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what would the sens want for vermette...

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Old
02-11-2006, 06:46 PM
  #1
shayne
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what would the sens want for vermette...

i put this here instead of the sens board because i wanted a cross section of opinion, i sometimes offer my proposal but get slammed so i ask the board, if the another team wanted vermette what would Muckler want in return?

i would think a scoring forward for the versatile vermette or a solid prospect and a pick maybe

what do you guys think?

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02-12-2006, 08:17 AM
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Bill Ladd
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I think Vermette, Eaves or Bochenski could get you a second line scorer or an elite checker. I've heard lots of posted rumors that Ottawa is looking for a second line center, but I don't know why. Most teams in the league envy the fact that you have a guy like Fisher as your 2nd line center: a big, rugged center who's excellent defensively, tough to play against and could score 30 goals. He & Havlat will be part of one of the best second lines in the playoffs.

If I were Ott, I'd go for an elite checking center in the Tim Taylor mold: who can win key defensive zone faceoffs and shut down the opposition's top scorers. Someone like Walz, Ricci, Halpern, Peca, Malhotra, etc. You've got enough scoring and defense wins in the post-season.

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02-12-2006, 08:32 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wladd77
I've heard lots of posted rumors that Ottawa is looking for a second line center, but I don't know why. Most teams in the league envy the fact that you have a guy like Fisher as your 2nd line center: a big, rugged center who's excellent defensively, tough to play against and could score 30 goals. He & Havlat will be part of one of the best second lines in the playoffs.

If I were Ott, I'd go for an elite checking center in the Tim Taylor mold: who can win key defensive zone faceoffs and shut down the opposition's top scorers. Someone like Walz, Ricci, Halpern, Peca, Malhotra, etc. You've got enough scoring and defense wins in the post-season.
Well thats a good point but most Sens fans including myself believe the line of Schaefer-Fisher-Neil is one of the best third lines in the league. If the Sens canget a solid number 2 center to play with Havlat that would be much more effective in the offensive depth. Defensive wins in the playoffs and i see no reason why Fisher can't be an elite checking center come playoff time his game is taylor made to do that. A solid second line of Smolinski-Jokinen(or whoever)-Havlat is more appealing to me because it will draw attention away from the CASH line. Either that or Havlat and his playmaking center will run all over opposing teams cause no team has the defensive pieces to shut down two first lines and an elite 3rd line.

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02-12-2006, 09:57 AM
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Bill Ladd
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The CASH line is arguably the best line in the league, no second line is going to take draw the oppositions checkers or take attention away from that. Ottawa should fix their problems, not strengthen their strengths. You don't need any more scoring, but you do need a top faceoff guy. Fisher's around 48% on draws, whereas guys like Peca, Halpern or Malhotra win 55% of their draws and all of them have more face-off wins than anyone on your team, plus, they'll be significantly easier to acquire. I know it's not sexy, but it works.

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02-12-2006, 10:05 AM
  #5
shayne
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not often you get a second line player for a 4th line player unless...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wladd77
I think Vermette, Eaves or Bochenski could get you a second line scorer or an elite checker. I've heard lots of posted rumors that Ottawa is looking for a second line center, but I don't know why. Most teams in the league envy the fact that you have a guy like Fisher as your 2nd line center: a big, rugged center who's excellent defensively, tough to play against and could score 30 goals. He & Havlat will be part of one of the best second lines in the playoffs.

If I were Ott, I'd go for an elite checking center in the Tim Taylor mold: who can win key defensive zone faceoffs and shut down the opposition's top scorers. Someone like Walz, Ricci, Halpern, Peca, Malhotra, etc. You've got enough scoring and defense wins in the post-season.
...you take on salary, would you take zednik for vermette, zednik would fit in well with the sens speed game and he has a good record in the playoffs, he is just struggling a bit in montreal and perhaps a chamge in address, i also don't think his salary is out of wack and he is not a headcase, i just wonder if vermette could play well in montreal and if he had more of a roll would he crumble or thrive

zednik for vermette??

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02-12-2006, 10:08 AM
  #6
The Fuhr
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But I think the opposition would have to take checkers away from the CASH line if Havlat was playing with an elite second line center in the Jokinen mold. Your not going to put second teir defensive players on the ice against Havlat and Jokinen, you will get ran over if you do that. Havlat will have a field day picking the opposition appart.

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02-12-2006, 11:42 AM
  #7
Bill Ladd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shayne
not often you get a second line player for a 4th line player unless...
Unless he's young and talented and the 2nd liner you get is a pending UFA.

I know Zednik is getting killed by Habs fans lately, but as a Bruin's fan, I respect his game. Montreal should be able to get something of value for him, but I think Montreal, Toronto, Boston and Atlanta are all going to be looking to add pieces to get them into the playoffs, not re-tool for next year.

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02-12-2006, 11:49 AM
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I can't see Ottawa moving him at all.....if they aquire a 2nd line centre it will be for their 1st and prospects (except Lee) who have yet to play in the league, with the exception of Bochenski (I predict he will be part of a package for a centre).

