much as anyone and it still shows they had lesser goaltending than their opposition, 3) don't elite goaltenders have better capabilities of dealing with getting "crashed" anyways? Legace, for instance, was like 5 and a half feet tall so blaming his short comings on their defense cause they didn't protect him enough seems like a very weak argument.
No, just pointing out what it took to overcome weak goaltending. Effectively Pronger and the Oilers did with Roloson in 2006 what Lidstrom and the Red Wings could not do with Legace.

2010 Hawks learned from the one game the Flyers lost to the Canadiens - when they crashed the net. Four loses the Canadiens played perimeter hockey.

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04-14-2017, 09:37 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
No, just pointing out what it took to overcome weak goaltending. Effectively Pronger and the Oilers did with Roloson in 2006 what Lidstrom and the Red Wings could not do with Legace.

2010 Hawks learned from the one game the Flyers lost to the Canadiens - when they crashed the net. Four loses the Canadiens played perimeter hockey.
Claiming Roloson provided weak goaltending for the Oilers in '06 and claiming the Red Wings should have overcome the awful play by Legace just makes me realize you have no clue what you're talking about in both instances. Serious question, did you watch that first round series and did you continue watching the Oilers run to the finals?

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04-14-2017, 10:22 AM
  #109
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Please show actual evidence of this assertion about Henri Richard. If he was always at his playoff level then the NHL would have had its first 100 point player ´Henri Richard around 1960.
That makes sense, until you realize that Henri Richard was the 5th player on the 1960 Canadiens to produce at a 1.5+ PPG clip in a given playoff year, with Maurice, Beliveau, Geoffrion and Moore all doing it BEFORE 1960, twice in some cases, and that Henri never even came close of doing it before or after.


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04-14-2017, 10:30 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
You just pointed to the Flyers in '10 as overcoming poor goaltending. Now you're pointing to them for not overcoming it. Heh?

It's far too simple to blame the Red Wings goaltending troubles on simply letting teams crash the net. If it was that simple, 1) why didn't everyone do it?, and 2) they had Holmstrom so they did it as much as anyone and it still shows they had lesser goaltending than their opposition, 3) don't elite goaltenders have better capabilities of dealing with getting "crashed" anyways? Legace, for instance, was like 5 and a half feet tall so blaming his short comings on their defense cause they didn't protect him enough seems like a very weak argument.
Ehh...then, wouldn't that be the very point in, you know, preventing other teams to crash the net?

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04-14-2017, 10:35 AM
  #111
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The Gazette

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That might be a bit of an understatement. The (probably biased) Ottawa Citizen suggests that Montreal deliberately targeted Nighbor. He was knocked out and had to be carried off the ice three times, after being cross checked by Smith, jabbed in the face by Lalonde, and finally slashed by Lalonde.



One frustrating part about this era is that assists weren't consistently recorded. As Nighbor was primarily a playmaker, its difficult to get a sense of his offense just from the box scores. We really need to read the news paper reports to determine his offensive performance in different seasons.
Not the clearest copy, but The Gazette, March 8, 1917, had a similar report about Lalonde butt-ending Nighbor.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...1594%2C1251337

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04-14-2017, 10:38 AM
  #112
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(As a sidenote -- 70ies, is Gretzky an outlier in this version?).
yes, usually if not always.

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04-14-2017, 10:38 AM
  #113
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So.....

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That makes sense, until you realize that Henri Richard was the 5th player on the 1960 Canadiens to produce at a 1.5+ PPG clip in a given playoff year, with Maurice, Beliveau, Geoffrion and Moore all doing it BEFORE 1960, twice in some cases, and that Henri never even came close of doing it before or after.
So what happened to the alleged "Richardedness", constant every time play? As demonstrated Henri Richard was exceptional and unique in the playoffs, especially defensively.

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04-14-2017, 10:40 AM
  #114
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Outlier

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yes, usually if not always.
Brief comment. Outliers are just that. Does not make them the best or appropriate for winning conditions.

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04-14-2017, 10:41 AM
  #115
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So what happened to the alleged "Richardedness", constant every time play? As demonstrated Henri Richard was exceptional and unique in the playoffs, especially defensively.
It happened that he had a great run offense-wise, which mostly serves to compensate for his somewhat slightly lower output otherwise?

And my point was mostly on his defense anyways.

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04-14-2017, 10:43 AM
  #116
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What...

