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Was the Brassard trade an under the radar mistake?

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Old
04-16-2017, 10:17 AM
  #76
NyQuil
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Originally Posted by thomashefe View Post
Yea his open net one timer was huge. He had a lot more to do with the goal that was scored against them.
The one where Anderson threw the puck to nowhere?

Ok bud.

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Old
04-16-2017, 10:52 AM
  #77
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The whole "would brass produce with rangers linemates Mika has" etc makes no sense. Brassard didn't play with scrubs. His most common linemate was Mark stone who is probably better or equal to any wing on the Rangers. 25% of his ice time was with mike Hoffman

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Old
04-16-2017, 11:03 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
It was a terrible trade from day one for Ottawa. Player for Player they are similar quality. The fact that NYR got years of prime time hockey and a 2nd rounder just make it a really bad trade for Ottawa.

I love the fact that they claimed that bringing in a left hand shot would really help Ryan and the powerplay. So how did that work out for Ottawa?

Said it from day one.
They have not resigned Zibby yet and some question if they will reach a deal even some think if he does hit the market july 1st Ottawa would push very hard to bring him back.

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04-16-2017, 11:11 AM
  #79
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At first I was really happy,,, but after 1 year it doesn't look so hot
Dorion got taken to the woodshed on this one.

Up to this point in their careers I prefer Brassard but more because of consistency, and tenacity vs ability. Zib is faster, 6 years younger, and bigger.

So 1 for 1 would be more acceptable than the Sens throwing in a 2nd. That 2nd could have had something to do with the Rangers paying Brassard's bonus ahead of the trade.

Trade Value across the NHL ... Zibanajad > Brassard IMO

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04-16-2017, 11:12 AM
  #80
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Ottawa is cheap, they wanted a locked contract and didn't want to pay what Zibanejad could potentially earn when he broke out.

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04-16-2017, 01:34 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
The whole "would brass produce with rangers linemates Mika has" etc makes no sense. Brassard didn't play with scrubs. His most common linemate was Mark stone who is probably better or equal to any wing on the Rangers. 25% of his ice time was with mike Hoffman
the production of those 2 players is as if not more related to systems than linemates. Ottawa did not play a high octane style of hockey.

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04-16-2017, 02:04 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Ottawa is cheap, they wanted a locked contract and didn't want to pay what Zibanejad could potentially earn when he broke out.
There was a lot of appeal in what Brassard could add to Ottawa. First of all, Rangers fans praised they guy. They felt he was one of their better players, and that was on a contending Rangers team. Meanwhile, Ottawa fans weren't all in on Zibanejad. He had consistency issues, and didn't seem to make his linemates better. Dorion knew he was giving up the younger player, but he felt this team had a chance to do some damage in the upcoming years, which is the same reason Ottawa added the likes of Phaneuf and Burrows.

Brassard was said to be:
-->A better Power Play player- he led NYR in PP goals and points the year before, while Zib wasn't that good on Ottawa's PP, and Ottawa's PP as a whole, struggled.
-->A better offensive player- he finished 2nd in each of his last 2 years on NYR in points, and led them goals his last year there. Zib was more of a passenger with Ottawa. He had his chance to show his abilities when Turris got hurt last year and didn't really elevate his game [Pageau was actually the more impressive center in this time]. Brassard had 21 more points than Zib in their last 2 seasons prior to this one.
--> A left-handed shooting center- This was important because it gave Ottawa balance with Turris and Pageau shooting right, and people felt this might help Bobby Ryan, who never quite clicked with Zib.
--> A proven playoff performer- He had played in close to 60 playoff games with the Rangers, coming up big for them on many occasions.

This season wasn't a very good one for Brassard. The PP struggled early and he was moved to 2nd unit. Ryan and him didn't click early on. His shooting % was fairly unlucky- he set a career high in shots, but only scored on 7% of them [if he shot at his career rate of 11%, he would've scored 7 more goals]. He was often more of a passenger than I thought he'd be on his line, although maybe that was my own fault as his even strength production has never been that great [he averaged 35 even strength points in his 3 full seasons with New York. This year with Ottawa, even with the low shooting %, he scored 32 even strength points].

