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Habs Off-Season Discussion - Part III

View Poll Results: What does MB do to improve the C position?
Statu quo (Danault as 1C, Galchenyuk at wing or 2C) 27 20.00%
Galchenyuk as 1C, Danault as 2C 25 18.52%
Trades or signs for a 1C 48 35.56%
Trades or signs for a 2C 35 25.93%
Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-06-2017, 10:57 PM
  #51
Roke
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I keep trying to see a way for the team to fill the holes and be anything more than a team that rides goaltending to win a round or two in the playoffs but I'm just not seeing it. With Plekanec having fallen down the elevator shaft and Danault not a top-6 centre in my book the team needs at least one even if the team finally starts using Galchenyuk there.

Hanzal doesn't excite me, I think he's comparable to Plekanec 3 or so years ago and I don't think that puts the team over the top. Thornton would be intriguing (if he even considered Montreal) but he's old and an old guy like that recovering from ACL and MCL tears isn't something you can bank on.

Maybe Bergevin can pull something out of a hat, but he hasn't done it in 5 year and his good major acquisitions (Petry and Radulov) haven't been of the miracle type that the team needs to contend now.

A comprehensive teardown and tanking for 3 seasons looks a lot more compelling. Weber still has his Man Mountain reputation so there should be value there, the team can take on bad contracts that have up to 3 or maybe 4 years left, guys like Price and Pacioretty get a little bit more valuable as trade chips if you retain salary on them. As long as you keep guys like Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, and even Petry (if you can't swap him for a comparable younger guy a team might have soured on) you can come out the other side okay. Just needs some awful goaltending to offset keeping a number of good skaters.

It might not work. you might get awful luck from the lottery for 3 years or player development doesn't work out but I think it gives you a better shot at Cup contention than the status quo.

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05-06-2017, 10:58 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
Yeah sure! In 5 years no one told him to not puck watch when the play is in his zone...
Exactly. He's been on the wing for offence for the majority of those 5 years NOT learning how to play centre.

Are you for real?

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05-06-2017, 11:55 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Roke View Post
I keep trying to see a way for the team to fill the holes and be anything more than a team that rides goaltending to win a round or two in the playoffs but I'm just not seeing it. With Plekanec having fallen down the elevator shaft and Danault not a top-6 centre in my book the team needs at least one even if the team finally starts using Galchenyuk there.

Hanzal doesn't excite me, I think he's comparable to Plekanec 3 or so years ago and I don't think that puts the team over the top. Thornton would be intriguing (if he even considered Montreal) but he's old and an old guy like that recovering from ACL and MCL tears isn't something you can bank on.

Maybe Bergevin can pull something out of a hat, but he hasn't done it in 5 year and his good major acquisitions (Petry and Radulov) haven't been of the miracle type that the team needs to contend now.

A comprehensive teardown and tanking for 3 seasons looks a lot more compelling. Weber still has his Man Mountain reputation so there should be value there, the team can take on bad contracts that have up to 3 or maybe 4 years left, guys like Price and Pacioretty get a little bit more valuable as trade chips if you retain salary on them. As long as you keep guys like Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, and even Petry (if you can't swap him for a comparable younger guy a team might have soured on) you can come out the other side okay. Just needs some awful goaltending to offset keeping a number of good skaters.

It might not work. you might get awful luck from the lottery for 3 years or player development doesn't work out but I think it gives you a better shot at Cup contention than the status quo.
The more I look into it the more I believe Habs should start a rebuild process. The whole organization is just in bad shape.
Sure, we have some good pieces here or there but not nearly close to a cup contention one.
Our prospect group is rather unappealing. Serg is our best one and even he isn't that much interesting. He's good, but not good enough yet to be the main piece of a trade imo.
On our team..holes on the wing, at center and on D.
I just don't see the point in even trying really. I have zero confidence this group can lead to a cup.

I mean, if we extend Radu, and trade for a guy like Tavares without losing any top 6 roster players, then fine, but I don't see this happening at all.

So I think we should sell now, at highest value, and do proper rebuild.
But the management group needs to gtfo.

