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Greatest Forwards of All Time #6

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest forward of all time? #6
Bobby Hull 17 28.81%
Guy LaFleur 5 8.47%
Phil Esposito 5 8.47%
Stan Mikita 2 3.39%
Mark Messier 16 27.12%
Howie Morenz 3 5.08%
Mike Bossy 6 10.17%
Bobby Clarke 0 0%
Jaromir Jagr 3 5.08%
Steve Yzerman 2 3.39%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-18-2006, 03:16 PM
  #1
canucksfan
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Greatest Forwards of All Time #6

Jean Beliveau won with 23 votes. Steve Yzerman will be added next. Remember to say who you want to be added next. This one might be close. I voted for Bobby Hull and add Trottier.

#1 Gretzky(64.71%)
#2 Lemieux(63.77%)
#3 Howe(63.41%)
#4 Richard(31.58%)
#5 Beliveau(53.49%)

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Old
02-18-2006, 03:39 PM
  #2
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6 straight 50 or more goal seasons as well as 65 or more assists seasons combined with 4 unbelivable playoff performances and 1000 points in 720 games (a record at the time despte taking 3 years to blossom) as well as 3 art ross, 3 pearson, 2 hart, a conn smythe and 5 stanley cups isn't too shabby. Voted for Guy LaFleur. Add Sakic.

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Old
02-18-2006, 04:09 PM
  #3
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Voted for Messier, add Trotts.

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Old
02-18-2006, 04:35 PM
  #4
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Voted for Hull, add Lindsay

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Old
02-18-2006, 04:45 PM
  #5
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vOTED for mess, add trottier

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Old
02-18-2006, 05:25 PM
  #6
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Messier.


Add Ovechkin.

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Old
02-18-2006, 08:45 PM
  #7
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Voted for the moose for the second time in a row.

Add good 'ole Saskatchewan boy Brian Trottier.

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Old
02-18-2006, 08:59 PM
  #8
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Its amazing a guy like Messier who has scored 50 goals once in his career despite playing in the run and gun 80-s on the best offensive team of all time. Also missed the playoffs in the last 7 years of his career. Phisical play is overrated. Just because you're more phisical then the other guy doesn't mean you're better. I would take Hull, Lafleur and Mikita before the moose.

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02-19-2006, 01:43 AM
  #9
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Voted Jagr, add Neely.

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Old
02-19-2006, 04:17 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Its amazing a guy like Messier who has scored 50 goals once in his career despite playing in the run and gun 80-s on the best offensive team of all time. Also missed the playoffs in the last 7 years of his career. Phisical play is overrated. Just because you're more phisical then the other guy doesn't mean you're better. I would take Hull, Lafleur and Mikita before the moose.

Yeah, even though he missed the playoffs for the 7 years in a row he is still second all time in playoff points.

Voted Messier, add Trotty.

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Old
02-19-2006, 09:30 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Ownz Harper
Yeah, even though he missed the playoffs for the 7 years in a row he is still second all time in playoff points.

Voted Messier, add Trotty.
And Jari Kurri is third. What's your point?

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Old
02-19-2006, 01:03 PM
  #12
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Add Bryan Trottier - the owner of six Stanley Cup rings and the pride and joy of Val Marie, Saskatchewan.

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Old
02-19-2006, 01:52 PM
  #13
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When you look at years played and points and numbers Messier does have alot but his production the last 10 years or so has dropped alot, I love Messier but I think he was one of the overrated players in his time, he has been put on the Greztky/Lemieux plateau which he doesnt belong on. Personally Brett Hull had Great career and I think Hull was a better player than Messier. (im sure im gonna have alot of people pissed at that comment but its just my honest opinion)

With guys like Morenez who was the best player the NHL had seen untill Howe came into the game. But to compare Morenez to guys of today is difficult as well, Especially since so many people just look at stats. But stats is all you can look at when you never got to see certain players play. Personally Messier is a few spots away, but with the players on that list I will take Mikita, although for me it was a toss up with him and Lafleur. Mikita played from 58 to 80 and was consistant his entire career. I think the stint in Winnipeg hurt Hull's chances of being top 10, there are many players more deserving than him.

But either way this list is sacreligious without Marcel Dionne on the list. Personally Dionne is next no doubt about it!

Add Francis and Dionne!

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Old
02-19-2006, 04:56 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stugotz
When you look at years played and points and numbers Messier does have alot but his production the last 10 years or so has dropped alot, I love Messier but I think he was one of the overrated players in his time, he has been put on the Greztky/Lemieux plateau which he doesnt belong on. Personally Brett Hull had Great career and I think Hull was a better player than Messier. (im sure im gonna have alot of people pissed at that comment but its just my honest opinion)

With guys like Morenez who was the best player the NHL had seen untill Howe came into the game. But to compare Morenez to guys of today is difficult as well, Especially since so many people just look at stats. But stats is all you can look at when you never got to see certain players play. Personally Messier is a few spots away, but with the players on that list I will take Mikita, although for me it was a toss up with him and Lafleur. Mikita played from 58 to 80 and was consistant his entire career. I think the stint in Winnipeg hurt Hull's chances of being top 10, there are many players more deserving than him.

