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National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Is J Toews worth his contract?

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Old
04-18-2017, 02:46 PM
  #101
Murzu
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Lol.

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Old
04-18-2017, 03:04 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by axecrew View Post
This is an excellent post and spot on...so much that Im not even going to read the rest of them. One thing to add is that like some one else said...basically the contract is their version of a lifetime achievement award...no way he's going to "earn"that contract moving forward...Kane on the other hand, as much as it pains me to say it, seems to be getting better, so maybe he will "earn" it.
The Hawks have done an excellent job of moving younger players for assets. But, there comes a time when you really do need to move one of your core pieces rather than continue to pay them above what they can contribute to your team.

The end result of the back diving deals that guys like Hossa, Luongo, Weber, Suter, Parise, etc. got has ye to be felt. Hossa begins his drop down to $1 million in salary next season. Lounge after 17-18 season will see his salary halved each of the next 2 year afterwards, and the others will drop in the years to come.

Do I think Toews over the next 7 years is going to be worth his contract? No. But, Burns moves up to an $8 million cap hit next season when he is 32 and it goes until he is 40.

Ideally, you are better off adopting an NFL philosophy where guys in their 20's (after their rookie contracts) get paid the big dollars at about age 26/27. The top guys generally stay with their clubs unless their club is way too tight against the salary cap or another team that is desperate to fill a hole steps up with a great off. Once that player is on the wrong side of 30, the teams steps back and says, we got the best years of your career and now we aren't going to pay you in your declining years. That player generally moves onto another team where only the first 2 years or so are guaranteed.

NHL doesn't work that way, as the cap hit is the average for the term of the contact, it doesn't rise or fall year to year and can't be re-worked.

Just a matter of whether or not teams begin to dig in and pay the player their money, but cut back on the term, which is where the team gets hurt.

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Old
04-18-2017, 03:04 PM
  #103
tony d
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Meh, he's overpaid, great player but he's not worth 10.5 million a year. No player in the league is.

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Old
04-18-2017, 03:09 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielpalfredsson View Post
Toews and Kane's contracts are anomalies. Both were signed at the worst possible time which was after 2012 lockout that limited contracts to 8 years in length but before the Canadian dollar plummeted which has slowed down the growth of the cap and re-written what teams are willing to offer star players to some extent.
This is an excellent point. I certainly forgot the ever increasing contract sizes before the loonie flatlined.

In this context, it was not a lifetime achievement contract. It was made on the assumption of a continuously increasing cap.

Which is madness, but that's another discussion.

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Old
04-18-2017, 03:12 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by AquaticBirdman View Post
The Supreme Leadership Hockey League?
Intangibles Hockey League

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Old
04-18-2017, 03:23 PM
  #106
Jared Dunn
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Originally Posted by Balance View Post
He was a passenger for 3 stanley cups and got 10m for it

What a life, imagine he was drafted by the Coyotes or something. Dude would be irrelevant.
Not being the best player on a cup winning team doesn't automatically make you a passenger... what a joke of a post

No Toews is not worth his contract, but he's still one of the best forwards in the game overall and I'd say is worth Stamkos money

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Old
04-18-2017, 03:44 PM
  #107
CHGoalie27
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For a million and a half less a year for K&T, the Hawks could've kept some of their other money players.

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Old
04-18-2017, 03:50 PM
  #108
Midnight Judges
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Gretzky never won a cup single-handedly. Someday people are going to get past this nonsensical trope and realize Toews is merely a very good player on an excellent team.

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Old
04-18-2017, 04:05 PM
  #109
dirk41
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Originally Posted by Farm View Post
Jonathan Toews has been paid around 125 million during his career. Sure, I'll take 3 cups for 125 million please.
Toews made $35 million during the three-cup run era. The cups were already bought for that $35 million. The extra $90 million is after-the-fact.

Jesus.

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Old
04-18-2017, 04:07 PM
  #110
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He isn't worth anywhere near that contract, but his results have given his fans and organization a reason to justify it. That doesn't make it any less of a hindrance in the future, and it doesn't mean he is actually worth it.

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Old
04-18-2017, 04:35 PM
  #111
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hell no. for that cash u better be offensive and defensive. can't be great defender and subpar offense

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Old
04-18-2017, 04:41 PM
  #112
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If his team is winning? Yes

If his team isn't winning? No

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04-18-2017, 04:51 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
3 cups and countless awesome memories. Love it as a fan.
will you love all these first round exits because his contract prevents having depth?

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Old
04-18-2017, 04:53 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
Yes. He is the face of the franchise; his marketability and what he means to hockey in the Chicago alone makes him worth it.
how marketable is he if he isn't producing and the team keeps losing in the first round?

how long can you live off the past?

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Old
04-18-2017, 04:56 PM
  #115
HowsUrBreath
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is toews is such a great leader, he should've taken less money for the betterment of the team

taking more than he deserves screams ME ME ME I ONLY CARE ABOUT ME

crosby took less money, tom brady took less money in the nfl

those are real leaders

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Old
04-18-2017, 04:57 PM
  #116
SmellOfVictory
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Originally Posted by VoidCreature View Post
I'm not sure anyone in the league is worth 10.5 million. Maybe McDavid.