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05-07-2017, 12:03 AM
  #54
habtastic
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As radical and paradoxically as simple as this may seem, I think Chucky would do well to train with a team of neuroscientists, particularly with neurofeedback modalities for both spatial awareness and cognitive processing.

That said, I don't think that the problems he displayed post-injury are embedded. In fact, it supports my hypothesis that coming back from the injury, particularly in his case, all the training he did in summer was negated, and a lot of that training was training certain brain circuits. His muscle memory is already very good for certain gestures. If he blends in some improvisations, which he's shown in the past, he'd be deadly.

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05-07-2017, 12:22 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
As radical and paradoxically as simple as this may seem, I think Chucky would do well to train with a team of neuroscientists, particularly with neurofeedback modalities for both spatial awareness and cognitive processing.

That said, I don't think that the problems he displayed post-injury are embedded. In fact, it supports my hypothesis that coming back from the injury, particularly in his case, all the training he did in summer was negated, and a lot of that training was training certain brain circuits. His muscle memory is already very good for certain gestures. If he blends in some improvisations, which he's shown in the past, he'd be deadly.
We have the technology. We can rebuild him. Bigger, better, faster stronger.

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05-07-2017, 01:05 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SquiddFX View Post
We have the technology. We can rebuild him. Bigger, better, faster stronger.
Indeed.

Seriously though, it exists. It's what I study. Some of it you can order on Amazon, while the more complex aspects of it are in the lab. It's what I'm working on, and I can't see players not using it 5 years from now or sooner.

I was surprised to see an Instagram pic of Mike Condon using "Swivel Goggles".(https://www.instagram.com/p/BTpao-3h...ondibear&hl=en)

That's a low-bio approach to retraining motor-visual circuits, and tbh I don't really believe it works that well. The high-bio approach would be to train certain circuits specific to specific actions, even analysis of plays. Basically, it's the 21st century (or 2k20+) version of looking at tape. I bet MT would love to get his hands on that so he could torture Subban.

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05-07-2017, 01:08 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
As radical and paradoxically as simple as this may seem, I think Chucky would do well to train with a team of neuroscientists, particularly with neurofeedback modalities for both spatial awareness and cognitive processing.

That said, I don't think that the problems he displayed post-injury are embedded. In fact, it supports my hypothesis that coming back from the injury, particularly in his case, all the training he did in summer was negated, and a lot of that training was training certain brain circuits. His muscle memory is already very good for certain gestures. If he blends in some improvisations, which he's shown in the past, he'd be deadly.
This only works if he learns how to skate like a pro.

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05-07-2017, 01:12 AM
  #58
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This only works if he learns how to skate like a pro.
A) That can be trained vis--vis neurofeedback

B) I don't think he's as bad as everyone says. Certainly he finished the season leaving people wanting more from a non-3-on-3 situation, but I think if he gets the rest of his game to where it used to be, his skating is just fine.

I also think he could probably add another 10 lbs of muscle. He still seems pretty lean to me. Not that this would help skating, but it might not affect it negatively either.

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05-07-2017, 01:18 AM
  #59
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Galchenyuk will be a center. They're just putting pressure off.
Can't believe people actually think this is still a possibility after seeing him play this season.

It wouldn't be a stretch to say that Galchenyuk is one of the worst defensive players in the league, you don't put that type of player at center. Stylistically he's not a good fit to be a center either.

We need a 1C, there's no hiding that. The only assets that can get you close to a 1C (only one's that make sense trading) are Galchenyuk and Sergachev (with adds depending on the player). Personally i'm not a fan of Galchenyuk so i'd move him and keep Sergachev. We also have a hole at LD which hopefully Sergachev can fill.

If we can't get a legit 1C i hope we can get a Trocheck type center at the very least, although i don't see why Florida would trade him. He's an extremely underrated player.


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05-07-2017, 01:34 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
A) That can be trained vis--vis neurofeedback

B) I don't think he's as bad as everyone says. Certainly he finished the season leaving people wanting more from a non-3-on-3 situation, but I think if he gets the rest of his game to where it used to be, his skating is just fine.