It's too early for me to call this move a failure. Let's see how Zibanejad progresses, let's see how they both look in the playoffs. I think it's likely Brassard will have a more productive season next year. It's also not as if Brassard is at the end of his career, he still may have quite a bit of good hockey in him. My disappointment is in thinking that Brassard was at Turris' level, giving Ottawa two low end 1C's, but instead, he has looked more like a 2C. He needs PP time to produce, and he hasn't earned that with Ottawa, so hopefully next year he does.

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04-16-2017, 02:36 PM
  #83
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04-16-2017, 03:13 PM
  #84
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Yes it was a bad trade just like ottawa gave away Silfverberg and lehner.
getting a first round pick for a goalie is robbery

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04-16-2017, 03:31 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by YesCubed View Post
getting a first round pick for a goalie is robbery
Don't forget we dumped Legwand in that deal as well, and even though the pick was low White is looking like a solid middle sixer at minimum

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04-16-2017, 05:01 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by jason2020 View Post
They have not resigned Zibby yet and some question if they will reach a deal even some think if he does hit the market july 1st Ottawa would push very hard to bring him back.
Zibby is not a UFA.

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04-16-2017, 08:41 PM
  #87
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Zibby is the better player, but to rationalize it from a Sens perspective, it looks like Dorion preferred the guy with 3 years at a cheap price, with a history of raising his game in the playoffs, and doesn't make soft plays allowing a Radulov to score pivotal goals in overtime. Outside of that play, and one-timing shots wide or into Price's chest on the Pp, Zibby has been invisible and soft.

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04-17-2017, 12:30 AM
  #88
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I would take brassard back in a hear beat no questions asked. He brought it every year in the playoffs and carried the team. Not to mention he had fantastic chemistry with a few guys on here including zucc.

Zibanejad has been nothing short of a colossal disappointment before and after his injury.

and he is certainly not better than brassard, don't let homers tell you otherwise. Age is just a number not a magic skill gap.


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Old
04-17-2017, 01:14 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by The Lunatic Fridge View Post
I would take brassard back in a hear beat no questions asked. He brought it every year in the playoffs and carried the team. Not to mention he had fantastic chemistry with a few guys on here including zucc.

Zibanejad has been nothing short of a colossal disappointment before and after his injury.

and he is certainly not better than brassard, don't let homers tell you otherwise. Age is just a number not a magic skill gap.
That's sad to hear. I always liked Z-bad but I agree with some of the people here, he is mostly a passenger. He needs wingers that can push the play and create opportunities, which is strange because typically it should be the other way around. If the Sens go on a bit of a run here and Brassard is a factor in doing that then I wouldn't really call it a mistake, but if he doesn't I will wonder who else the Sens could have gotten for Zibby...

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04-17-2017, 11:06 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Ottawa is cheap, they wanted a locked contract and didn't want to pay what Zibanejad could potentially earn when if he broke out.
Why do people keep assuming he'll break out? I don't think he ever will. All the tools, no toolbox. Decent player, but he'll always leave you wanting more. The ultimate tease.

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04-17-2017, 11:18 AM
  #91
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I think Brassard is the more proven proven commodity and with Ottawa bringing in Phaneuf, having Karlsson/Stone/Turris locked up at a combined 13.5M Cap hit (holy ****), and having their #1 in Anderson under contract for two more seasons, like felt like they needed to get a more proven guy to slot behind Turris.

I'm not necessarily saying Brassard is the more proven commodity, I just think that is the perception when you hold him up against Zibanejad.

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04-17-2017, 11:54 AM
  #92
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Brassard has been a disappointment, but I still would do the trade. People's perception of the trade seems to be ruled by the idea that Zibanejad will reach his potential. The likelihood of Zibanejad reaching his potential continues to dwindle as the days go by. It is much more realistic to look at Zibanejad as he is now, and assume that is the player he will always be.