Vermette is a great 2 way player who is only going to get better as he earns more ice time, on top of that, he is dirt cheap.....you don't want to move those guys in the new nhl.

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02-12-2006, 12:22 PM
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Vermette + picks and prospects for Jokinen.

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02-12-2006, 12:23 PM
  #10
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I think a lot of Sens prospects are overrated because they play with talen

 
Old
02-12-2006, 12:28 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey_Nut99
I think a lot of Sens prospects are overrated because they play with talen
Huh? Prospects are people not in the NHL, so they're not playing with any Sens players. Vermette has been on the 4th line all year but is still producing.

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02-12-2006, 12:45 PM
  #12
Bill Ladd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuhr86
Your not going to put second teir defensive players on the ice against Havlat... you will get ran over if you do that. Havlat will have a field day picking the opposition appart.
Your making my point. The Cash line will draw the top checkers and Havlat is going to pick any second pairing apart. So why do you need more scoring? Wouldn't improving your defense be more important?

I guess we just have different philosophies. IMO, winning playoff hockey means winning low scoring, close games and it's little things like faceoffs and turnovers that win close games, which is why teams like Toronto, Philly and New Jersey have been so effective. But having an outrageous offense worked for Colorado, so maybe it'll work for Ottawa too.

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02-12-2006, 01:06 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wladd77
Your making my point. The Cash line will draw the top checkers and Havlat is going to pick any second pairing apart. So why do you need more scoring? Wouldn't improving your defense be more important?

I guess we just have different philosophies. IMO, winning playoff hockey means winning low scoring, close games and it's little things like faceoffs and turnovers that win close games, which is why teams like Toronto, Philly and New Jersey have been so effective. But having an outrageous offense worked for Colorado, so maybe it'll work for Ottawa too.
How do you or anyone else for that matter even know what playoff hocking is gonna be like this year? With all the new rules, it's anyones guess imo.

Fisher, Schaefer, Smolinski, Vermette, Eaves, Kelly, Neil, Alfie are all very effective checkers. If you look at our line up, our lower lines are overflowing already, we don't need a 3rd line checking center, we need a 2nd line center.

Close games will happen in the playoff, but adding a Halpern wont give us any better chance of winning than a Jokinen would. We have plenty of Halperns, and we have a glaring weakness at 2nd line center which we can fill.

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02-12-2006, 02:35 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wladd77
Your making my point. The Cash line will draw the top checkers and Havlat is going to pick any second pairing apart. So why do you need more scoring? Wouldn't improving your defense be more important?

I guess we just have different philosophies. IMO, winning playoff hockey means winning low scoring, close games and it's little things like faceoffs and turnovers that win close games, which is why teams like Toronto, Philly and New Jersey have been so effective. But having an outrageous offense worked for Colorado, so maybe it'll work for Ottawa too.

I dont get why you bring up faceoffs when Ottawa is its strongest in this area in about 6 or 7 seasons. Our top guys are over 50% and our team is over 50%, so I dont see that as any major hole in our game.

Our turnover game is also one of the strongest in the game, so both of your points amount to nothing.

Basically, the only player that is replaceable on our team is Smolinski, but how much can this team afford to give up to upgrade on him? Whether or a scorer or a checker, without taking away what Smoke provides? Its hit or miss, and there is no telling that there is anyone out there that can play his role on this team better in a checking-leadership-versatile role than him.

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02-12-2006, 02:59 PM
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Bill Ladd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenSk9tSen
How do you or anyone else for that matter even know what playoff hocking is gonna be like this year? With all the new rules, it's anyones guess imo.

Fisher, Schaefer, Smolinski, Vermette, Eaves, Kelly, Neil, Alfie are all very effective checkers. If you look at our line up, our lower lines are overflowing already, we don't need a 3rd line checking center, we need a 2nd line center.

Close games will happen in the playoff, but adding a Halpern wont give us any better chance of winning than a Jokinen would. We have plenty of Halperns, and we have a glaring weakness at 2nd line center which we can fill.
Hockey is hockey, whether it's this year, last year, 10 years ago, the Olympics, Junior or college, faceoffs matter, defense matters, even moreso in close games.

Those guys you mentioned are all very good defensive forwards, but Fisher & Smoke can't win draws and neither can Jokinen. IMO, you're already an explosive offensive team and your only weakness is in the face-off circle.

Getting a guy like Peca or Halpern will take nothing away from your offense, just make you harder to play against. What's the most sought after player on the market going to cost? Garrioch's reporting Havlat & a first? How does that help you?
He may be off, but remember, you've got to outbid everyone else.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather fix my only weakness and keep my stellar talent base intact than outbid everyone in a trade for the most expensive UFA available, just to add more scoring to one of the highest scoring teams in the league.

