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Who are the Jets losing to expansion? Better question is who are we getting!

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Old
05-15-2017, 02:59 PM
  #101
northendninja
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Originally Posted by Arthur Fonzarelli View Post
My flip side argument to my last post is that high quality Europeans are available in droves for Vegas to select. Should they decide to ice Team Europe, Dano might slot in nicely.
It's not only if dano is worth more than a third. It's of the other forwards that are available to them in expansion, is dano worth a draft pick more than taking a different forward in that roster spot. Would you pass on dano to gain a third and just take one of the other forwards? Vegas will have to make those choices...

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05-15-2017, 03:38 PM
  #102
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So is Vegas going to draft 30 NHL players then trade away 6-8 that they'd put on waivers anyways for prospects/picks? I remember reading one mock draft where Vegas drafted Armia then sent him to the minors lol. I wonder if they'd rather get a young forward from the Jets that doesn't need waivers instead like Lemieux.

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05-15-2017, 03:48 PM
  #103
Arthur Fonzarelli
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Originally Posted by northendninja View Post
It's not only if dano is worth more than a third. It's of the other forwards that are available to them in expansion, is dano worth a draft pick more than taking a different forward in that roster spot. Would you pass on dano to gain a third and just take one of the other forwards? Vegas will have to make those choices...
Not sure where the "third" is coming from...

I'm assuming this has something to do with your earlier post regarding colluding with Vegas to ensure certain players aren't taken.

I really can't see this happening. Chevy would be GM of the decade if able to go 7-3-1 & then create a side deal to protect Myers in exchange for a "third"

All of Vegas' selections will have value above well above a 3R pick. Take Myers. Would anyone in the NHL turn down his cost controlled contract for a 3R pick? Nope, not even if involved five 3R picks.

Even if we play make believe & assume "side deals" will be as easy as many seem to think, it's only logical for Vegas to want value at par for any of these "side deals". Chevy wants 7-3-1 & an understanding Myers isn't selected, he better be prepared to offer something at equal value to Myers.

Myers value is significant. Jets expose Myers=Vegas taking Myers. What's significant? Considerably more than than one of Copp, Lowry, Armia, or Dano.

Tell me again why the Jets would do this? We're only losing one forward presently. This make believe scenario would cost Chevy more.

Vegas is here to build a franchise, not help out the Jets & their relatively small problems of losing a 3rd line forward.

Jets are hopefully ready to part with some young talent to acquire whatever 2nd pairing LD Vegas is willing to deal. I'm hoping the Jets are gaining a defensemen at the draft, not losing one.

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05-15-2017, 04:09 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by bumblebeeman View Post
So is Vegas going to draft 30 NHL players then trade away 6-8 that they'd put on waivers anyways for prospects/picks? I remember reading one mock draft where Vegas drafted Armia then sent him to the minors lol. I wonder if they'd rather get a young forward from the Jets that doesn't need waivers instead like Lemieux.
Only Lemieux is expansion exempt so they won't be selected him in their initial 30 selections.

But yes you're understanding the premise of this thread.

Vegas will certainly be selecting one of Armia, Lowry, Copp or Dano. That doesn't mean that any of those four will ever play for Vegas. Although selected they may not ever even be announced as having been chosen in the first place. My understanding is the "Vegas' roster" is being announced June 21st, not each expansion weekend deal they make leading up to it.

Vegas will certainly be eying the Jets prospect pool. I firmly believe at least two of Lemieux, Petan, Roslovic, Connor, Lipon, Tanev, Stanley, De Leo, Harkins will never again wear Jets/Moose jerseys.

There's far too many middle six forwards in the system and not enough playing time to go around for all of them to play in these rolls.

It's rare a team needs to build an entire farm system. If there was ever a time to be overpaying for prospects, this is the time.

Chevy better be busy or I'm joining the ranks of those calling for his head.

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05-15-2017, 05:35 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Arthur Fonzarelli View Post
Not sure where the "third" is coming from...

I'm assuming this has something to do with your earlier post regarding colluding with Vegas to ensure certain players aren't taken.

I really can't see this happening. Chevy would be GM of the decade if able to go 7-3-1 & then create a side deal to protect Myers in exchange for a "third"

All of Vegas' selections will have value above well above a 3R pick. Take Myers. Would anyone in the NHL turn down his cost controlled contract for a 3R pick? Nope, not even if involved five 3R picks.

Even if we play make believe & assume "side deals" will be as easy as many seem to think, it's only logical for Vegas to want value at par for any of these "side deals". Chevy wants 7-3-1 & an understanding Myers isn't selected, he better be prepared to offer something at equal value to Myers.

