HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

McDavid in his prime

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-16-2017, 06:52 PM
  #26
CpatainCanuck
Registered User
 
CpatainCanuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,229
vCash: 500
McDavid's prime may have already begun. Sadly I think that due to McDavid's speed he is more likely to suffer a career threatening injury than the average star player, with players hooking, slashing and shoving as he blows past them. If he is the victim of any lower body injury that negates his speed advantage he will no better than any of the rest of the league's star forwards.

CpatainCanuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 06:57 PM
  #27
Human Bean
Hold my sandwich
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Country: United States
Posts: 1,947
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by McWeber View Post
So he is at his prime but 2 guys born within a year of him are not?
That is correct.

Human Bean is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:01 PM
  #28
McFlyingV
#Free :]
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,721
vCash: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
That is correct.
I'll wait for your reasoning on this, but I know better than to expect a logical, coherent response.

McFlyingV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:03 PM
  #29
leafs94
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFlyingV View Post
Not going to bother reading an article by Travis Jost for starters as I've already pointed out the flaw in these types of "studies".

As for your medical background as an RN, that really has no qualification relating to sports performance or peak physiological maturity (I mean that in a non-offensive way). If you had the knowledge you believe you do on the subject you would know that peak Test levels doesn't = peak performance and physiological maturity. There is no loss in muscle mass at that age, so I'm confused why you think lower Test levels = lower performance. Adolescence is very important due to motor learning and peak HGH and Test levels in terms of development, but it is far from the end of development as most physiological systems don't finish maturing until mid 20's and for any normal human test levels are more than high enough to continue adding strength, power, muscle mass and so on after the age of 21.

As for McDavid being a man-child, I think you're mistaken. He's no more developed physically than other athletes, and actually inferior to a lot out there. His fitness scores are nothing special. His physical strength and size is nothing special (in relation to elite athletes). What is special is his skating technique, his footwork, his hand work and coordination, his genetics, and his ability to think and process the game of hockey at incredible speed. You're kidding yourself if you look at McDavid and think, man this kid is some physically mature beast. He's a hockey phenom, but he's not where he is because he's reached his peak physical maturity.
I think you should research test more, and what it does.

Which physiologic systems are these specifically? As it pertains to muscle mass, strength and size test is the be all and end all for humans.

here is another article, http://www.cbc.ca/news/when-nhl-play...rics-1.2646054

"What Brander and his team found for hockey corresponds to research on how physiology and intelligence relate to developing basic sports skills. "Skills related to reaction time and to speed and explosive power of muscle movement peak in the early to mid-20s," but "endurance and skill at complex physical tasks peak later — in the late 20s or early 30s."

So physiological maturation occurs earlier, its the fine motor skills that need tuning (well into their 30's).

Here is another article http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/3/1...s-age-analysis

Are these authors credible enough for you?

Peak physiologic functioning occurs 25, fine motor skills develop after (why defensemen take longer to develop). McDavid wont get much faster or stronger into his 20's, he will however get better. In other words its more of a neuromuscular-cognitive maturation than physiologic, which was being discussed in this thread.

leafs94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:05 PM
  #30
leafs94
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,697
vCash: 500
Not to mention all these studies are performed on the masses and not freaks of nature like McJesus

leafs94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:07 PM
  #31
Human Bean
Hold my sandwich
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Albuquerque
Country: United States
Posts: 1,947
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFlyingV View Post
I'll wait for your reasoning on this, but I know better than to expect a logical, coherent response.
It's my opinion, just like every other post in this thread is base on that poster's opinion.

Human Bean is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:26 PM
  #32
Polynomial Function
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
It's my opinion, just like every other post in this thread is base on that poster's opinion.
Your opinion has no basis in reality. McDavid always has been better than Eichel and Matthews, and there is no evidence to suggest that a 20 year old generational talent will not improve in subsequent seasons.

Polynomial Function is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:32 PM
  #33
Mcnotloilersfan
I'm here, I'm bored
 
Mcnotloilersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Niagara
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,284
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas1235 View Post
if you want points, 21 years old,

if you want complete player, then 25 years old.

Remember that Dany Heatley was a 90-100 point player early on too.
Heatley is a poor example. His prime was reduced to him being slow and completely lacking in character.

Mcnotloilersfan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:33 PM
  #34
McFlyingV
#Free :]
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,721
vCash: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by leafs94 View Post
I think you should research test more, and what it does.

Which physiologic systems are these specifically? As it pertains to muscle mass, strength and size test is the be all and end all for humans.

here is another article, http://www.cbc.ca/news/when-nhl-play...rics-1.2646054

"What Brander and his team found for hockey corresponds to research on how physiology and intelligence relate to developing basic sports skills. "Skills related to reaction time and to speed and explosive power of muscle movement peak in the early to mid-20s," but "endurance and skill at complex physical tasks peak later — in the late 20s or early 30s."

So physiological maturation occurs earlier, its the fine motor skills that need tuning (well into their 30's).

Here is another article http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/3/1...s-age-analysis

Are these authors credible enough for you?