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It happened that he had a great run offense-wise, which mostly serves to compensate for his somewhat lower output otherwise?
Check his 1956 and other playoff outputs, 1960 was not the only one.

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04-14-2017, 11:25 AM
  #117
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One frustrating part about this era is that assists weren't consistently recorded. As Nighbor was primarily a playmaker, its difficult to get a sense of his offense just from the box scores. We really need to read the news paper reports to determine his offensive performance in different seasons.
This is true. TOTSC is a great resource, but only offers a snippet of information on individual games in most cases unless something noteworthy happened. Goal scorers get mentioned before playmakers in most instances.

Hockey Reference does provide assist totals. Nighbor is credited with 9 in 20 career playoff games in the NHL, which is actually a lot in an era that was stingy with assists. (And stingy in goal scoring period in 10 games of the sample.)

I believe the NHL tracked assists beginning in 1919, so I'm assuming these totals were compiled from some sort of game sheets that somebody gained access to, or they were reported in the newspapers. Assist totals for Nighbor's SC Finals series (excluding 1927 which was the end of the challenge era) are reported as 6 in 1915, and one each in 1920-21-23. I'm not entirely sure where this information was dug up, or how official it was. To the best of my knowledge, the NHA and 1918 NHL did not officially record assists, but they are given in all of those seasons on Hockey Reference. For all I know they could have been compiled by members of SIHR retroactively as a "best guess" based on newspaper accounts of the games.

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04-14-2017, 11:48 AM
  #118
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Ehh...then, wouldn't that be the very point in, you know, preventing other teams to crash the net?
The point is would you rather have Legace against a team that's trying to crash your net or a goalie who is half a foot taller and 40 lbs. heavier?

A team would probably have to over compensate to protect a small goalie like that so it's kind of strange to put the blame on the defense rather than the goalie.

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04-14-2017, 11:51 AM
  #119
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The point is would you rather have Legace against a team that's trying to crash your net or a goalie who is half a foot taller and 40 lbs. heavier?

A team would probably have to over compensate to protect a small goalie like that so it's kind of strange to put the blame on the defense rather than the goalie.
...The strange thing would actually to put the blame on the goalie. Skaters (and D-Men in particular) can prevent opponents from crashing the next. Manny Legace can't gain 6 inches and 40 pounds.

In fact, if a team dresses a goalie like Legace, it should PROBABLY expect the opponent to netcrash.

That's also obviously on the Coach/GM.


Last edited by MXD: 04-14-2017 at 11:59 AM.
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04-14-2017, 12:58 PM
  #120
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Brief comment. Outliers are just that. Does not make them the best or appropriate for winning conditions.
I was just answering MXD's question. Gretzky was treated as a statistical outlier for playoff VsX in most seasons he led the playoffs in scoring, because comparing a player with 15 points to his total in 1985, as opposed to the leaders in 1986, would make that player look far inferior even though he's no better or worse. that's all.

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04-14-2017, 06:35 PM
  #121
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Defensive Play

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It happened that he had a great run offense-wise, which mostly serves to compensate for his somewhat slightly lower output otherwise?

And my point was mostly on his defense anyways.
Henri Richard contributing defensively is best exemplified by looking at the 1962 semi finals which he missed due to injury and the 1965 Finals which he played a leading role. Both times against Chicago:

1962: http://bigmouthsports.com/wp-content...scores-TOR.pdf

1965: http://bigmouthsports.com/wp-content...scores-MTL.pdf

Both years the Canadiens won a two game advantage at home. 1962 without Henri Richard and playing away the advantage quickly evaporated as the Canadiens could not contain the Hawks offensively. The 1962 team had Hart Trophy winner in goal.

1965, with Henri Richard, Canadiens won the first two games at home, going on to win all four home games, last three were shutouts while the Richard line held Bobby Hull scoreless at ES at the Forum. Richard contributed 3 ES points at the Forum. This type of exceptional defensive play is extremely rare. Ted Kennedy to a degree but Kennedy never shut down shut down a Bobby Hull quality forward for over 3 games with a goalie tandem of Worsley and Hodge or any goalie for that matter.

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04-14-2017, 06:50 PM
  #122
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2005-06 Red Wings

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...The strange thing would actually to put the blame on the goalie. Skaters (and D-Men in particular) can prevent opponents from crashing the next. Manny Legace can't gain 6 inches and 40 pounds.

In fact, if a team dresses a goalie like Legace, it should PROBABLY expect the opponent to netcrash.