Myers value is significant. Jets expose Myers=Vegas taking Myers. What's significant? Considerably more than than one of Copp, Lowry, Armia, or Dano.

Tell me again why the Jets would do this? We're only losing one forward presently. This make believe scenario would cost Chevy more.

Vegas is here to build a franchise, not help out the Jets & their relatively small problems of losing a 3rd line forward.

Jets are hopefully ready to part with some young talent to acquire whatever 2nd pairing LD Vegas is willing to deal. I'm hoping the Jets are gaining a defensemen at the draft, not losing one.
or jets can ask an over 30 ld dman to waive his nmc and all is solved. if this doesn't happen and it will option b is to buy him out for 1.5 mill a year for 2 years. he will waive or get bought out but the jets wont lose myers lowry or perreault for a dman they have no plans to re-sign with 1 year left on contract.

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05-15-2017, 05:53 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Arthur Fonzarelli View Post
Not sure where the "third" is coming from...

I'm assuming this has something to do with your earlier post regarding colluding with Vegas to ensure certain players aren't taken.

I really can't see this happening. Chevy would be GM of the decade if able to go 7-3-1 & then create a side deal to protect Myers in exchange for a "third"

All of Vegas' selections will have value above well above a 3R pick. Take Myers. Would anyone in the NHL turn down his cost controlled contract for a 3R pick? Nope, not even if involved five 3R picks.

Even if we play make believe & assume "side deals" will be as easy as many seem to think, it's only logical for Vegas to want value at par for any of these "side deals". Chevy wants 7-3-1 & an understanding Myers isn't selected, he better be prepared to offer something at equal value to Myers.

Myers value is significant. Jets expose Myers=Vegas taking Myers. What's significant? Considerably more than than one of Copp, Lowry, Armia, or Dano.

Tell me again why the Jets would do this? We're only losing one forward presently. This make believe scenario would cost Chevy more.

Vegas is here to build a franchise, not help out the Jets & their relatively small problems of losing a 3rd line forward.

Jets are hopefully ready to part with some young talent to acquire whatever 2nd pairing LD Vegas is willing to deal. I'm hoping the Jets are gaining a defensemen at the draft, not losing one.

Why is myers going to be available?? There is no doubt in my mind they are doing 7-3-1 and Toby is either waiving or being bought out.

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05-15-2017, 06:25 PM
  #107
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or jets can ask an over 30 ld dman to waive his nmc and all is solved. if this doesn't happen and it will option b is to buy him out for 1.5 mill a year for 2 years. he will waive or get bought out but the jets wont lose myers lowry or perreault for a dman they have no plans to re-sign with 1 year left on contract.
Enstrom would be foolish to waive unless he really wants to stay with the Jets and they are interested in extending him for a few more years. Otherwise, it's better for him to get bought out and become a UFA.

Another possibility is that he'll want to get back to Sweden for personal reasons for next season. That would leave a sizable hole on an already thin LD.

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05-15-2017, 06:30 PM
  #108
Arthur Fonzarelli
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Why is myers going to be available?? There is no doubt in my mind they are doing 7-3-1 and Toby is either 1) waiving or being 2) bought out.
1) Enstrom already on record as saying he hasn't been approached about waiving his NMC. Could it happen? Sure, but keep in mind the Jets have been about as "player friendly" as a franchise could get. Will they really ask a player going through a very recent personal crisis to waive the NMC that he had his agent negotiate into his contract? . I think it's low a low probability scenario.

2) If the Jets buy him out, the Jets can't resign him. He's gone. Morrissey, Chiarot, Stuart, Melchiori, Niku, Stanley now represent the entire organization depth for at LD. We already needed to acquire immediate help on the left side for both now & the future. That loss would make this problem all the more apparent & urgent.

Please follow up your thought process with how the Jets will look next season once Enstrom is gone. Does it resemble this?

1st pair: Morrissey / Trouba
2nd pair: Chiarot / Byfuglien
3rd pair Melchiori / Nogier

press box Stuart/ ?

Gross.

Postma has every reason to sign elsewhere, although Maurice finally began playing him last year after 2 seasons rotting in the press box. There's no reason for him to be loyal.

Niku & Poolman will start in the AHL. Their signing spells doom for Kichton staying in this organization. Kostalek certainly isn't ready. Stanley isn't leaving junior anytime soon.

Do you feel a trade could happen? If so you're ok with loosing an asset for assistance at LD. What would that cost? Copp? Armia? Lowry? Armia? Maybe even two of them? Wouldn't it be best to simply keep Enstrom & only lose one forward? Perhaps 4-4-1 isn't sounding so bad?

