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crosby,malkin,kessel-what if...

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Old
02-24-2006, 11:39 AM
  #76
McQuixote
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot
The heart of your implication regarding the draft structure supposes wrong-doing on the part of teams, the theory of tanking seasons to improve draft position.
Yup. Accusations that come up with a fair degree of regularity - it happened with Mario Lemieux, it happened with Daigle (ha, Karma), it happened this year with the Houston Texans, and it wouldn't be surprising to see it happen again this year.

Accusations alone are bad for the sport.



Quote:
I get that it would be different. I don't see where it would be better. Change for change's sake is simply that --- change. It does not address your supposition that teams deliberately tank long-term to improve draft position.
Sure it does. It takes away the significant advantage. In the NBA, the difference between the worst record and the second worst record amounts to 5% - 25% v. 20%. That's not risk/reward enough to "tank" games, and face investigations, scrutiny and player reluctance.

(For the record, the odds of the team that finished just out of the playoffs getting that first overall pick? 0.5%, or about once every 200 years).

In an NBA style draft lottery, the worst teams in the league still have opportunity to improve themselves through the draft via early drafting positions - and the worst record in the league is assured no worse than fourth. Which, as I'm sure you know, leaves plenty of luminaries in each and every draft. It's just a buffer against throwing games and a recognition that all of the league's worst teams are in varying degrees of need of a chance at the top pick.

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Old
02-24-2006, 11:51 AM
  #77
Pens1566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO
You canít possibly be that blind can you? So your saying that no one on the Pens board has said x player will be a top pairing Dman? You disappoint me Fredo.
Try searching the pens forum for it. Good luck. Let us know when you get back.

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Old
02-24-2006, 11:57 AM
  #78
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Let me get this straight . . . last summer the Pens were skewered here for 'ruining the league' by 'scarfing up all the prime FA's' and 'where are they getting the money to spend' was the refrain. Now they are tanking it. Could you all please get your hate filled diatribes, always regarding the Pens, to at least even seem consistent with one another? They become hard to follow otherwise.

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Old
02-24-2006, 12:21 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
Let me get this straight . . . last summer the Pens were skewered here for 'ruining the league' by 'scarfing up all the prime FA's' and 'where are they getting the money to spend' was the refrain. Now they are tanking it. Could you all please get your hate filled diatribes, always regarding the Pens, to at least even seem consistent with one another? They become hard to follow otherwise.
Well, for one I don't say the Penguins are tanking it. However, I would not be surprised if a team like the Pens or the Blues or the Caps went on a season ending slump and cries of "Tank!" filled the air. Nor should you. It happens a lot.

Secondly, I had no problems with the Penguins's free agent signings this summer. In fact, I wasn't even here this summer and couldn't possibly support such arguments anyway - I thought the Pens made great moves.

But in deference to you, I will try to keep my posts more in line with arguments I don't agree with made at a time I wasn't here.

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Old
02-24-2006, 02:27 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pens1566
Try searching the pens forum for it. Good luck. Let us know when you get back.
1)I think Whitney will round out into a top pairing defenseman but he won't be in that upper-echelon of true #1 defensemen like Lidstrom, Blake, McCabe, etc.
2) I concur
3) Ryan Whitney looks as if he's gonna win -- or at least contend -- for the Norris trophy a few times in his career.
4) If I had to make a comparison Welch reminds me alot of one of my favorite defenseman right now Robyn Regehr..
5) Welch- I've seen him play a number of times in WB.
He's going to be a great NHL player.
6) Welch was a top defenseman in college. He's a top defenseman now.
Therefore the conclusion is, Welch looks to be a top defenseman in the NHL in the future.
Erik Christensen reminds me a little bit of Brad Richards.
Christensen is a serious, serious player.
As far as I am concerned, EC will be a star in this league.

There you go. I am done with this conversation.

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Old
02-24-2006, 02:41 PM
  #81
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I would like to see a 1st line of Crosby Malkin Kessel

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Old
02-24-2006, 02:54 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO
1)I think Whitney will round out into a top pairing defenseman but he won't be in that upper-echelon of true #1 defensemen like Lidstrom, Blake, McCabe, etc.
2) I concur
3) Ryan Whitney looks as if he's gonna win -- or at least contend -- for the Norris trophy a few times in his career.
4) If I had to make a comparison Welch reminds me alot of one of my favorite defenseman right now Robyn Regehr..
5) Welch- I've seen him play a number of times in WB.
He's going to be a great NHL player.
6) Welch was a top defenseman in college. He's a top defenseman now.
Therefore the conclusion is, Welch looks to be a top defenseman in the NHL in the future.
Erik Christensen reminds me a little bit of Brad Richards.
Christensen is a serious, serious player.
As far as I am concerned, EC will be a star in this league.