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02-12-2006, 03:20 PM
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Bill Ladd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I.M. Fletcher
I dont get why you bring up faceoffs when Ottawa is its strongest in this area in about 6 or 7 seasons. Our top guys are over 50% and our team is over 50%, so I dont see that as any major hole in our game.

Our turnover game is also one of the strongest in the game, so both of your points amount to nothing.

Basically, the only player that is replaceable on our team is Smolinski, but how much can this team afford to give up to upgrade on him? Whether or a scorer or a checker, without taking away what Smoke provides? Its hit or miss, and there is no telling that there is anyone out there that can play his role on this team better in a checking-leadership-versatile role than him.
I don't know where you get your numbers but according to NHL.com...

Mike Fisher has a 48.7% winning percentage. You want him to be your checking center. Is he the guy you want taking critical defensive zone draws in the last minute of a close game, in OT? Against guys like Rod Brind'Amour 61%, Chris Drury 57%, Bobby Holik 56%, Patrice Bergeron 57.4%? These guys have each won over 400 draws this year. The one guy you have that's participated in a lot of draws and has a good winning percentage is Spezza 53.8%, but your not going to use him in your last minute defense are you?

BTW, I never said Ottawa was poor defensively or a poor turnover team, my point is that adding an elite checking center and keeping Fisher on the second line makes you better defensively and therefore tougher to play against in the playoffs.


Last edited by Bill Ladd: 02-13-2006 at 08:11 PM.
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02-12-2006, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wladd77
I don't know where you get your numbers but according to NHL.com...

Mike Fisher has a 48.7% winning percentage. You want him to be your checking center. Is he the guy you want taking critical defensive zone draws in the last minute of a close game, in OT? Against guys like Rod Brind'Amour 61%, Chris Drury 57%, Bobby Holik 56%, Patrice Bergeron 57.4%? These guys have each won over 400 draws this year. The one guy you have that's participated in a lot of draws and has a good winning percentage is Spezza 53.8%, but your not going to use him in your last minute defense are you?

BTW, I never said Ottawa was poor defensively or a poor turnover team, my point is that adding an elite center and keeping Fisher on the second line makes you better defensively and therefore tougher to play against in the playoffs.
When the team is healthy, Kelly (45.9%) and Vermette (57.2%) are 2 centers on the 4th line.
FO% average is probably something like 49.5% (based on full team #'s, Phx and TB are middle of the pack). Fisher is only 0.8 lower than that and would be our only center below average if Vermette was moved to center FT.

We see Fisher as an awesome 3rd line center. You seem to be looking at this years' stats and are calling him a 2nd line center. This seems to be the point of contention here.

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02-13-2006, 12:28 AM
  #18
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Just to note:
Halpern is the Team captain is from DC and unlikely to be involved in any trade. He will likely be a Capital next year. Before you go trying to peddle him, you should consider whi is "easy to acquire."

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02-13-2006, 01:28 AM
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Antoine Vermette and Chris Kelly for Mike Peca?

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02-13-2006, 01:55 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerric
Antoine Vermette and Chris Kelly for Mike Peca?

I dont think we could do that if we wanted to. Doesent Peca have another year left on his contract?

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02-13-2006, 01:57 AM
  #21
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Halpern to Ottawa makes a lot of sense for all parties. Seems like a great fit in OTT. It'd give Halpern a chance at a long run in the playoffs (something he's never had) and for the Caps it'd fetch a decent return that would help their re-build without costing them anything too important.

I like Halpern...he's a heart and soul player (and probably won't be traded to be honest) but with Sutherby, Ovechkin, and Chris Clark already providing tons of heart Halpern is not as important in DC as he would be otherwise.

Maybe Witt and Halpern go as part of a larger deal.

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02-13-2006, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bileur
I dont think we could do that if we wanted to. Doesent Peca have another year left on his contract?
Nope, he's in his final year and would be a rental for anyone that traded for him. Well, of course that's if the Oil are willing to trade him, which if they can hold playoff position, they very well may not be willing to do so.

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02-13-2006, 09:40 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnGalt
Maybe Witt and Halpern go as part of a larger deal.
As long as the Sens didn't overpay, those two would be solid pickups for the Cup run.

Quote:
Antoine Vermette and Chris Kelly for Mike Peca?
Ugh, that's awful.

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02-13-2006, 10:10 AM
  #24
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What, besides a center, would Ottawa want in a trade? Are they still looking for a good, second line LW? I'd love to see a deal involving Erat and Vermette. I think Erat could thrive on a team like Ottawa.

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02-13-2006, 10:13 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
What, besides a center, would Ottawa want in a trade? Are they still looking for a good, second line LW? I'd love to see a deal involving Erat and Vermette. I think Erat could thrive on a team like Ottawa.
If the Sens were to acquire a 2nd line winger, it would have to be a veteran, which is why I would pass on that deal. Erat's a good player, but acquiring him doesn't add much to the team. Vermette, even when he's not scoring, is still one of the top penalty killers on the team and is effective because of his two-way game. Not sure the same can be said for Erat.

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