Peak physiologic functioning occurs 25, fine motor skills develop after (why defensemen take longer to develop). McDavid wont get much faster or stronger into his 20's, he will however get better.
My point wasn't that testosterone wasn't the most important factor in strength, power and muscle mass (it is an all cases, but not the only factor in terms of strength and power), its that testosterone levels are high enough throughout the 20's of a male to further improve all those aspects. No they won't get the same benefit they get through puberty, but they also won't go backwards. They still have the capability to continue to improve those physical components. It should also be pretty obvious that speed, power, etc. in athletic performance are influenced by far more than just the musculoskeletal system. The central and peripheral nervous system for one has a huge impact on this, and is still developing and refining in most individuals into the 25+ age range. I'd have to look up cardiovascular maturity, but its another factor to consider both in terms of physical performance and in terms of psychological factors that impact sport performance.

I'll give the articles you linked a read when I get a chance (working on other stuff right now so I don't have the time to give them a comprehensive read), but I'm in somewhat agreement on your last point. McDavid does have room to grow stronger and he will into his mid 20's. Will he get faster? I have no idea, he's already pushing it to the limits in that regard so probably not, but he doesn't look close to reaching his peak strength levels. We are in agreement though that he will improve into his mid 20's.

My argument from the start was that not all physiological systems that contribute to athletic performance are done maturing by ages 22-25. Some are, but most of those that are also don't deteriorate or decline until into an individual's 30's. So I guess in that sense we're not far off in agreement, but I think starting the age range as low as 20 as some have in this thread is a little dishonest with what is known about the human body. I could agree more with an age range around 23-27 if you want to keep it more open, but most athletes have not hit their peak physiologically at McDavid's age.

Edit: Neuromuscular cognitive maturation (as you refer to it) is physiological. How else do you think this type of thing improves? Stronger neural pathways, pruning of weaker/unneeded connections, improved neural firing and motor unit recruitment and control.


Last edited by McFlyingV: 04-16-2017 at 07:42 PM. Reason: Responding to your edit.
McFlyingV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:34 PM
  #35
McFlyingV
#Free :]
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,721
vCash: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Bean View Post
It's my opinion, just like every other post in this thread is base on that poster's opinion.
I never argued against it being your opinion. I simply posted that the logic behind your opinion is flimsy at best.

McFlyingV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:34 PM
  #36
Mc5RingsAndABeer
5-14-6-1
 
Mc5RingsAndABeer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 18,974
vCash: 97
I'd say he's already in his prime. Athletically he will probably peak in 1-2 years before gradual decline. His knowledge of the game and other abilities should keep his overall game improving until he's about 30 IMO. After that he will start to decline but should still be a phenomenal player.

Mc5RingsAndABeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:45 PM
  #37
Ether Prodigy
Fearless Leader
 
Ether Prodigy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,009
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polynomial Function View Post
Your opinion has no basis in reality. McDavid always has been better than Eichel and Matthews, and there is no evidence to suggest that a 20 year old generational talent will not improve in subsequent seasons.
He's Ovechkin 2.0 who passes. He'll be done by 27.

Ether Prodigy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 07:46 PM
  #38
McFlyingV
#Free :]
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,721
vCash: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ether Prodigy View Post
He's Ovechkin 2.0 who passes. He'll be done by 27.
I mean aside from the fact that he's not a physical player like Ovechkin, possesses better hockey IQ, and is built absolutely nothing like Ovi.

McFlyingV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 08:20 PM
  #39
jasonfilatov
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,546
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by That1Kid View Post
You could make the argument that his prime will start/end sooner than most players due to his speed being such a huge part of his game and what separates him from others. He's the best in the NHL right now, it's tough to argue otherwise.
At the same time, some players can keep the speed going. Michael Grabner being an example at 29:

jasonfilatov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 08:21 PM
  #40
NeverForget06
Hunter Fanclub
 
NeverForget06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,232
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ether Prodigy View Post
He's Ovechkin 2.0 who passes. He'll be done by 27.
In what ways exactly???

NeverForget06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 08:37 PM
  #41
Natepollock92
Registered User
 
Natepollock92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,490
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apotheosis View Post
His prime? 22-25 like most hockey players (that is forwards at least). 100 points a season is a benchmark, but wouldn't be surprised to see uptick years and downtick years. A 80-90 point year (due to unsustainable numbers a year or two) but also a 110-120 point season here or there.
Id say this is the best assessment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McFlyingV View Post
Peak physiological functioning comes around 25-27 so not really.
Peak production generally comes from 22-25. Physiological function while important is different than actual point production by age.

Natepollock92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 08:51 PM
  #42
varank
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 174
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverForget06 View Post
In what ways exactly???
I think he's misconstruing young Ovechkin's skating ability as Ovechkin's greatest strength (McDavid is a great skater), however that's about it lol. Ovechkin was a freight train on skates with crazy offensive awareness and a venomous shot.

varank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 09:02 PM
  #43
ESH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFlyingV View Post
Source? Any research i've read on the subject cites 20-30 as peak physical performance and 26 as the commonly averaged age of physiological maturity. Of course these numbers can vary dramatically individually as some people are simply early physiological maturers while others are late maturers.