We could deal Myers. Isn't his value at an all time low following last season? He also serves as the backup plan should Trouba play hard ball with his next contract. Loosing Myers gives the Trouba camp even more negotiating power.

I'm open to fresh ideas...but all the best ones are already listed.

Feel free to chime in.

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05-15-2017, 06:48 PM
  #109
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The big unknown right now is the what Vegas is asking from teams to protect "extra" players. The other unknown is their intention of going really young and stockpiling draft picks, or if they need/want to field the most competitive team right out of the gate. These are questions that will great affect what will happen with the Jets D. Other teams will also not want to lose their D men for "nothing" as well. Thus the point of my initial post. Approach Vegas first, tell them that they are going 7-3-1 and that dano will be the best player available. At that point, I would ask them that based on that fact, what would it take for Vegas to take dano regardless of other assets the jets may be able to trade for. I don't know why Vegas wouldn't consider that as either they get Dano, or get Dano +

So, using that, say they agree that they will take Dano regardless of who is unprotected as long as the jets add a 3rd round draft pick. This would allow the jets to approach other teams for deals on guys other teams may lose.

Yea. I understand Vegas may lose some leverage with other teams doing something like this, but they have a finite amount of time to make these moves and I would bet that after all the smoke clears, at least one team will have made a deal like this with Vegas. So, why not the jets? Being able to work something like this out BEFORE expansion draft would be incredibly valuable, and worth the pick and perhaps even a young prospect that may interest Vegas.


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05-15-2017, 07:09 PM
  #110
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1.15m signing bonus and 1.533m per year for two years to buy Enstrom out....not going to happen. If Enstrom is left unprotected, Babs gets on the horn and makes a deal with Vegas immediately. If we lose Enstrom without any other LHD coming in, we are in trouble.

If Enstrom's play improves over last year and I expect it will, I would be okay with a 2 year deal for him to play 3LHD unless Chevy picks up help via free agency or a trade or Poolman proves he can play 3LHD.

Make a deal with Vegas and send more to them while getting back that LHD and pick up a goalie via trade or free agency.

13th overall, Petan (doesn't need to clear waivers) and Matthias (drafted) for a good 2LHD.

edit ... we don't lose much from our lineup and fix our LHD. If Chevy picks up a good goalie, I can see us doing some serious damage next year.

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05-15-2017, 07:41 PM
  #111
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1.15m signing bonus and 1.533m per year for two years to buy Enstrom out....not going to happen. If Enstrom is left unprotected, Babs gets on the horn and makes a deal with Vegas immediately. If we lose Enstrom without any other LHD coming in, we are in trouble.

If Enstrom's play improves over last year and I expect it will, I would be okay with a 2 year deal for him to play 3LHD unless Chevy picks up help via free agency or a trade or Poolman proves he can play 3LHD.

Make a deal with Vegas and send more to them while getting back that LHD and pick up a goalie via trade or free agency.

13th overall, Petan (doesn't need to clear waivers) and Matthias (drafted) for a good 2LHD.

edit ... we don't lose much from our lineup and fix our LHD. If Chevy picks up a good goalie, I can see us doing some serious damage next year.
Just because he waives doesn't mean vegas will take him . They wont. Dont think that signing bonus means much it is part of his 5.75 salary. His buy out is 3 mill over 2 years.

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05-16-2017, 02:42 AM
  #112
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The big unknown right now is the what Vegas is asking from teams to protect "extra" players.
Another unknown is if this will occur at all.

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Originally Posted by northendninja View Post
The other unknown is their intention of going really young and stockpiling draft picks, or if they need/want to field the most competitive team right out of the gate.These are questions that will great affect what will happen with the Jets D
Anyway you cut this Vegas will declare a 23 man roster like every other team. The difference is they can't waive the remaining 7 players. They have to trade them. Some will be defensemen. Left shooting defensemen. There's no question they will be dealing some off. Hopefully the Jets are buyers.

"There's been lots of talk of who the Jet's are losing...better question is who are we getting?"

When I said that, I was clearly referring to this unique opportunity with Vegas.

Stop fixating on who we're losing. The Jets have an opportunity to be a BETTER team following the draft.

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Other teams will also not want to lose their D men for "nothing"
But Vegas deserves to spend $500 million on a franchise? They don't owe any teams anything. You think Vegas cares about these four Jets that this very website gave the following prospect grades to not long ago:

Copp: C-7.0
Lowry:C-7.0
Armia:C-7.0
Dano:B-7.5

They've got better things to. A 4-4-1 Jets system exposes a 3rd line forward & gets them off cheaper than the price 27 other teams will pay.

