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Calder Finalists: Laine, Matthews, Werenski

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Old
04-21-2017, 08:29 AM
  #151
WilliamNylander
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This rookie year was crazy.

My top 5:

Matthews

Werenski
Laine
Nylander

Marner

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Old
04-21-2017, 08:45 AM
  #152
HarrisonFord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuhta View Post
Laine with higher PPG and better +/-.

Higher production and better defensive numbers.

Laine for me. I can understand that for a lot NA homers it is Matthews to make a story about Leafs´new coming.
the irony inside of this post is quite interesting.

fun fact:

Laine's 5 on 5 production with Schiefele (537:32): 16g, 11a, 27pts
Laine's 5 on 5 production w/o Schiefele (493:55): 5g, 7a, 12pts

Interesting.... almost like Matthews drives play and produces no matter who his linemates are and Laine can't do that

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Old
04-21-2017, 08:49 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Warden of the North View Post
No surprises there.
No alarms, either.

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Old
04-21-2017, 08:49 AM
  #154
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Matthews, wasnt really close.

Once Laine got moved off Scheifeles line his production dropped. Add all his empty netters and playing a weaker position. Matthews creates his own points, Laine piggybacks.

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Old
04-21-2017, 08:56 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syc View Post
Matthews, wasnt really close.

Once Laine got moved off Scheifeles line his production dropped. Add all his empty netters and playing a weaker position. Matthews creates his own points, Laine piggybacks.
Look, Matthews wins the trophy alright. You don't need to make crap up. Laine has done a great job driving the play on his own this year. You don't need to make stuff up to pump up your boys tires any more.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:03 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by X66 View Post
One of the best parts of the race was when non Matthews fans argued that line mates didn't matter...until laine got split with scheifele and then line mates matter all of a sudden loll
Noone said linemates didnt matter but pointed out that things such as chemistry and team management (how well the team functions) are more important.

It still holds true...better linemates dont automatically equal better production...its chenistry in how well they complement eachothers skills and think the game alike.

Put kucherov and ovi on his wings and its not certain Matthews production goes up for example...highly likely but not guaranteed. Untill proven otherwise.

Also FYI Laine and scheifele has been split up multiple times this season. For example Laine played slightly over 50% of his 5v5 icetime with scheifele.. about the same as Matthews played with nylander.

You seem to enjoy throwing jabs out alot.

You should have mentioned the +/- argument as that was actually hillarious having one Laine fan complitely flip his head on that opinion. Going from its a valuable stat to "its not that important" after Laine had a -3 game haha.

Selective memory at its best only remember the few and crazy or forgetting the context of the time.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:13 AM
  #157
Lempo
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Originally Posted by Narow View Post
You should have mentioned the +/- argument as that was actually hillarious having one Laine fan complitely flip his head on that opinion. Going from its a valuable stat to "its not that important" after Laine had a -3 game haha.
Or shouldn't, being top 3 forward in team in +/- was the one Schedule A bonus category that Laine got but Matthews didn't so I guess the initial thought would apply.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:13 AM
  #158
MastuhNinks
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It's pretty incredible that Murray, Nylander, Marner, Tkachuk, Aho, Skjei, Zaitsev, Provorov don't even stand a chance at getting significant votes for this award. Those last 5 probably won't get a single vote where most years a guy like Tkachuk is likely a finalist.

18 30-point rookies this year
13 in 2015/16
12 in 2014/15
11 in 2013/14
2 in 2012/13*
9 in 2011/12
15 in 2010/11
8 in 2009/10
13 in 2008/09
11 in 2007/08

So really in the past 10 years only one year has had comparable depth to this year's rookie class is 2010/11 and when you look at top-end scoring, Jeff Skinner was the lone 60+ point scorer with 63 points while Matthews, Laine, Marner and Nylander had 69, 64, 61 and 61 respectively. You have to go back to the inflated scoring levels of 2005/06-2006/07 to find a rookie class as prolific as this one. Confirms what we likely all already believed, that this is the best rookie class since Crosby and Ovechkin came into the league.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:14 AM
  #159
Narow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrisonFord View Post
the irony inside of this post is quite interesting.

fun fact:

Laine's 5 on 5 production with Schiefele (537:32): 16g, 11a, 27pts
Laine's 5 on 5 production w/o Schiefele (493:55): 5g, 7a, 12pts

Interesting.... almost like Matthews drives play and produces no matter who his linemates are and Laine can't do that
Feel free to look up scheifeles stats with and without laine as well

~85% of Laines goals are scored with scheifele on the ice. And they played about ~55% so that is impressive how well they produce together.

But it goes both ways.

~65-70% of Scheifeles total production is made with Laine but it is only in ~45% of scheifele total 5v5 icetime

Scheifeles production has been better than Laines away from eachother but it was not for large parts of the season. But Laine is still his most effective teammate despite not his most common one.