If you do reply to this, please don't reference the studies done of statistical analysis on NHL players as those numbers are incredibly flawed for numerous reasons including era adjustments, injuries, and quality of player. They don't actually measure the peak physiological performance of athletes.
How is anyone supposed to abide by these guidelines? The best way to judge when players perform at there best in the NHL is to judge based on how they actually performed. I don't know how you expect people to test what the peak age of performance in the NHL is without using statistics from the NHL. There's no real way to judge physiological performance that I'm aware of. How is anyone supposed to measure how your body functions systematically?

ESH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 09:06 PM
  #44
chethejet
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,658
vCash: 500
Sid changed his game from the speed beat your guy to a puck possession work the boards and play a 200 foot game. McDavid has many of Gretzsky's trademarks. He is not Crosby and the question is will he evolve to be a player that can beat you in a number of ways. People look at talent without seeing what wins and is sustainable. Pens win due to Crosby being the best player anywhere on the ice. That is the challenge for McDavid, or Mathews or Eichel.

chethejet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 10:20 PM
  #45
authentic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 6,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFlyingV View Post
Not going to bother reading an article by Travis Jost for starters as I've already pointed out the flaw in these types of "studies".

As for your medical background as an RN, that really has no qualification relating to sports performance or peak physiological maturity (I mean that in a non-offensive way). If you had the knowledge you believe you do on the subject you would know that peak Test levels doesn't = peak performance and physiological maturity. There is no loss in muscle mass at that age, so I'm confused why you think lower Test levels = lower performance. Adolescence is very important due to motor learning and peak HGH and Test levels in terms of development, but it is far from the end of development as most physiological systems don't finish maturing until mid 20's and for any normal human test levels are more than high enough to continue adding strength, power, muscle mass and so on after the age of 21.

As for McDavid being a man-child, I think you're mistaken. He's no more developed physically than other athletes, and actually inferior to a lot out there. His fitness scores are nothing special. His physical strength and size is nothing special (in relation to elite athletes). What is special is his skating technique, his footwork, his hand work and coordination, his genetics, and his ability to think and process the game of hockey at incredible speed. You're kidding yourself if you look at McDavid and think, man this kid is some physically mature beast. He's a hockey phenom, but he's not where he is because he's reached his peak physical maturity.
Exactly. People here saying players peaks are 21 and 22 are very mistaken, even just offensively speaking. There have been exactly zero players who had their peak offensive peformance at those ages, unless you want to argue one of Gretzky's earlier seasons or not adjust for scoring levels in Crosby's case. Far more often than not players are better offensively, not even considering their overall game, at 24-30 than they are 23 and under. I think McDavid's best seasons will be in that 24-30 range somewhere, but like Crosby I don't think his improvement will be huge after his early 20s because he's already so amazing to begin with.

If one wanted to take a quick look at the top scorers of each season going back to the 80s, including the Art Ross winners, they would see that a vast majority of them are 25 or older. Even this season only 7 of the top 30 scorers are under the age of 25, and 5 under 23. A majority of the top 10-20-30 scorers are 25 and over and I've done research on this myself and this trend continues going back to the 80s. Infact, I saw a study on here that showed a majority of elite players in the NHL peak offensively later than your average 2nd-4th line players.


Last edited by authentic: 04-16-2017 at 10:34 PM.
authentic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 10:37 PM
  #46
MonarchFlames
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 133
vCash: 500
He's at his prime now imo these will be the best seasons we see from him. Usually players of his calibre are in their primes in their early 20s. Just from looking at Crosby who McDavid is similar to (being touted as a generational talent and such) had some of his best seasons from 19-23 ish.

MonarchFlames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 10:40 PM
  #47
Monsieur Gustave H
American Hero
 
Monsieur Gustave H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,064
vCash: 500
McDavid is in his prime, he just won a scoring title. How many people won a scoring title in a non-prime season? Gretzky? Maybe Lemieux? 2016-17 will probably go down as one of his top-5 seasons.

Monsieur Gustave H is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2017, 10:42 PM
  #48
authentic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 6,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchFlames View Post
He's at his prime now imo these will be the best seasons we see from him. Usually players of his calibre are in their primes in their early 20s. Just from looking at Crosby who McDavid is similar to (being touted as a generational talent and such) had some of his best seasons from 19-23 ish.
If he was healthier his best seasons would have been from 23 and on though. His best full season relative to the rest of the league was in 2013-14 at age 26. His crazy half season and partial seasons after were 23-25.

authentic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2017, 12:05 AM
  #49
Trinstin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 328
vCash: 500
I'd definitely argue this is his prime. I would argue for most elite players that enter the league at 18, as soon as they enter they're in their prime and start to decline around 21 to 23 yrs old.

Trinstin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2017, 12:08 AM
  #50
authentic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 6,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ether Prodigy View Post
He's Ovechkin 2.0 who passes. He'll be done by 27.
Ovechkin led the NHL in goals at 30 though.

authentic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:41 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.