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National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

What are the Flames missing? Please read the OP first*

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Old
04-19-2017, 06:57 PM
  #76
McDavyCrockett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btimbit View Post
If there's one thing I'm not worried about, it's the D. Especially if they re-sign Stone. Engelland's likely gone and they have some strong D prospects as well

Fire the damn goalie coach, he's ruined everyone he's gotten his hands on. Then sign a legit #1 like Bishop, no more of this 1a/1b nonsense. As much as people point to McDavid for the Oilers turning things around, trading for Talbot was their best move of the decade
The Flames were in the running for trading for Talbot. Sather traded him to the Oilers for pennies on the dollar relative to the asking price from other teams, due to his legacy with the Oilers.

That sort of dumb luck (along with McDavid) simply doesn't happen for some teams.

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Old
04-19-2017, 07:14 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDavyCrockett View Post
The Flames were in the running for trading for Talbot. Sather traded him to the Oilers for pennies on the dollar relative to the asking price from other teams, due to his legacy with the Oilers.

That sort of dumb luck (along with McDavid) simply doesn't happen for some teams.

Boston traded Dougie Hamilton to Calgary because of the Oilers GM history, maybe we should go there again.

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Old
04-19-2017, 07:20 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDavyCrockett View Post
The Flames were in the running for trading for Talbot. Sather traded him to the Oilers for pennies on the dollar relative to the asking price from other teams, due to his legacy with the Oilers.

That sort of dumb luck (along with McDavid) simply doesn't happen for some teams.
I would actually believe that if it weren't for the timing, despite what Sather said. Sather didn't trade Talbot to us before the draft. He did it after the first round. At that point we likely had the best offer out there.

Also remember what these goalies were at that time. Talbot was largely unproven. He was a top goalie target, but also was an impending UFA who was not even allowed to re-sign until January. Lehner was worth a lot more because he came with many years of RFA control. Elliot had come off of a great season with St.Louis, and would have likely seemed like a better win-now asset at the time.

And really, without the upgrades to our D, Talbot's first season was largely similar to the kind of season that Elliot had with Calgary. Kind of all over the place.

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04-19-2017, 07:23 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper0220 View Post
Agree with everything you say but Bishop, Bishop will likely be looking for a long term contract with big money and he is 31, if you give him all that and he wets the bed, than you are ****ed.

Agree with you on the Flames goalie coach, he needs to go and Talbot was a very good move for the Oilers.
That's the thing though. I think we need a guy to live or die by. Whether that be a young goalie in the same vein as Talbot, or someone established like Bishop. Either way, I'm thinking we should stop swapping guys every 1-2 seasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Positive View Post
I just bring up Russell because the principle is there. He is a defensive shutdown D and PKer, and although I'd say he's worse than the three you mentioned, he's not far off just in defensive play.

The main acquisition for our D was Larsson, and you don't have anyone close to him in terms of owning the defensive zone.

The Flames D kind of reminds me of the Jets D in that way. Lots ability, but not much stability.
Curious question, how's Russell's advanced stats? It's odd that Edmonton is tooting his horn because we took a hell of a lot of grief trying to defend the fact he's more valuable than his advanced stats say. Many Flames fans didn't mind having him back as a UFA, but the salary wouldn't allow it. That being said, we need more defensive Dmen that can move the puck and police the back. Engelland is a DD, but not a great PMD and it causes troubles when he's paired with Bartkowski who also is a DD, but also seemingly not a great PMD.

We're also thinking we need to replace Engelland's Falcon punch when he goes off to Vegas. I dunno if we can (or should) punch by committee. Then again with the reputation we're getting as a team, what's a bit of Slashtag going to do to our reputation? Not much. It does seem like we're trying to figure out what will happen with our 2 and 3 RHD and Smid, Wideman, Engelland out gives options.

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Old
04-19-2017, 08:17 PM
  #80
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Good right winger, good 4/5 Dman, elite goalie.

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Old
04-19-2017, 11:51 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper0220 View Post
Boston traded Dougie Hamilton to Calgary because of the Oilers GM history, maybe we should go there again.
Well, a true #1- borderline elite goalie is worth plenty more than a #3 defenseman, wouldn't you say?

LOOOL.

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Old
04-20-2017, 12:44 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Mr Positive View Post
It warms my heart to see that they are always blaming the goalies, and depth. Those aren't the problem. They have a pretty great defense at moving the puck and scoring, but not very good at defending. Guys like Vlasic go mostly unheralded in this league but they add a lot of stability, especially against the top opponents in the league 5-on-5.