I also think he could probably add another 10 lbs of muscle. He still seems pretty lean to me. Not that this would help skating, but it might not affect it negatively either.
1. Ok. Well I hope he's getting these neuro therapy sessions already, summer goes by quick.

2. I think he is as bad of a skater as ppl say he is, especially for a 1c. He skates like he's on mud relatively speaking to the avg 1C. He doesn't have the hockey sense to compensate...unless he can get the aforementioned brain rehab thing figured out.

3. He will never be a 1C for a cup contending team. We need to accept this reality, and ship him to team with a true 1C to turn him into the only thing he's capable of becoming...a 30 goal scoring winger. His biggest potential relies on his greatest asset...his shot.

4. I don't have any issues with giving him a chance as a 2C provided we miraculousaly land a true 1C. But I would also test him out on wing if we get lucky and land a legit top C.

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05-07-2017, 01:34 AM
  #61
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Would it surprise anyone if MB goes after another Briere type washed up player citing his past playoff success.

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1. Ok. Well I hope he's getting these neuro therapy sessions already, summer goes by quick.

2. I think he is as bad of a skater as ppl say he is, especially for a 1c. He skates like he's on mud relatively speaking to the avg 1C. He doesn't have the hockey sense to compensate...unless he can get the aforementioned brain rehab thing figured out.

3. He will never be a 1C for a cup contending team. We need to accept this reality, and ship him to team with a true 1C to turn him into the only thing he's capable of becoming...a 30 goal scoring winger. His biggest potential relies on his greatest asset...his shot.

4. I don't have any issues with giving him a chance as a 2C provided we miraculousaly land a true 1C. But I would also test him out on wing if we get lucky and land a legit top C.
Habs arent cup contenders and havent developed/acquired a true top 6 C since Plekanec. There's literally no choice but to make an effort to develop him as C.

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05-07-2017, 01:47 AM
  #62
coolasprICE
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Would it surprise anyone if MB goes after another Briere type washed up player citing his past playoff success.
Look, it's a simple answer to an obvious question. There is 100% chance that MB will sign any francophone forward, who is above the age of 34, and that at least checks off one of the following:

-2 season of 20 goals or more, with at least one season from 2011 and up

-or 4 seasons of 15 or more with at least one season from 2013 and up

-or at least 1 game winning goal in a sc finals at any point


If this player qualifies for all 3, expect a 3 year deal.

For 2 of 3, expect 2 year

If player has only 1 of 3 above, 1 year deal.

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05-07-2017, 01:54 AM
  #63
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Habs arent cup contenders and havent developed/acquired a true top 6 C since Plekanec. There's literally no choice but to make an effort to develop him as C.
This sounds like a plan. If it fails like I think it would, we can tank. I just think a wise move would be to ship him unless we land a top C, which will never happen without losing some of our core.

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05-07-2017, 02:35 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
1. Ok. Well I hope he's getting these neuro therapy sessions already, summer goes by quick.

2. I think he is as bad of a skater as ppl say he is, especially for a 1c. He skates like he's on mud relatively speaking to the avg 1C. He doesn't have the hockey sense to compensate...unless he can get the aforementioned brain rehab thing figured out.

3. He will never be a 1C for a cup contending team. We need to accept this reality, and ship him to team with a true 1C to turn him into the only thing he's capable of becoming...a 30 goal scoring winger. His biggest potential relies on his greatest asset...his shot.

4. I don't have any issues with giving him a chance as a 2C provided we miraculousaly land a true 1C. But I would also test him out on wing if we get lucky and land a legit top C.
Respectfully disagree. He's sure af not there now, but in terms of players turning a corner, I absolutely think Chucky can be elite. He's underperforming significantly, and not due to insurmountable qualities.