But either way this list is sacreligious without Marcel Dionne on the list. Personally Dionne is next no doubt about it!

Add Francis and Dionne!
Agree that Messier is over-rated but don't agree that Bret Hull is better. In my opinion neither one of them belong in a top 10 list. Mind you Messier is currently tied for the lead on this poll with Bobby Hull which is ridiculous. Messier doesn't have the ability to carry Bobby's jock Strap.

Don't understand your logic on Bobby Hull. Why does the stint in Winnipeg make him less deserving. Even if you ignore his WHA years(which you shouldn't), he still was a superstar in the NHL for 15 years scoring 50+goals when 20 was considered good.

Nice to see Mikita get a vote as Stan is very under-rated.

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Old
02-19-2006, 04:59 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stugotz
When you look at years played and points and numbers Messier does have alot but his production the last 10 years or so has dropped alot, I love Messier but I think he was one of the overrated players in his time, he has been put on the Greztky/Lemieux plateau which he doesnt belong on. Personally Brett Hull had Great career and I think Hull was a better player than Messier. (im sure im gonna have alot of people pissed at that comment but its just my honest opinion)

With guys like Morenez who was the best player the NHL had seen untill Howe came into the game. But to compare Morenez to guys of today is difficult as well, Especially since so many people just look at stats. But stats is all you can look at when you never got to see certain players play. Personally Messier is a few spots away, but with the players on that list I will take Mikita, although for me it was a toss up with him and Lafleur. Mikita played from 58 to 80 and was consistant his entire career. I think the stint in Winnipeg hurt Hull's chances of being top 10, there are many players more deserving than him.

But either way this list is sacreligious without Marcel Dionne on the list. Personally Dionne is next no doubt about it!

Add Francis and Dionne!
I wouldn't consider Dionne for a few more spots. Certainly not ahead of Trottier or Ted Lindsay. Simple reason: playoff production. While it's certainly true that Dionne never played on a top five NHL team, he didn't exactly have a reputation for being a clutch player, or elevating his play in the playoffs. He was around 40th in the THN Top 50, when the voting took place in 1997. His playoff record played a big part in that.

One thing to keep in mind with Messier: he played an inordinate amount of hockey, which caused his tail-off in production after the 1995-96 season, when he was a point and an injury away from being the oldest player to score 100 points in a season. (Messier finished second in Hart balloting that year). By the time he was 34, he had won six Cups, made it to the final a seventh time, and went to the conference final on another occasion. Eight trips to at least the conference final, in addition to playing a robust physical style in the NHL since he was 18. It's surprising he was able to remain among the elite for as long as he did.

Also, you can't evaluate Messier on just stats alone. He could dominate a game physically, and was a fantastic leader. (Leadership is a trait that cannot be underestimated).

I wouldn't pick Messier now, in fact, I wouldn't pick him for several more spots. (There's at least one player not on the list who I'd rate ahead of The Moose).

Brett Hull was nowhere near the player that Messier was. Hull was, essentially, a one-dimensional player. It was a heck of a dimension, as he had one of the best shots of all time (and the instincts to match his goal-scoring ability). But Messier was a multi-dimensional force. Hull also had a penchant for disappearing in the playoffs, even though he won two Cups.

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02-19-2006, 05:03 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Its amazing a guy like Messier who has scored 50 goals once in his career despite playing in the run and gun 80-s on the best offensive team of all time. Also missed the playoffs in the last 7 years of his career. Phisical play is overrated. Just because you're more phisical then the other guy doesn't mean you're better. I would take Hull, Lafleur and Mikita before the moose.
I agree. Messier was great but, he tends to be overrated. Bobby Hull, Lafleur, Mikita, Espo, Bossy, Trottier and several others had greater careers than the Moose. And that is coming from an Oilers fan.

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Old
02-19-2006, 05:38 PM
  #17
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voted Messier, add Kharlamov (unless only NHLers, then add Dionne)

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02-19-2006, 07:10 PM
  #18
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I`m taking Howie Morenz; and will likely be doing that the rest of the way through as I doubt he`ll get enough support here to win a round.

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Old
02-20-2006, 03:58 AM
  #19
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I think Messier's overrated too.

Nothing against the guy, he had an outstanding career, including great career numbers and a ton of SC playoff success. However, he was helped tremendously by being on the right team at the right time.

I think there's way too much emphasis on intangibles such as "leadership." Seems to me that leadership means very little if you (and your teammates) can't play good hockey. The best form of leadership IMO is to step up and help score or prevent goals. Many act like a leader gives a "win one for the Gipper" speech between every period, then proceeds to knock a dozen opponents on their arses.