At worst, what both Brassard and Zibanejad to the table on the ice is close to equal. Zibanejad has tremendous upside but has also played close to 350 NHL games without shedding his reputation as an inconsistent worker who leaves you wanting more. This is all fine and good, but then you have to take into consideration that Zibanejad is approaching his arbitration eligible free agent year.

This leads me to the other factor that has clouded people's perception of the trade, which is the difference in age between the two players. There's this false idea that because Zibanejad is younger, the Senators traded a player's entire prime for 3 years of Brassard. I don't think this is true because market value for a young center approaching arbitration/UFA status of Zibanejad's pedigree on a long term deal is at least 5M per season. I don't think the Senators were going to feel comfortable paying a player who has continually showed up to camp out of shape, had his commitment questioned, and not yet lived up to his potential that much money on a long term deal.

The likely result of Zibanejad still being in Ottawa would be the Senators and Zibanejad being forced into a two year deal either through arbitration, or through reaching an agreement prior to the arbitration hearing. This would mean the Senators would get the exact same amount of years out of Zibanejad as they are set to get out of Brassard, 3. The difference being Brassard is cost controlled at a real money AAV of 3.33M and there is no guarantee Zibanejad would be cheaper after arbitration. It's clear that the drawbacks of acquiring the older player were likely nullified by the fact that Zibanejad would be arbitration eligible with only two years of team control left.

Most of the Senators trades have been an attempt to build a team that meet the demands of their new head coach Guy Boucher. What we've been seeing between Dorion and Boucher is very much a partnership. The Wingels trade? Dorion openly admitted he consulted with Boucher and Boucher felt Wingels would fit in with the team. To paraphrase Boucher when commenting on the acquisitions of Stalberg and Burrows, Boucher said something to the effect that it's fantastic when a coach gets their wishlist of players fulfilled by the GM. Brassard and Boucher have a player/coach relationship dating back to the QMJHL. The fact that Zibanejad was moved shortly after Boucher was hired, and that we know Boucher has had so much influence over the type of players Dorion has opted to trade for tells me that Zibanejad was traded potentially because it was made clear that he wasn't going to be a fit with coach Guy Boucher. So from that perspective, this trade is a positive.

Not to mention with Brassard the Sens got a player who has experience going deep in the playoffs multiple times and has garnered a reputation as a player who finds an extra gear in the post season. The Senators got a player who presumably knows what it takes to win. Given how little playoff experience the Senators have had over the last few years, bringing in that kind of player externally is a huge plus.

Stats wise, Zib was 5th in team scoring last season, Brassard is 5th in team scoring this season. Keep in mind last year Zibanejad had an opportunity to step up and prove he could be the man down the middle when Turris got hurt but he failed to find a new level and was overtaken by JG Pageau as the team's number one center for a big chunk of the season. Zibanejad had his opportunities to make it as a Senator, he failed to take advantage of them. The Senators were likely looking at a situation where through arbitration they'd get three more years out of Zibanejad so they opted to trade him for a three years of a veteran center at what should be a lower real money salary (budget team) over those three years. This is a center who their coach presumably liked better. Who brings playoff experience. It was a good trade at the time, and even with Brassard's disappointing regular season production wise where Senators brass still called him their best forward analytically, the trade is still a good one now.

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04-17-2017, 12:09 PM
  #93
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Why do people keep assuming he'll break out? I don't think he ever will. All the tools, no toolbox. Decent player, but he'll always leave you wanting more. The ultimate tease.
This is a big problem with people evaluating this trade. There are two false assumptions, one that the Senators gave up more years of a younger player in Zibanejad for 3 years of an older player in Brassard, and also that Zibanejad will reach his potential and get better if just given more time.

Zib is already 24 (as of tomorrow...happy birthday Zbad), and has played nearly 350 NHL games. He was drafted in 2011. That's 6 years ago. Although it is entirely possible for a player to peak a bit later, ironically Brassard peaked production wise when he was a bit older than Zibanejad is now, nothing in Zibanejad's history makes that seem like a safe bet. Zibanejad has a negative reputation for not taking hockey serious enough, for being inconsistent on the ice, and for failing to step up when the opportunity is there.