The Oilers defense was not good enough to do anything until we got Larsson and Russell. Now we can hold onto leads, even a 1 goal lead against a top team. The Flames can't hold onto a lead to save their lives, and it's because of the D.
It really is the goaltending. In part it's just how bad some of the goals allowed have been. Those soft goals are absolutely crushing to a team. Players tighten up because they feel they can't allow a shot on goal.

Look at the two from Elliott tonight. No NHL goalie can give up those goals.

The Flames D is fine (technically they only have 3 right now - Giordano, Hamilton and Brodie).

They need a superstar - which they wont get because the rest of the team is too good to finish in the running for a top pick.

The only other piece they need that they could legitimately acquire is a top line RW.

They're a young team that will likely be even younger next year with guys like Lazar, Jankowski, Andersson and Gillies slotting into the lineup.

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Old
04-20-2017, 12:53 AM
  #83
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As far as defenseman go, Gio is good. But going back to the lockout Carolina and Pittsburgh are the only teams to win without a Hall of Fame caliber defenseman.

Anaheim had two with Pronger and Niedermayer
Detroit had Lidstrom
Boston had Chara
Chicago had Keith
LA had Doughty

Obviously the issue is these guys don't grow on trees.

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Old
04-20-2017, 12:54 AM
  #84
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Gaudreau to me looks like he's regressing and content with the big contract. If that's how he's going to play IMO the Flames aren't going to go anywhere.

Your best player shouldn't be getting outplayed by Kris Versteeg in the playoffs. If it was his first playoffs maybe I give that a pass, but he's been there before.

Gaudreau is supposed to be the franchise player, I think he's well short (literally and figuratively) of a Jarome Iginla in that category.

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Old
04-20-2017, 01:42 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Positive View Post
The Flames can't hold onto a lead to save their lives, and it's because of the D.
Do you just make things up based on how you feel things have played out during the season? The flames literally had the best Win% when leading going into 3rd? 33 - 0 - 1.

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Old
04-20-2017, 01:50 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Gaudreau to me looks like he's regressing and content with the big contract. If that's how he's going to play IMO the Flames aren't going to go anywhere.

Your best player shouldn't be getting outplayed by Kris Versteeg in the playoffs. If it was his first playoffs maybe I give that a pass, but he's been there before.

Gaudreau is supposed to be the franchise player, I think he's well short (literally and figuratively) of a Jarome Iginla in that category.
He's been there once and played very well. I agree he was terrible in this playoffs, but we can't 100% fault him or make an assumption that he's regressing. However honestly I think the Flames should explore trading Gaudreau. He will fetch a huge package or elite player and he's redundant do to his position and handedness.

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Old
04-20-2017, 03:57 AM
  #87
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As much as it pains to be swept in the 1st, this team is still developing and growing. They werent going to challenge for the cup this year... unless some weird fluky scenario went down.

The team trajectory is slowly moving upwards from the moment the blew things up some years ago.

I would much rather have them make the playoffs few times during this development than not make it all. Any games in the post season is good experience.

That said, the obvious things around making moves that people mention are true. Elite goalies dont grow on trees however and I still believe Elliot could be the answer, at least for some time. I would bring him back for 3-4 years tops but Im sure he is looking for more term.

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Old
04-20-2017, 04:09 AM
  #88
Bovinder Horvatji
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Flames just need more time

Quote:
Originally Posted by viper0220 View Post
There is a good chance that the Flames will not get past the Ducks, going forward in your opinion, what are the Flames missing? What do they need to take that next step? Seeing the Flames in the regular season this year and the playoffs this year, what did you like and what did you not like? They got lot's of dead weight coming off, so that will help.

Everyone please don't turn this into a Flames vs Oilers or any other team, if you want to talk about the Oilers or any other team, please open up a new thread. Thank You.*I will put please read the OP, so please read this message.
Flames aren't missing anything other than experience and maturity.

Yes, they got smoked by Anaheim, but Anaheim is in a further stage of development than them. That's it. Flames simply need to continue doing the right things (i.e. drafting well, developing players well, supplementing their current young stars in Monahan, Gaudreau, and Bennett with smart veteran free agent signings).

As a Canucks fan, I should severely dislike Calgary and their fans (especially in light of their ridiculous behaviour and cowardice towards Canucks fans in 2011), but I don't believe that two wrongs make a right.

Instead - I will say this: I believe the Flames are in a similar position to where Vancouver was in the years 2001, 2002, and 2007 (i.e. burgeoning young cores that got smacked by superior opponents, but were trending upwards and simply needed more experience).

I believe that the Flames are well on their way, and that they shouldn't be overly discouraged by this loss (nor should their fans).

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Old
04-20-2017, 04:09 AM
  #89
Honour Over Glory
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This experience is what they were missing to get better but they also need a more proven goalie, Elliott isn't it even though he turned it around after New Years, but consistency was his big problem all year.