So if we take shot, and deking out of it, (his deking, a function of anticipation, which can still be improved based on repetitions and exposure; he still has the native capacity to maneuver a puck effortlessly), the other #1Cs are either really tough, and can also pot garbage goals OR are really talented because of their skating ability (lower body strength and/or edge and stride control). Are these things he has currently? I've seen flashes of it. Does he need to improve? Yes. Can he do it? IMO absolutely.

I'm a firm believer in conditioning and practice. You can change simply your musculature to an astounding degree if you dedicate yourself to it in very short order. That's basic. Beyond that, with skating, there are dynamic components. Proprioception, fast-twitch fibers, vestibulo-ocular-relfex, etc. This of course applies to everyone. So, I'm saying that the delta between where Chucky is now, and where he would be a #1C, is small enough for a good physical (and mental -- not totally separate as alluded to previously) mentor to close the gap relatively quickly.

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05-07-2017, 02:53 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Galchenyuk will be a center. They're just putting pressure off.
Funny how you've been saying this for 5 years.
What a terrible development we've put Galch through.

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05-07-2017, 08:55 AM
  #66
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Respectfully disagree. He's sure af not there now, but in terms of players turning a corner, I absolutely think Chucky can be elite. He's underperforming significantly, and not due to insurmountable qualities.

So if we take shot, and deking out of it, (his deking, a function of anticipation, which can still be improved based on repetitions and exposure; he still has the native capacity to maneuver a puck effortlessly), the other #1Cs are either really tough, and can also pot garbage goals OR are really talented because of their skating ability (lower body strength and/or edge and stride control). Are these things he has currently? I've seen flashes of it. Does he need to improve? Yes. Can he do it? IMO absolutely.

I'm a firm believer in conditioning and practice. You can change simply your musculature to an astounding degree if you dedicate yourself to it in very short order. That's basic. Beyond that, with skating, there are dynamic components. Proprioception, fast-twitch fibers, vestibulo-ocular-relfex, etc. This of course applies to everyone. So, I'm saying that the delta between where Chucky is now, and where he would be a #1C, is small enough for a good physical (and mental -- not totally separate as alluded to previously) mentor to close the gap relatively quickly.
I get it man. You're involved in this new science and a believer that he is a prime candidate to benefit from it.

With that said, I think it's outrageous to think that he's going to be a 1C for a contender in our lifetime. O hope I'm wrong.

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05-07-2017, 12:46 PM
  #67
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The more I look into it the more I believe Habs should start a rebuild process. The whole organization is just in bad shape.
Sure, we have some good pieces here or there but not nearly close to a cup contention one.
Our prospect group is rather unappealing. Serg is our best one and even he isn't that much interesting. He's good, but not good enough yet to be the main piece of a trade imo.
On our team..holes on the wing, at center and on D.
I just don't see the point in even trying really. I have zero confidence this group can lead to a cup.

I mean, if we extend Radu, and trade for a guy like Tavares without losing any top 6 roster players, then fine, but I don't see this happening at all.

So I think we should sell now, at highest value, and do proper rebuild.
But the management group needs to gtfo.
There were a couple of junctures during the last 5 years where they could have gone for a rebuild or a major retooling.

One was when Bergevin was named.

Another was when the team cratered two years ago and missed the playoffs. There was a window, before they moved the younger Subban for the older Weber.

Now that Radulov is not likely to re-sign and they are in the position of re-signing Price, I don't see how they can possibly rebuild. Price is not going to agree to a sign a long-term deal with a team that would jettison all or most of its veteran assets to give way to a rebuild. I think they're locked into a course. They can't do a Trana-type move and nor will they retool if it compromises their ability to win. They're looking to sell their luxury boxes -- rebuilding is not going to cut it.

When Molson hired Bergevin, he gave him a short term win-now mandate, which was then incompatible with a rebuild. Nothing's changed and nothing will, so long as Molson is calling the shots. Bergevin's stated mantra of "build through the draft" was just a convenient smokescreen for the average fan to buy into a long-term future. This organization works on the now. Which is why it keeps looking for shortcuts, free agents without compensation, undervalued players on the wire, etc.