The crazy thing is this was considered a hometown discount at the time. Hard to imagine what he would have gotten on the open market.
Depends who you asked. A lot of people defended the contract at the time, but there were many detractors, as well. I don't remember anyone saying "hometown discount" so much as "this is the new normal for contracts, get used to it."

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Old
04-18-2017, 05:48 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowsUrBreath View Post
is toews is such a great leader, he should've taken less money for the betterment of the team

taking more than he deserves screams ME ME ME I ONLY CARE ABOUT ME

crosby took less money, tom brady took less money in the nfl

those are real leaders
No he didn't. Crosby has a lower cap for the same reason that Keith and Hossa do. Because the number dives down to 3 million at the end of the contract, after starting at 12 million per year up front.

And because he's [seemingly] superstitious when it comes to his birth year. That helps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Depends who you asked. A lot of people defended the contract at the time, but there were many detractors, as well. I don't remember anyone saying "hometown discount" so much as "this is the new normal for contracts, get used to it."
Not a home-town discount really, simply less money than he would have had on the open market.

Remember, he would have not only hit the open market as a 3 time Stanley Cup winner (and captain, for whatever importance GMs put on that), but it would have been DIRECTLY after putting up 21 points in 23 games on the way to the third cup. He would have been a free agent at the absolute peak of his value.

Stamkos, who has proven less durable, isn't as strong a possession driver, and has worse PPG in the playoffs, came to market and was reportedly offered 12 million + endorsement godhood by the Toronto Maple Leafs. And supposedly there were offers from Buffalo and Detroit that weren't too far off that.

UFA dollars get crazy.


Last edited by JaegerDice: 04-18-2017 at 05:57 PM.
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Old
04-18-2017, 05:54 PM
  #118
Hunter368
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Easy, nope.

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Old
04-18-2017, 06:38 PM
  #119
Legionnaire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowsUrBreath View Post
how marketable is he if he isn't producing and the team keeps losing in the first round?

how long can you live off the past?
As long as he's on the team, and even after, there will be many Toews jerseys sold. He will still be the player of whom many kids aspire.

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Old
04-18-2017, 06:50 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by The Toews Era View Post
Most of the time toews doesnt play with kane. Bergeron and marchand are however tied at the hip, boosting their combined stats a lot more than if they were on separate lines. Just proving my point even more. Even playing together all the time, bergeron hasnt come close to toews or kanes playoff production (and not even krejcis)
Until this year, Marchand had more than 60 points ONCE (in 15-16...). I am sure that Bergeron got a huge boost by having someone put up 50-55 points alongside him, for the biggest part of his career. I am also sure that Toews' best line mate never even put up 50-55 points. It was Toews putting up points all by himself. Am I doing this right?

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Old
04-18-2017, 07:05 PM
  #121
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I Actually heard a member of the media criticize Toews today. That does not happen often.

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Old
04-18-2017, 07:06 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HowsUrBreath View Post
is toews is such a great leader, he should've taken less money for the betterment of the team

taking more than he deserves screams ME ME ME I ONLY CARE ABOUT ME

crosby took less money, tom brady took less money in the nfl

those are real leaders
I agree with this.

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Old
04-18-2017, 07:08 PM
  #123
Cruel11
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Originally Posted by dahrougem2 View Post
Depends on which version of Kopitar you're getting. I certainly wouldn't want the one who showed up this season.
1 bad season in his career lol. He has always been consistent in production.

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Old
04-18-2017, 07:14 PM
  #124
JaegerDice
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Originally Posted by HowsUrBreath View Post
will you love all these first round exits because his contract prevents having depth?
Is this a serious question?

The Blackhawks went 50 years without a cup and were an embarrassment through the Dollar Bill years.

If the Blackhawks never win another cup for the entirety of Toews contract, that's less than a 5th of the time many waited for the 2010 cup. And the 8 years, at their hypothetical worst, don't match the frustration and sadness of the late 90s through to mid 2000s.

Are you seriously asking if I can handle some tough times, after being taken from the depths of hockey fan misery to genuine hockey fan euphoria?

Yes. 100 times yes. I make that deal every day.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk41 View Post
Toews made $35 million during the three-cup run era. The cups were already bought for that $35 million. The extra $90 million is after-the-fact.

Jesus.
It's almost as if the NHL CBA ensures that players are underpaid for the bulk of their career and then make up the difference once they hit UFA.

Again, I'll ask. Show me a Blackhawks roster without Toews that is better than the roster with him. Removing him doesn't make them a lottery team, assuming Kane's production and the acquisition of Panarin are constants, just a playoff bubble team, so they won't be able to draft his replacement any time soon.

So you're looking at UFAs and trades. Check out the UFA market in the summer of 2015. Brainstorm some viable trades and/or take back some that the Blackhawks were forced to make.


Last edited by JaegerDice: 04-18-2017 at 07:27 PM.
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Old
04-18-2017, 07:27 PM
  #125
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Highly overrated. Thinking they were not deep enough to win without him is strange. Were the Hawks that shallow and terrible?

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