[On a side note kudos to New Jersey & Arizona, two teams with little to offer Vegas as well.]

If Vegas has their eyes on anything it's our young forward depth of players ineligible for the expansion draft that is the envy of the league. They want a Kyle Connor or a Jack Roslovic, maybe even a Logan Stanley (oh please!) from the Jets & the only way they are acquiring such is by having something we want in return...left defensemen.

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Thus the point of my initial post. Approach Vegas first, tell them that they are going 7-3-1 and that dano will be the best player available. At that point, I would ask them that based on that fact, what would it take for Vegas to take dano regardless of other assets the jets may be able to trade for. I don't know why Vegas wouldn't consider that as either they get Dano, or get Dano +
Hey Vegas, we've got this really good player born just south of you, you know Tyler Myers from Texas? Yeah he's pretty good. A Calder winner. 6'7". He's needed surgery the past 3 seasons, in fact we knew he needed it when we traded for him. Anyways we finally got him healthy & expect him to do great things. Here's the thing..we don't want you to have him. I guess you could select him & trade him and get something totally awesome back....but no you don't want that. We want you to not select him. Why? Ummm so we can protect even more of our roster. Yep. We're serious. Another 3 forwards you can't take. But we've got DANO!! Sure he's no Myers but ...wait for it....

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...take Dano regardless of who is unprotected...the jets will add a 3rd round draft pick.
Don't worry, I don't think this qualifies as collusion.

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Originally Posted by northendninja View Post
This would allow the jets to approach other teams for deals on guys other teams may lose.
Why not just approach the Knights? They're the one's selecting these players.

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Yea. I understand Vegas may lose some leverage with other teams doing something like this
Yep

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At least one team will have made a deal like this with Vegas. So, why not the jets? Being able to work something like this out BEFORE expansion draft would be incredibly valuable, and worth the pick and perhaps even a young prospect that may interest Vegas.
So in the end you've done all this & achieved...the loss of Dano & a 3rd round pick.

Chevy better have much bigger goals than this for mid June!

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05-16-2017, 06:30 AM
  #113
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Just because he waives doesn't mean vegas will take him . They wont. Dont think that signing bonus means much it is part of his 5.75 salary. His buy out is 3 mill over 2 years.
they pay the signing bonus plus 2 thirds of what he has left. 1.15m signing bonus plus 1.53m for two years... Not much of a saving. Like I said if he is exposed TO cuts a deal with them immediately and he will be playing for Toronto.

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05-16-2017, 10:14 AM
  #114
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"Another unknown is if this will occur at all. "

-apparently (according to the beat writer of the Blue Jackets that was interviewed yesterday) the Knights already have many deals in place

"Anyway you cut this Vegas will declare a 23 man roster like every other team. The difference is they can't waive the remaining 7 players. They have to trade them. Some will be defensemen. Left shooting defensemen. There's no question they will be dealing some off. Hopefully the Jets are buyers."

-They will not have 30 NHL players on that team post expansion. The value of those excess 7 are nil it if comes to that as they would HAVE to move them, and other GMs would know that and the value of the excess is MUCH lower than if they dealt those "slots" prior to the expansion draft. They will have a 23 man roster, some AHL players and a stable of draft picks immediately post Expansion Draft.

"They've got better things to. A 4-4-1 Jets system exposes a 3rd line forward & gets them off cheaper than the price 27 other teams will pay"

but why on earth would they expose copp, lowry, and armia for one year of Toby? how does that make any sense?

Your whole argument is based on them going 4-4-1, and I cannot see them doing that.

The achievement is losing dano (who you would lose anyway in a 7-3-1) and a few draft picks, keeping toby, being able to approach teams BEFORE expansion and make offers to add. Having the flexibility to work with other teams prior to expansion would be insanely valuable, and you could get a guy like raanta or fleury.

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05-16-2017, 11:33 AM
  #115
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what the jets should do...

With the couple of Russians signed/to be signed by Vegas, they will need only 21 pros to fill up their roster... leaving 9 "deals" to be made with teams. Chevy needs to get in there, and here is how it should go down:

-make a deal with Vegas in that in addition to the 7 and 3, the jets are allowed to "protect" an additional 5 skaters, for this vegas gains the Jets 2017 3rd round pick and then can pick a decent AHLer like kosmachuck. - No way is a 3rd enough to get this from VGK. Not even close.

-then offer the islanders the 2017 2nd and 5th round picks for Calvin de Haan. (perhaps they may even want a roster player like Petan). - No way is a 3rd enough to get this from VGKNYI. Not even close. Even assuming they are willing to move him cheaply rather than lose him you will have to beat competing offers from other teams. But CDH is coming off a great season. They are not going to lose him.