Molson is the problem. He extended Bergevin for what exactly? What has Bergevin done to deserve a longer term deal than Stan Bowman? With Bergevin, it's more about what he hasn't done and won't do. Start with objectively evaluating all of those who are close to him and who are handling key responsibilities. Five years and only one of them was let go and it was all due to the team cratering after he had given the chain-smoker a full vote of confidence only a few months earlier.

What will it take for Bergevin to replace the rest of the deadwood? More importantly, what will it take for Molson to change the direction this club is taking? Where is the dream team of Lemaire, Lamoriello, Shanahan and Babcock? Most of those could have been part of the Habs staff, had Molson tried. Instead of that, we get to watch Trana ice young elite players being carefully brought along by masterful decision-makers, not improvising bumblers like we have in Montreal.

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05-07-2017, 03:37 PM
  #68
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I keep trying to see a way for the team to fill the holes and be anything more than a team that rides goaltending to win a round or two in the playoffs but I'm just not seeing it. With Plekanec having fallen down the elevator shaft and Danault not a top-6 centre in my book the team needs at least one even if the team finally starts using Galchenyuk there.

Hanzal doesn't excite me, I think he's comparable to Plekanec 3 or so years ago and I don't think that puts the team over the top. Thornton would be intriguing (if he even considered Montreal) but he's old and an old guy like that recovering from ACL and MCL tears isn't something you can bank on.

Maybe Bergevin can pull something out of a hat, but he hasn't done it in 5 year and his good major acquisitions (Petry and Radulov) haven't been of the miracle type that the team needs to contend now.

A comprehensive teardown and tanking for 3 seasons looks a lot more compelling. Weber still has his Man Mountain reputation so there should be value there, the team can take on bad contracts that have up to 3 or maybe 4 years left, guys like Price and Pacioretty get a little bit more valuable as trade chips if you retain salary on them. As long as you keep guys like Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, and even Petry (if you can't swap him for a comparable younger guy a team might have soured on) you can come out the other side okay. Just needs some awful goaltending to offset keeping a number of good skaters.

It might not work. you might get awful luck from the lottery for 3 years or player development doesn't work out but I think it gives you a better shot at Cup contention than the status quo.
The problem is unless you get very lucky and get a generational player it will take much longer then 3 years to rebuild if you do a comprehensive tear down.

The value you get in terms of prospects for Price/Weber/Pacioretty isn't that great because teams with high picks/great prospects are also in a rebuild so don't have much interest in those players. You have to hope to find a team stuck in rebuild who is desperate to get out. Finding 3 such teams is very unlikely.

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05-07-2017, 03:51 PM
  #69
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The problem is unless you get very lucky and get a generational player it will take much longer then 3 years to rebuild if you do a comprehensive tear down.

The value you get in terms of prospects for Price/Weber/Pacioretty isn't that great because teams with high picks/great prospects are also in a rebuild so don't have much interest in those players. You have to hope to find a team stuck in rebuild who is desperate to get out. Finding 3 such teams is very unlikely.
After flailing around in mediocrity for years the Leafs more or less did their rebuild in 3 by getting medicore goaltending and some lucky bad shooting luck in 2015-16. They got lucky with the Matthews lottery, but if they drafted 3rd or 4th last year instead of drafting Matthews they'd be well on their way up. By keeping good contributors like Gardiner, Kadri, and Van Riemsdyk the climb back wasn't too steep like it has been for Buffalo and Colorado.

Do that, but with intentionally worse goaltending for 3 or 4 years while you're tanking, and you just have to find a decent goalie to switch to being on your way up again.

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05-07-2017, 05:05 PM
  #70
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Habs need a rebuild, the status quo will only bring in more average seasons. To get a #1C you need assets to trade and the prospect pool is depleted. Time to trade Price/Pacioretty/Weber combo for young players and draft picks. A full house cleaning from top to bottom is in order as well.

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05-07-2017, 07:07 PM
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The problem is unless you get very lucky and get a generational player it will take much longer then 3 years to rebuild if you do a comprehensive tear down.