That's also obviously on the Coach/GM.
2005-06 Red Wings featured Manny Legace as the number one goalie, finishing first in the Central Division and second amongst 30 teams in GA.

Legace stats:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...legacma01.html

2005-06 Red Wings:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/2006.html

No coaching change between the RS and the first round of the playoffs. Legace did not shrink. Pronger and co, protected Roloson against Holmstrom and Franzen.

Lidstrom and co did not do the same for Legace evidenced by the -4, Chelios, Kronwall, Lebda were zero or plus players.Schneider despite great offensive totals was a liability as well.

RS Roloson was a depth goalie, 3 or 4th on the Oilers, definitely weaker than Legace:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/EDM/2006.html

So what happened or did not happen? Answer seems to point at Lidstrom losing the match-up with Promger.

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04-14-2017, 07:16 PM
  #123
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2005-06 Red Wings featured Manny Legace as the number one goalie, finishing first in the Central Division and second amongst 30 teams in GA.

Legace stats:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...legacma01.html

2005-06 Red Wings:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/2006.html

No coaching change between the RS and the first round of the playoffs. Legace did not shrink. Pronger and co, protected Roloson against Holmstrom and Franzen.

Lidstrom and co did not do the same for Legace evidenced by the -4, Chelios, Kronwall, Lebda were zero or plus players.Schneider despite great offensive totals was a liability as well.

RS Roloson was a depth goalie, 3 or 4th on the Oilers, definitely weaker than Legace:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/EDM/2006.html

So what happened or did not happen? Answer seems to point at Lidstrom losing the match-up with Promger.
I actually watched that series and followed reports in between games. You clearly didn't. Legace basically had a mental breakdown during the series and was quickly cast off afterwards in favour of a 42 year old Hasek, with Detroit being a major threat to win the following 3 years. Your summary of the series amounts to a guess of what happened based on stats. There's a reason why there aren't small goalies like Legace in the NHL anymore. Not only that, but he proved he couldn't handle the pressure of being the starter in Detroit. Experiment over. I don't care what Roloson's past or future was apart from that playoff run, he was great then and everyone knew it. His injury in the finals is one of the recent big "what if's".

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04-14-2017, 07:37 PM
  #124
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Watched?

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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
I actually watched that series and followed reports in between games. You clearly didn't. Legace basically had a mental breakdown during the series and was quickly cast off afterwards in favour of a 42 year old Hasek, with Detroit being a major threat to win the following 3 years. Your summary of the series amounts to a guess of what happened based on stats. There's a reason why there aren't small goalies like Legace in the NHL anymore. Not only that, but he proved he couldn't handle the pressure of being the starter in Detroit. Experiment over. I don't care what Roloson's past or future was apart from that playoff run, he was great then and everyone knew it. His injury in the finals is one of the recent big "what if's".
Watched every playoff series since the mid fifties and your revisionism is hilarious. Just using numbers to support what was witnessed. Per game 6, 2006 against the Oilers. Lidstrom is on for how many goals against? Does he even take away the stick from potential shooters in the slot or the crease. Ot asking him to be physical, just basic Pee Wee hockey, take away the stick, skate/leverage the opposing players from the slot / crease.

Manny Legace was the same height as Chris Osgood, 20 lbs heavier:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...legacma01.html

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04-14-2017, 09:19 PM
  #125
danincanada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Watched every playoff series since the mid fifties and your revisionism is hilarious. Just using numbers to support what was witnessed. Per game 6, 2006 against the Oilers. Lidstrom is on for how many goals against? Does he even take away the stick from potential shooters in the slot or the crease. Ot asking him to be physical, just basic Pee Wee hockey, take away the stick, skate/leverage the opposing players from the slot / crease.

Manny Legace was the same height as Chris Osgood, 20 lbs heavier:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...legacma01.html
I'm glad you weren't the Red Wings GM because it sounds like you would have got rid of Lidstrom due to his lack of peewee skills and kept Legace. Luckily their management had much better judgement than you and they enjoyed more playoff success than any other team the next 3 years with that peewee captain Lidstrom and different goalies.

Legace allowed 18 goals on 155 shots in that series while Roloson allowed 17 on 238 shots. The only revisionist history here is from you pretending Legace was anything but poor and Roloson was anything but great.

Legace was not 5'10". My family met him and he was 5'8" or 5'9" at best. I guess they just knew how to protect Osgood better, or maybe he was just a better goalie than Legace?

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