-can keep Toby, and the extra 5 protected can be: Dano, De Haan, Myers and two more.

-then make a deal for either Raanta or Fleury and then use one of those remaining protected spots for the second goalie.

-leaves the Jets 1 more spot for whoever they want.

Summarize:

lose, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th round picks (plus whatever it takes for the goalie deal)
gain, de haan and fluery/raanta - Those picks are not netting that return. And it really is not even remotely close.

wouldnt have to worry about losing anyone, setting a buy-out precedence, etc etc.


Defense
morrissey-trouba
de haan-buff
toby-myers
I have been pushing the idea for months that we offer VGK an inducement to take a certain player thus leaving us free to do whatever we please, so I am not opposed to your concept. It is the prices I have trouble with.

If it looks like their best choice is likely to be among Lowry, Armia, Copp and Dano they will choose Lowry. I honestly don't think there is any doubt about that. If we would prefer that they take Dano what would we need to add to Dano to make that happen? What would they see as the difference in value between Dano and Lowry? I think Dano + 3rd should do it but they may need a little more. I offer Lemieux. I may be off base here but trying to build a team from scratch might be the one time when quantity works.

Then in a separate deal we might be able to get a LHD and/or a goalie from them. The prices for these will be higher if the players are good.

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Anyway you cut this Vegas will declare a 23 man roster like every other team. The difference is they can't waive the remaining 7 players. They have to trade them. Some will be defensemen. Left shooting defensemen. There's no question they will be dealing some off. Hopefully the Jets are buyers.

"There's been lots of talk of who the Jet's are losing...better question is who are we getting?"

When I said that, I was clearly referring to this unique opportunity with Vegas.

Stop fixating on who we're losing. The Jets have an opportunity to be a BETTER team following the draft.

They've got better things to. A 4-4-1 Jets system exposes a 3rd line forward & gets them off cheaper than the price 27 other teams will pay.

If Vegas has their eyes on anything it's our young forward depth of players ineligible for the expansion draft that is the envy of the league. They want a Kyle Connor or a Jack Roslovic, maybe even a Logan Stanley (oh please!) from the Jets & the only way they are acquiring such is by having something we want in return...left defensemen.

Hey Vegas, we've got this really good player born just south of you, you know Tyler Myers from Texas? Yeah he's pretty good. A Calder winner. 6'7". He's needed surgery the past 3 seasons, in fact we knew he needed it when we traded for him. Anyways we finally got him healthy & expect him to do great things. Here's the thing..we don't want you to have him. I guess you could select him & trade him and get something totally awesome back....but no you don't want that. We want you to not select him. Why? Ummm so we can protect even more of our roster. Yep. We're serious. Another 3 forwards you can't take. But we've got DANO!! Sure he's no Myers but ...wait for it....

Don't worry, I don't think this qualifies as collusion.

Why not just approach the Knights? They're the one's selecting these players.

Chevy better have much bigger goals than this for mid June!
I agree with your premise that there is an opportunity here. We have assets the VGK should want.

There are 3 things on the shopping list; 1) the player we must give them, 2) get a good LHD (either 2nd or 3rd pair, 2nd preferred), 3) a goalie.

At this point I think my preference would be to get Grubauer from VGK. They will want a nice price.

I suspect that Chevy is going to try for either Elliott or Bernier in FA. In that case we can scratch item 3 from the list.

Assets I think we should make available for the 2 remaining items; all '17 picks from 2 on, Dano, Myers, Petan, Kosmachuk, Lemieux, De Leo, Kichton, Melchiori, Stuart. Some may balk at including Myers and the 2nd but they are worth it for a good 2LHD.

Keep in mind that there will still be a market. If VGK get some good goalies and D men then there will be lots of other teams making offers for them so we will still have to pay value for them. Also, consider that if we can give them a 3rd + Lemieux to take Dano then other teams can make similar deals. NYI will offer them some pieces in order to not lose CDH, for example. So the players available to trade with VGK may not be as good as everyone seems to be assuming.

So if we can do Dano + 3rd + Lemieux/Kosmachuk for our XD contribution we need a LHD. I would do Myers + 2nd for CDH but I doubt he is available. We might have to go for something like Petan + for Theodore. Ducks fans are down on Theo recently. That might mean the price has dropped.

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05-16-2017, 02:22 PM
  #116
Arthur Fonzarelli
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-apparently (according to the beat writer of the Blue Jackets that was interviewed yesterday) the Knights already have many deals in place
The "deals" Vegas is speaking about with teams aren't necessarily "deals" to protect players.