Pretty interesting effect from a rookie on a top centerman

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:16 AM
  #160
Narow
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
Matthews, wasnt really close.

Once Laine got moved off Scheifeles line his production dropped. Add all his empty netters and playing a weaker position. Matthews creates his own points, Laine piggybacks.
Yes laine piggyback..lmfao

Atleast dont make stuff up please?

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:19 AM
  #161
MastuhNinks
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Guys, it's over, Laine isn't going to win the Calder. I don't know why this debate is still so heated.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:22 AM
  #162
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Why is this even a discussion anymore? Good race, good rookie year, but Matthews wins due to 40g, 200ft game, playoffs, etc. Very good race, hope its as exciting next year

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:22 AM
  #163
Narow
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Guys, it's over, Laine isn't going to win the Calder. I don't know why this debate is still so heated.
Matty is winning it deservebly so. But people talk trash about stuff that isent true trying to belittle a rookie here fir unknown reasons (feeling threatened?)

And its same old too. People just spew out the same lies

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:22 AM
  #164
Lahey
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
Guys, it's over, Laine isn't going to win the Calder. I don't know why this debate is still so heated.
Yeah I really don't understand why this is even a question anymore.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:22 AM
  #165
Lempo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
It's pretty incredible that Murray, Nylander, Marner, Tkachuk, Aho, Skjei, Zaitsev, Provorov don't even stand a chance at getting significant votes for this award. Those last 5 probably won't get a single vote where most years a guy like Tkachuk is likely a finalist.

18 30-point rookies this year
13 in 2015/16
12 in 2014/15
11 in 2013/14
2 in 2012/13*
9 in 2011/12
15 in 2010/11
8 in 2009/10
13 in 2008/09
11 in 2007/08

So really in the past 10 years only one year has had comparable depth to this year's rookie class is 2010/11 and when you look at top-end scoring, Jeff Skinner was the lone 60+ point scorer with 63 points while Matthews, Laine, Marner and Nylander had 69, 64, 61 and 61 respectively. You have to go back to the inflated scoring levels of 2005/06-2006/07 to find a rookie class as prolific as this one. Confirms what we likely all already believed, that this is the best rookie class since Crosby and Ovechkin came into the league.
It's also fun if you go and look how high the top ~10 or so of the rookies scored in their team rankings. Plenty of guys stepped right in to be some of the most effective guys in their respective teams.

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Old
04-21-2017, 09:26 AM
  #166
Lahey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuhta View Post
Laine with higher PPG and better +/-.

Higher production and better defensive numbers.

Laine for me. I can understand that for a lot NA homers it is Matthews to make a story about Leafs´new coming.
This is gold. I'm saving this post. Pull your head out of the ground man

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:11 AM
  #167
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What a great year for rookies. Wow.

Matthews will win this and deservedly so. That doesn't make Laine, Werenski, or any of the other rookies trash though, I think a lot of these guys are close.

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Old
04-21-2017, 10:59 AM
  #168
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Im glad the race was tight, and the fact that Matthews will likely win is encouraging when considering the calibre of his competition.

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:01 AM
  #169
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Originally Posted by The Podium View Post
Im glad the race was tight, and the fact that Matthews will likely win is encouraging when considering the calibre of his competition.
See guys, this is how you tell you're happy about your player doing well AND don't act like an ass. Certain regulars in Calder threads could take example from you.

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:04 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
It's pretty incredible that Murray, Nylander, Marner, Tkachuk, Aho, Skjei, Zaitsev, Provorov don't even stand a chance at getting significant votes for this award. Those last 5 probably won't get a single vote where most years a guy like Tkachuk is likely a finalist.

18 30-point rookies this year
13 in 2015/16
12 in 2014/15
11 in 2013/14
2 in 2012/13*
9 in 2011/12
15 in 2010/11
8 in 2009/10
13 in 2008/09
11 in 2007/08

So really in the past 10 years only one year has had comparable depth to this year's rookie class is 2010/11 and when you look at top-end scoring, Jeff Skinner was the lone 60+ point scorer with 63 points while Matthews, Laine, Marner and Nylander had 69, 64, 61 and 61 respectively. You have to go back to the inflated scoring levels of 2005/06-2006/07 to find a rookie class as prolific as this one. Confirms what we likely all already believed, that this is the best rookie class since Crosby and Ovechkin came into the league.
Pretty much this... such a good rookie class, and as you've said... any of the guys you've listed, might have been top three nominees in some other years. The last few years sure have brought some special players into the league, and this year is exceptional. To be top three in this year is an honour, and all three nominees are great players, and have had great seasons. That they don't win, is no knock on those players.