The reason guys like Messier, Bossy, Lafleur, etc. have won so many cups has less to do with "leadership" than talent, hard work, and teamwork. It's that simple IMO. Stick them on Quebec (who got nowhere even with Sakic and Forsberg... and Lafleur before that), or the Red Wings of the 80s (had Yzerman), or a late 90s Pittsburgh (had Jagr) or the Rangers of recent years (who somehow avoided playoffs like the plague, even with Messier's "leadership") and how many cups would they have? It also helps that these dynasties could afford to keep their cores together for several years, which has gotten much more difficult over time.

Messier would have been great in "Braveheart", and he was a great hockey player, but I don't believe he was better than many of those on the current voting list.

In terms of (season-adjusted) peak scoring production, Jagr and Esposito are clearly above the rest statistically. They would also be at or near the top in career scoring, had they played in the same era as Messier, Yzerman, etc.

I'm not saying that leadership is of no value, but I find it to be vastly overrated, and hence I find Messier to be somewhat overrated.

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02-20-2006, 07:10 AM
  #20
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Espo, add Francis.

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02-20-2006, 12:47 PM
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Yeah Messier's well overated. It become obvious when the guy receive more recognition that Hull and Mikita.

Voted Hull. Add Lindsay.

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02-20-2006, 01:02 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Its amazing a guy like Messier who has scored 50 goals once in his career despite playing in the run and gun 80-s on the best offensive team of all time. Also missed the playoffs in the last 7 years of his career. Phisical play is overrated. Just because you're more phisical then the other guy doesn't mean you're better. I would take Hull, Lafleur and Mikita before the moose.
Voted Mess, add Trotts

Mark Messier = Only player to ever captain 2 teams to the Stanley Cup

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Old
02-20-2006, 01:16 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math
Nothing against the guy, he had an outstanding career, including great career numbers and a ton of SC playoff success. However, he was helped tremendously by being on the right team at the right time.

I think there's way too much emphasis on intangibles such as "leadership." Seems to me that leadership means very little if you (and your teammates) can't play good hockey. The best form of leadership IMO is to step up and help score or prevent goals. Many act like a leader gives a "win one for the Gipper" speech between every period, then proceeds to knock a dozen opponents on their arses.

The reason guys like Messier, Bossy, Lafleur, etc. have won so many cups has less to do with "leadership" than talent, hard work, and teamwork. It's that simple IMO. Stick them on Quebec (who got nowhere even with Sakic and Forsberg... and Lafleur before that), or the Red Wings of the 80s (had Yzerman), or a late 90s Pittsburgh (had Jagr) or the Rangers of recent years (who somehow avoided playoffs like the plague, even with Messier's "leadership") and how many cups would they have? It also helps that these dynasties could afford to keep their cores together for several years, which has gotten much more difficult over time.

Messier would have been great in "Braveheart", and he was a great hockey player, but I don't believe he was better than many of those on the current voting list.

In terms of (season-adjusted) peak scoring production, Jagr and Esposito are clearly above the rest statistically. They would also be at or near the top in career scoring, had they played in the same era as Messier, Yzerman, etc.

I'm not saying that leadership is of no value, but I find it to be vastly overrated, and hence I find Messier to be somewhat overrated.
Go ask anyone who has ever won anything in hockey about the value of leadership, and you'll change your tune in a damn hurry. You can never question the importance of quality leadership. You can't underrate the value of leaders. You can have all the skill guys on the planet, but if you don't have that strong leader, you won't go anywhere once the post-season starts.

I'd rate something tangible like leadership over some irrelevant, fantasy-driven statistic like adjusted for era scoring. While there would be a slight adjustment, it's nowhere near as much as you might think it would be.

Name me one team that has won the Stanley Cup in the last 30 years and not had a great leader, whether it be a rah-rah type in the locker room, a take charge type or a guy who could carry his team on his back for extended periods of time. Every Stanley Cup champion in recent memory has had at least one great leader.

The only thing I would agree with is that there are players on this list who merit consideration ahead of Messier: Hull, Esposito, LaFleur, Clarke and Bossy. I'd probably take Morenz, too, (just look at who has voted for Morenz, justsomeguy and reckoning, two of the most insightful posters here), and I'd take Trottier ahead of Messier as well.

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Old
02-20-2006, 03:09 PM
  #24
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No Offence To Mark Messier but...

Bobby Hull = 913 goals in 1474 pro games (Gretzky = 894 goals)

But then again, the recent Messier retirement and exposure cost Hull some votes.

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02-20-2006, 03:46 PM
  #25
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excuse me but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weztex
No Offence To Mark Messier but...

Bobby Hull = 913 goals in 1474 pro games (Gretzky = 894 goals)

But then again, the recent Messier retirement and exposure cost Hull some votes.

Gretzky - 940 goals in 1567 Pro games

if you're not going to count the WHA for Gretz then you can't for Hull either which means dropping 303 goals from Hull's total.

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