You seem 100% fixated on that piece of the puzzle & refuse to move on.

That's not the topic of this thread.

This is a good reason why texting and writing cause so much confusion. We're pages into a thread & I've described my thought in detail several times...& you just aren't getting it.

I'm suggesting LESS effort should be put towards worrying about who we're protecting, while substantially MORE effort should be put towards establishing compensation deals with Vegas for selecting players we want & then trading for them.

It is quite possible many of Jason Demers, Jack Johnson, Calvin De Haan, Brayden McNabb, Jamie Oleksiak, Mirco Mueller, Griffin Rheinhart, Trevor Van Reimsdyk, Chris Wideman & Xavier Oellet will be available to Vegas.

Whereas you want to trade directly with those teams & complicate every teams protection lists further, I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible & accept the fact that every team is losing someone.

Here's an example of the type of conversation I believe is going on right now:

Chevy:
"Hey George..please take De Hann...if you do we'll offer you Jack Roslovic, Brendan Lemieux & a third round pick (I threw that last bit in to keep your interest)

McPhee:
"I don't know Chevy, if available we plan to keep De Haan. We see him as our #1 & plan to play him with Van Riemsdyk. Have you considered perhaps Jack Johnson instead? We spoke with the Blue Jackets yesterday & it appears they'll be exposing him"

Chevy:
"Johnson is too old & he's a 2018 UFA. If you select him we have no interest. We're hoping on someone younger. Who are you selecting from Detroit? We'd offer you a similar package for Xavier Oullet"

THESE are the kind of deals this thread is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by northendninja View Post
Your whole argument is based on them going 4-4-1, and I cannot see them doing that.
Actually my point has zero to do with either 7-3-1, 4-4-1...my opening statement was I didn't want to discuss that. It's been done to death. You realize there is an expansion draft thread dedicated to this right? You can continue to argue that here:

https://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/s....php?t=2210775

Regardless of what the Jets protection list looks like, it has NOTHING to do with my argument. The topic here should have given that away:

"Speculation: Who are the Jets losing to expansion? Better question is who are we getting!"

Comprehension doesn't appear to be your strong suit.


Last edited by Arthur Fonzarelli: 05-16-2017 at 03:42 PM.
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05-16-2017, 02:28 PM
  #117
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Why does it say who are we getting when we're losing a player?

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05-16-2017, 02:52 PM
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Arthur Fonzarelli
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Originally Posted by northendninja View Post
Having the flexibility to work with other teams prior to expansion would be insanely valuable, and you could get a guy like raanta or fleury.
So again utterly poor reasoning. Trade for Raanta or Fleury. Now you have to expose another goalie at expansion.

Exposing Hellebuyck=losing Hellebuyck. You realize there's a reason the USA continuously place him on their international teams. He's kinda good...& young.

But who cares. Fleury 33 next season (who has a NMC...so good luck with that) & his $6million dollar deal is great!

Plus Hutchinson can back him up...Yes!! Then when he walks in 2019 Hutch can take over & mentor Comrie! That's great too!!!

Again ANY deal with teams directly is just another player for each team to protect. There are few teams that are ideal trading partners right now. Moving parts have consequences for both teams.

Trade for Raanta & give them a defensemen? They'll have to expose him. They've got Marc Staal, Dan Girard & Ryan McDonagh.

Trade Raanta for a forward? They've got Nash, Stepan, Greider, Zuccarello, Miller, Zibanejad, Hayes, Cirri & Fast already. Now they're exposing someone else.

Trade Raanta for a goalie? Lundqvist's NMC mean that goalie is then exposed.

Trade Raanta for a prospect? He's a UFA in 2018. Weren't you just arguing 1 year of Enstrom wasn't worth Copp, Armia, Lowry, Dano?

That's just their side. The Jet's now have to expose Hutchinson, likely lose him & in the end replace a blue chip goalie prospect on a cost controlled contract that is stuck with the organization for 3 more years with Raanta whose contract expires in a season.

That deal doesn't work for either side.

Most importantly the Rangers are in violation of minimum exposure requirements if they do what you suggest. Every team must expose a goalie under contract in 2017-2018. Lundqvist has a NMC. They only have one other goalie signed, Raanta. The Rangers aren't even allowed to make your deal.

So to repeat...deals with other teams prior to expansion...VERY complicated.

Deals with Vegas DURING expansion...VERY easy...May be the busiest trade weekend in NHL history.