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:05 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
production is nearly a wash between Laine and Matthews.

Leafs clinching a playoff spot and bettering their previous season by 26 points is the difference in this one.

Laine saw his team improve by 9 points, but came up just a little shy of the post season.
Don't really like the team comparison

An 18 year old rookie and a 19 year old rookie are at different stages of development
Whether one is more ready than the other doesn't matter
McDavid's expectations from his first year as a 18 year told rookie is different than his 2nd and 19 year old season

To expect Laine to be the difference maker for a playoff push is a little much
Which goes with Matthews as well
The difference maker tho is Matthews was a little more developed and a little more polished to take more leader role on a 3rd line
And Laine played on the top line
Where as Maurice dealt with injuries and just an old hockey system
Despite the team not making it to the playoffs the Jets still managed to be in the top 10 of scoring, Laine remained din top 10 of scoring goals all season and was even in top 20 for points at some point in the season

Team success is just not fair
Especially in a team sport like hockey

With that said it's going to be considered that the Leafs did make it to the playoffs
And Matthews 40 goals definitely helped, but I doubt 4 more goals for Laine would've taken the Jets to the playoffs

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:13 AM
  #172
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Matthews will (and should) win - he played better than Laine did over the course of the entire season.

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:29 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
Don't really like the team comparison

An 18 year old rookie and a 19 year old rookie are at different stages of development
Whether one is more ready than the other doesn't matter
McDavid's expectations from his first year as a 18 year told rookie is different than his 2nd and 19 year old season

To expect Laine to be the difference maker for a playoff push is a little much
Which goes with Matthews as well
The difference maker tho is Matthews was a little more developed and a little more polished to take more leader role on a 3rd line
And Laine played on the top line
Where as Maurice dealt with injuries and just an old hockey system
Despite the team not making it to the playoffs the Jets still managed to be in the top 10 of scoring, Laine remained din top 10 of scoring goals all season and was even in top 20 for points at some point in the season

Team success is just not fair
Especially in a team sport like hockey

With that said it's going to be considered that the Leafs did make it to the playoffs
And Matthews 40 goals definitely helped, but I doubt 4 more goals for Laine would've taken the Jets to the playoffs
Age difference in top 5 draft picks has been proven to have no baring on current or future success. It's irrelevant in prospects of that quality. This has been said again and again. Let's move on from the 8 month difference between these players. It's silly.

As to your other point, it's not just that Matthews got 40 goals, it's that he was the top scoring player on the entire team. He lead in goals and points by a wide margin. He did this with rookie wingers and playing a very responsible two-way game. Safe to say he was the most instrumental skater in our playoff run.

Laine had a good year, but he was third in points on a team that started well ahead of the Leafs on most pre-season projections. He got to play with Scheifele for most of the year, a guy who will probably be entering the conversation as a top 5 center in the league shortly.

No, it's not fair to ask Laine to carry a team to the playoffs. That's the difference between a franchise center and an elite winger. That's why we discuss center being a premium position. You have to carry a line rather than be a passenger on it (let alone a line with Zach Hyman on it).

Matthews numbers are even more incredible with this context in mind. That's why many said Laine would have been hard pressed to take this award even if he outscored Matthews by a fairly significant margin... And Matthews outscored him!

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:40 AM
  #174
TheBigThree
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
Don't really like the team comparison

An 18 year old rookie and a 19 year old rookie are at different stages of development
Whether one is more ready than the other doesn't matter
McDavid's expectations from his first year as a 18 year told rookie is different than his 2nd and 19 year old season

To expect Laine to be the difference maker for a playoff push is a little much
Which goes with Matthews as well
The difference maker tho is Matthews was a little more developed and a little more polished to take more leader role on a 3rd line
And Laine played on the top line
Where as Maurice dealt with injuries and just an old hockey system
Despite the team not making it to the playoffs the Jets still managed to be in the top 10 of scoring, Laine remained din top 10 of scoring goals all season and was even in top 20 for points at some point in the season

Team success is just not fair
Especially in a team sport like hockey

With that said it's going to be considered that the Leafs did make it to the playoffs
And Matthews 40 goals definitely helped, but I doubt 4 more goals for Laine would've taken the Jets to the playoffs
Don't forget matthews is only 7 months older, seems stupid people keep mentioning the age gap but it's not that different. Same thing with ppg differential. Laine PPG is only 0.04 better for reg season.

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Old
04-21-2017, 11:44 AM
  #175
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Matthews production down the stretch was the killer. Last 13 GP 9G 5A to help propel the team into the playoffs. The ppg/goals per game difference is so marginal (i think it translates to an extra 2-3 points for Laine and i believe the goals per game is within 0.005). Matthews all around game, corsi, GWG and actually meaningful production > 0.03 difference in ppg

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