The value you get in terms of prospects for Price/Weber/Pacioretty isn't that great because teams with high picks/great prospects are also in a rebuild so don't have much interest in those players. You have to hope to find a team stuck in rebuild who is desperate to get out. Finding 3 such teams is very unlikely.
Completely agree. We're as overly-optimistic about rebuilding as we are about draft picks and prospects. Nothing is as easy, fast, or good as we imagine. Two or three lottery picks would, if we were lucky, replace the core players we traded away, but then we'd still need managerial skill to finish the job via trade and UFA.

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Habs need a rebuild, the status quo will only bring in more average seasons. To get a #1C you need assets to trade and the prospect pool is depleted. Time to trade Price/Pacioretty/Weber combo for young players and draft picks. A full house cleaning from top to bottom is in order as well.
If our core players pass their prime and/or don't re-sign, a rebuild becomes inevitable. But until then, why not go for it? Any team whose core carries them near the top of the league is close enough to become a contender, provided they do what's necessary to finish the job. We have enough assets to swing a deal. The only catch is it'll require sacrificing a good roster player and/or our best prospect.

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05-07-2017, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by habsterr View Post
Habs need a rebuild, the status quo will only bring in more average seasons. To get a #1C you need assets to trade and the prospect pool is depleted. Time to trade Price/Pacioretty/Weber combo for young players and draft picks. A full house cleaning from top to bottom is in order as well.
with Price and Weber, you've got two of the key pieces needed to content...

we've got the organizational ability to cap spend and use minors to bury salary...

no reason that a competent GM couldn't take the pieces we have and re-tool the group into a contender over next 1-3 seasons.

problem is that we don't have a competent GM, so really doesn't matter wether we rebuild, retool, or go status quo... until we fix that problem, any direction we take will likely not be successful.


worst case would be for the team to go full board rebuild... trading away Price/Weber/Patches et... with Bergevin leading the decision-making. That could be catastrophic and set us back for a significant period of time.

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05-07-2017, 08:44 PM
  #73
habsterr
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post

If our core players pass their prime and/or don't re-sign, a rebuild becomes inevitable. But until then, why not go for it? Any team whose core carries them near the top of the league is close enough to become a contender, provided they do what's necessary to finish the job. We have enough assets to swing a deal. The only catch is it'll require sacrificing a good roster player and/or our best prospect.
The GM isn't competent enough to do the right moves and this team is not built for the playoffs. Time and time again the habs will get spanked in the playoffs instead of doing a proper rebuild will just waste more time of the inevitable. Simply put the core is flawed, the cost to fix it are huge, no competent GM.

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05-07-2017, 09:12 PM
  #74
Frozenice
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
The problem is unless you get very lucky and get a generational player it will take much longer then 3 years to rebuild if you do a comprehensive tear down.

The value you get in terms of prospects for Price/Weber/Pacioretty isn't that great because teams with high picks/great prospects are also in a rebuild so don't have much interest in those players. You have to hope to find a team stuck in rebuild who is desperate to get out. Finding 3 such teams is very unlikely.
If you get 3 years of low draft picks + the 1st rounders you acquire in trade that should be the end of the rebuild. Of course, if your team isn't very good, especially on defense and in goal (get a good goalie like Toronto did at the end of the rebuild) it may take longer to climb out of the cellar. It's almost like you should have your defensive prospects positions filled for the most part before doing the tank, like Chicago did and then draft a couple of elite forwards like Kane and Toews. Even Calgary was like that, they drafted Monahan and Bennett.

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05-07-2017, 09:58 PM
  #75
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Before a rebuild will be successful, the management has to change and MB definitely has to go before a rebuild will be successful.

Toronto is looking successful on a quick rebuild but don't forget they threw a ton of money at getting the best management, coaches, trainers, plus improved their scouting, drafting, development, and AHL programs. It cost them a lot to set that up.

The question is: Will Molson do that? Will he open his wallet for that kind of spending?

If not, a rebuild will be a lot, lot slower. We could end up with an Edmonton, Calgary, or Buffalo type rebuild that took a long time.

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