Last edited by Arthur Fonzarelli: 05-16-2017 at 03:21 PM.
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05-16-2017, 03:00 PM
  #119
Arthur Fonzarelli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
Why does it say who are we getting when we're losing a player?
You asked that back on May 3rd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
Why does it say "who are we getting"?
& I responded to you already back in post #89.

It helps if you also read post #1.

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05-16-2017, 03:02 PM
  #120
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The way I understand it Vegas and the rest of the GM's will get everyone's protected list at the same time.

So in this instance with the idea that we're looking to ADD someone, the Jets are essentially bidding against all the other teams, and need to make it worth Vegas's while for them not to keep the player themselves.

So using De Haan as a an example, if he's on the unprotected list I would imagine Vegas would be listening to offers from many teams. At the end of the day, they'll have to decide if it's better to take an offer from another team, or just keep the player. Plus, maybe there is a team making an offer to Vegas for Strome? In that instance, the Jets need to offer more for De Haan than he's worth to Vegas for them to keep, and more than the other team is offering for Strome.

And so on and so on down the list.

Conversely, on who we are going to lose it;s the same thing. If we go 4/4/1 and say Lowry and Armia are the two nice available pieces, we can offer Vegas Dano and a 3rd all day, but they might like Lowry alone better. Plus, multiple teams could see Lowry as a valuable piece, and put in their own offers to Vegas for him.

It would be fun to be in the Vegas war room for the days between the lists coming out and the reveal. It's going to be a huge auction.

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05-16-2017, 03:03 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
The way I understand it Vegas and the rest of the GM's will get everyone's protected list at the same time.

So in this instance with the idea that we're looking to ADD someone, the Jets are essentially bidding against all the other teams, and need to make it worth Vegas's while for them not to keep the player themselves.

So using De Haan as a an example, if he's on the unprotected list I would imagine Vegas would be listening to offers from many teams. At the end of the day, they'll have to decide if it's better to take an offer from another team, or just keep the player. Plus, maybe there is a team making an offer to Vegas for Strome? In that instance, the Jets need to offer more for De Haan than he's worth to Vegas for them to keep, and more than the other team is offering for Strome.

And so on and so on down the list.

Conversely, on who we are going to lose it;s the same thing. If we go 4/4/1 and say Lowry and Armia are the two nice available pieces, we can offer Vegas Dano and a 3rd all day, but they might like Lowry alone better. Plus, multiple teams could see Lowry as a valuable piece, and putting in their own offers to Vegas for him.

It would be fun to be in the Vegas war room for the days between the lists coming out and the reveal. It's going to be a huge auction.
Totally agree. Huge auction day.

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05-16-2017, 03:30 PM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Fonzarelli View Post
So again utterly poor reasoning. Trade for Raanta or Fleury. Now you have to expose another goalie at expansion.


Exposing Hellebuyck=losing Hellebuyck. You realize there's a reason the USA continuously place him on their international teams. He's kinda good...& young.

But who cares. Fleury 33 next season (who has a NMC...so good luck with that) & his $6million dollar deal is great!

Plus Hutchinson can back him up...Yes!! Then when he walks in 2019 Hutch can take over & mentor Comrie! That's great too!!!

Again ANY deal with teams directly is just another player for each team to protect. There are few teams that are ideal trading partners right now. Moving parts have consequences for both teams.

Trade for Raanta & give them a defensemen? They'll have to expose him. They've got Marc Staal, Dan Girard & Ryan McDonagh.

Trade Raanta for a forward? They've got Nash, Stepan, Greider, Zuccarello, Miller, Zibanejad, Hayes, Cirri & Fast already. Now they're exposing someone else.

Trade Raanta for a goalie? Lundqvist's NMC mean that goalie is then exposed.

Trade Raanta for a prospect? He's a UFA in 2018. Weren't you just arguing 1 year of Enstrom wasn't worth Copp, Armia, Lowry, Dano?

So to repeat...deals with other teams prior to expansion...VERY complicated.

Deals with Vegas DURING expansion...VERY easy...May be the busiest trade weekend in NHL history.

This whole reply of yours sounds very nice, profound and educated but again you were missing the whole point of my initial post. If they can work out a deal with Vegas before expansion, where vegas, no matter who the jets have exposed have to take Dano, then the Jets can acquire Raanta, De Haan, or whoever they want and not lose them to expansion as Vegas and the Jets already made a deal for who they will be taking from Winnipeg....

So, back to the whole point of this whole thread (who are we getting/losing)

Jets LOSE Dano and whatever else it takes for vegas to agree to take dano, regardless of who else may be exposed.