Let's put it this way...if these following conditions prove to be true, does it change people's perception of the trade?
-Sens would have only gotten 3 years out of Zibanejad since both sides would have gone to arbitration as the Senators wouldn't have been comfortable giving Zibanejad a market value (5 years/25M?) extension.
-After arbitration, Zibanejad would have cost a similar price or more than Brassard who has a real money AAV of 3.33M.
-What Zibanejad is today is all he will become. He isn't going to find that next level.
-Brassard brings more positives off the ice. Playoff experience. Leadership.
-Guy Boucher might feel Brassard is a better fit for his coaching style. Also combine that with the fact that the Senators previously had no left handed top 6 centers and the only lefty who could take faceoffs in their top 9 was Zack Smith who has been regulated to wing for the most part).

Quote:
Originally Posted by YesCubed View Post
getting a first round pick for a goalie is robbery
I think it was fair value given the potential Lehner has and the fact that we moved him in the division. But anybody trying to craft a narrative that Ottawa "gave" Lehner away is insane. We got the 21st pick in a very deep draft where 1st rounders like Colin White, Travis Konecny, Ilya Samsonov, and Brock Boeser would end up still being on the board. I think it was a solid move for both sides given Lehner's potential, Anderson not being ready to step aside, and the Sabres being at a more appropriate point in their rebuild to develop Lehner than the Senators were. Not to mention, the Sabres gave the Senators an additional 3.5M by proxy via taking Legwand's contract which Ottawa didn't want.


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Old
04-17-2017, 01:52 PM
  #94
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That's sad to hear. I always liked Z-bad but I agree with some of the people here, he is mostly a passenger. He needs wingers that can push the play and create opportunities, which is strange because typically it should be the other way around. If the Sens go on a bit of a run here and Brassard is a factor in doing that then I wouldn't really call it a mistake, but if he doesn't I will wonder who else the Sens could have gotten for Zibby...
Zibanejad is a weird one. He's a big guy who can skate fast, tries really hard, and has a pretty good skillset. The problem is between his two ears. He simply does not have any hockey sense. He's not really a passenger, because he can drive the play. He just drives it into a wall.

The most success he had with Ottawa was playing on a line with Hoffman and Ryan. Ryan is the playmaker, Hoff is the shooter. Zibanejad just worked really hard and tried not to **** things up too much. Personally, I'd experiment with him playing on the wing. I don't know why this hasn't been tried before.

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04-17-2017, 01:58 PM
  #95
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According to what i have from from fans of both teams, both have been disappointed in their players.

Now the Rangers probably will win the trade becasue Zibby is younger and will probably be a better offensive player.

But there is also a possibility that both sides will remain disappointed for the foreseeable future.

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04-17-2017, 04:20 PM
  #96
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The one where Anderson threw the puck to nowhere?

Ok bud.
Yes, the one where he controlle-disconnected when anderson got into trouble - and his one captain yelled at him all the way to the bench. Didn't watch, bud?

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04-17-2017, 04:26 PM
  #97
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Zibanejad lacks intensity. I have never seen him as a player who steps up when a team needs him the most and outside of the WJC overtime goal, he just doesn't shine in big moments. He handed Montreal a goal the other day.

That said, I don't think Brassard has been as good as advertised this year.

From a pure value standpoint, I think Zibanejad has as much value as Brassard. I think Dorion overpaid, but at the same time it isn't easy to trade for #2C's.

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04-17-2017, 04:30 PM
  #98
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Under the radar bad for the Rangers, yes.

Ottawa accomplished what they wanted to in this trade.

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04-17-2017, 04:32 PM
  #99
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He should be good for 50 next season.
I wouldn't count on it. Better off setting the expectations low.

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04-17-2017, 06:52 PM
  #100
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No. Brassard is taking it to another level in the playoffs. He's showing why the Sens traded for him

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