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Old
04-20-2017, 04:29 AM
  #90
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They need better bottom-six depth, better defense, and a better goaltender. They should focus on acquiring the goaltender first and foremost.

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04-20-2017, 04:49 AM
  #91
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They need depth and patience. Thatīs all.

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Old
04-20-2017, 05:09 AM
  #92
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Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik
Gaudreau-Monahan-BLANK
Ferland-Bennett-BLANK
BLANK-Stajan-Chiasson
Lazar

Giordano-Hamilton
Brodie-BLANK
Kulak-BLANK

BLANK
BLANK

Probably the skeleton going forward. Need to find a way to get rid of Brouwer and Bouma. Some nice pieces but work going into the summer.


Last edited by Paralyzer008: 04-20-2017 at 05:15 AM.
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Old
04-20-2017, 07:58 AM
  #93
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Better goaltending is the big obvious need. Plus better overall depth, and they also need their core forwards to grow into a slightly better group (probably mostly need Monahan to improve, Gaudreau has shown he can be a top flight winger).

As far as comparing their core forwards to top contending teams, I don't think they're quite there yet. Gaudreau + Monahan + Tkachuk aren't as good as Crosby + Malkin + Kessel, Toews + Kane + Panarin, Getzlaf + Perry + Kesler, Ovechkin + Backstrom + Kuznetsov, etc.

I guess their core forwards are the same level as teams like NYR, Minnesota, St. Louis, etc, but those teams also have some combination of better depth and/or elite goaltending, and still none of them have won a Cup, and all could have arguably used another legit franchise guy up front to make them more competitive.

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Old
04-20-2017, 08:13 AM
  #94
madmike77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paralyzer008 View Post
Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik
Gaudreau-Monahan-BLANK
Ferland-Bennett-BLANK
BLANK-Stajan-Chiasson
Lazar

Giordano-Hamilton
Brodie-BLANK
Kulak-BLANK

BLANK
BLANK

Probably the skeleton going forward. Need to find a way to get rid of Brouwer and Bouma. Some nice pieces but work going into the summer.
They're also stuck with Brouwer. They'll expose him, but LV won't touch him. They also need to make room for Jankowski.

They'll likely try and bring back Stone to play with Brodie. They were decent together. I think Andersson is a surer thing on the bottom pairing than Kulak, but it wouldn't shock me if they were both there.

Gillies may be the backup. I think they'll want to give Parsons as many games as possible in Stockton.

They should be better and younger next year. But I suspect they're going to need to deal a forward or two. They just don't have room for everyone.

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Old
04-20-2017, 08:16 AM
  #95
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A goalie
Fleury or Bishop will bring that experience and calm the youngsters

More depth on the bottom 6 and an 1 offensive player with leadership in the top 6

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Old
04-20-2017, 08:45 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinder Horvatji View Post
Flames aren't missing anything other than experience and maturity.

Yes, they got smoked by Anaheim, but Anaheim is in a further stage of development than them. That's it. Flames simply need to continue doing the right things (i.e. drafting well, developing players well, supplementing their current young stars in Monahan, Gaudreau, and Bennett with smart veteran free agent signings).

As a Canucks fan, I should severely dislike Calgary and their fans (especially in light of their ridiculous behaviour and cowardice towards Canucks fans in 2011), but I don't believe that two wrongs make a right.

Instead - I will say this: I believe the Flames are in a similar position to where Vancouver was in the years 2001, 2002, and 2007 (i.e. burgeoning young cores that got smacked by superior opponents, but were trending upwards and simply needed more experience).

I believe that the Flames are well on their way, and that they shouldn't be overly discouraged by this loss (nor should their fans).


Say what???!!!

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04-20-2017, 08:50 AM
  #97
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Any interest in crawford??? We might not be able to afford him and just go with darling.

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04-20-2017, 08:56 AM
  #98
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A top 6 RW, strong starting goalie, and time.

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Old
04-20-2017, 09:03 AM
  #99
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Honestly I think the biggest problem is depth. To win in the NHL you need 4 lines that can play, and play well. Look at the leafs 4th line right now, some guys who can score, bang bodies, and play well defensively. I think having 4 forward lines that you can roll is huge in the NHL today.

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04-20-2017, 09:05 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
Any interest in crawford??? We might not be able to afford him and just go with darling.
Darling is really underrated, and is cheap so I can see why you guys would. As a crow and Darling fantasy owner (had them the last 2 years and won back to back league titles) I can say that the team he plays for most definitely saves him most of the time. I really like Darling's sv % numbers and such, he's actually really good IMO

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