Jets GAIN a massive edge in that they can trade others for players that teams may have to expose and lose for nothing, whereas the Jets can then expose them and NOT lose them as they already made the deal with vegas.

Since you played the phone game....

Chevy: "hey george, we are going 7-3-1, so, looks like Dano will be the best available player to you.. Knowing this is how it will play out, how about you guys take Dano AND our 3rd if you will commit to taking dano regardless of who we have exposed"

McPhee: "So, either we get Dano or dano and a 3rd from you guys? But what if you guys then pick up players we may be interested in, we may lose on some further capital.... How about you give us X in addition to the 3rd, and we will take Dano?"

This is where I dont know what that price would be, but it would be a decent way for McPhee to gain draft picks while still getting the same player he would be getting anyway. I would guess they will be getting quite a few offers like this.

If something like this can be accepted, then the Jets could approach other teams with Expansion problems... ie: X + hutch to Rangers for Raanta, Rangers expose hutch, plus gain the X. Jets expose Raanta, but again, Vegas takes dano as previously agreed on.

I am unsure many teams are in a position as the Jets where they can more readily deal young prospects and draft picks. But, perhaps I am way off on that assessment.

Lastly, I think there will be more trades done leading up to the expansion draft than during the expansion draft. All the Gms will likely know who each other are protecting well before the lists are officially released.


Last edited by northendninja: 05-16-2017 at 03:53 PM.
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05-16-2017, 03:50 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northendninja View Post
then the Jets can acquire Raanta.
I just pointed out that deal can't happen. Raanta is the only goalie that allows the Rangers to meet league stipulated minimum exposure requirements.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansi...es/c-281010592

iii) One goaltender who is under contract in 2017-18 or will be a restricted free agent at the expiration of his current contract immediately prior to 2017-18. If the club elects to make a restricted free agent goaltender available in order to meet this requirement, that goaltender must have received his qualifying offer prior to the submission of the club's protected list.

1) Lundqvist NMC
2) Rannta UFA 2018
3) Mackenzie Skapski RFA 2017 unsigned
4) Magnus Hellberg RFA 2017 unsigned

Unless you want to now complicate a complicated scenario with more complications (did I really just have to write that) you're suggestion now involves having the Rangers trade for another goalie currently under contract.

EDIT: Upon finishing reading your last post I noticed you did do this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by northendninja View Post
then the Jets can acquire Raanta.If something like this can be accepted, then the Jets could approach other teams with Expansion problems... ie: X + hutch to Rangers for Raanta, Rangers expose hutch
Pretty sure however that the Rangers don't see Raanta being selected. Kevin Hayes is a bigger worry for them. I'd think they have every intention of playing Raanta next year. Hutch certainly isn't on par with Raanta.

The perfect spot for Hutch next next is on the Moose. Comrie gets to play 50-60 games with no other prospects in his way vying for ice time.

I would also hope the Jets are targeting an actual #1. Very disappointed that it appears Mason won't be that guy. Someone posted this mid April story earlier today:

http://www.courierpostonline.com/sto...art/100348988/


Last edited by Arthur Fonzarelli: 05-16-2017 at 04:03 PM.
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05-16-2017, 04:07 PM
  #124
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There will be a myriad of free agent backups available next year that are much better than hutch... I dont think the Rangers would ever actually use Hutch other than for exposing him.

As per the Moose, I feel they would like to get Phillips in there. Only reason Hutch was signed for the deal he got was for the Expansion eligibility.

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05-16-2017, 08:20 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
The way I understand it Vegas and the rest of the GM's will get everyone's protected list at the same time.

So in this instance with the idea that we're looking to ADD someone, the Jets are essentially bidding against all the other teams, and need to make it worth Vegas's while for them not to keep the player themselves.

So using De Haan as a an example, if he's on the unprotected list I would imagine Vegas would be listening to offers from many teams. At the end of the day, they'll have to decide if it's better to take an offer from another team, or just keep the player. Plus, maybe there is a team making an offer to Vegas for Strome? In that instance, the Jets need to offer more for De Haan than he's worth to Vegas for them to keep, and more than the other team is offering for Strome.

And so on and so on down the list.

Conversely, on who we are going to lose it;s the same thing. If we go 4/4/1 and say Lowry and Armia are the two nice available pieces, we can offer Vegas Dano and a 3rd all day, but they might like Lowry alone better. Plus, multiple teams could see Lowry as a valuable piece, and put in their own offers to Vegas for him.

It would be fun to be in the Vegas war room for the days between the lists coming out and the reveal. It's going to be a huge auction.
This. It would be riveting to be able to listen in on the offers and their decision making process. Even watching from the outside will be a whole lot of fun.

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