There you go. I am done with this conversation.
M. Richards potentially to be like who?

I'm just wondering who people think Richards will play like? I've heard that he's great at face-offs and a natural center. I'm of course hoping he will be amazing. Who do you think he'll mature into? Is he going to be an Adam Oates type center (face-off's/assists)? A Messier (I wish) type center (everything)? A Premeau type center (grit)? Who would you compare him to?

I think Doug Gilmour is probably the best comparison. He's quite gritty and a talented play making center. He's also a high quality forechecker and one of the best defensive forward prospects out there. A guy on the Devils board thinks Yzerman is a good comparison, but I don't think his offensive upside is nearly that high. At any rate, Mike will be a quality NHL'er from the moment the puck is dropped, imo.

Mike Peca maybe would be a fair assesment

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=170907

i just took carter in my pool and forecaster say he can get 33 goals and 28 assists. Is that realistic? Considering injuries etc...

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=176691

Jeff Carter or Tuomo Ruutu

Who will get more points this season. As it is both of them would be playing on their respective teams top line. Personally i think Ruutu will get more points .

Predicted Point totals

Ruutu 34 goals 28 assits 62 points
Carter 22 goals 33 assits 55 points

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=171842


I could go on and on.

All teams' fans do this. So what is your point again?

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Old
02-24-2006, 03:20 PM
  #83
Pens1566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan
M. Richards potentially to be like who?

I'm just wondering who people think Richards will play like? I've heard that he's great at face-offs and a natural center. I'm of course hoping he will be amazing. Who do you think he'll mature into? Is he going to be an Adam Oates type center (face-off's/assists)? A Messier (I wish) type center (everything)? A Premeau type center (grit)? Who would you compare him to?

I think Doug Gilmour is probably the best comparison. He's quite gritty and a talented play making center. He's also a high quality forechecker and one of the best defensive forward prospects out there. A guy on the Devils board thinks Yzerman is a good comparison, but I don't think his offensive upside is nearly that high. At any rate, Mike will be a quality NHL'er from the moment the puck is dropped, imo.

Mike Peca maybe would be a fair assesment

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=170907

i just took carter in my pool and forecaster say he can get 33 goals and 28 assists. Is that realistic? Considering injuries etc...

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=176691

Jeff Carter or Tuomo Ruutu

Who will get more points this season. As it is both of them would be playing on their respective teams top line. Personally i think Ruutu will get more points .

Predicted Point totals

Ruutu 34 goals 28 assits 62 points
Carter 22 goals 33 assits 55 points

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=171842


I could go on and on.

All teams' fans do this. So what is your point again?
There's an interesting post in the Ruutu/Carter thread that says he'll outscore Crosby too.

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Old
02-24-2006, 04:04 PM
  #84
Pens1566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot
The NFL does not use strength of schedule to determine draft order. Their primary metric remains record first and foremost. It seems like your implying a slightly broader measurement of the league and the establishment of that is going to be subjective: someone can easily look at strength of schedule over man-games lost to injury. The NHL seems to have rolled those two conditions into the final record of a team as a basis for determination via their established point structure for wins, losses, and ties/OT losses/SO losses.

The heart of your implication regarding the draft structure supposes wrong-doing on the part of teams, the theory of tanking seasons to improve draft position.



I get that it would be different. I don't see where it would be better. Change for change's sake is simply that --- change. It does not address your supposition that teams deliberately tank long-term to improve draft position. It introduces randomness to punish potential wrong-doers (who we have no evidence of wrong-doing) while at the same time opening up the possibility that a truely bad team misses the opportunity to draft the best talent available in a particular year based on the one metric used throughout all of sport as the be-all, end-all: record. As a matter of personal taste, I don't care for the idea and do not see it as an improvement on the current system.
Actually, they use opponents winning % as a tie breaker between teams of identical records.

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Old
02-24-2006, 04:20 PM
  #85
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I am getting sick of people complaining about how the pens have 3 high draft picks and could get a fourth.

I don't see everyone complaiing about the Ottawa Senators doing so well.
lets recap

Go to this link
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr000054.html

I think people are just complaining now as their team can't buy their way to the cup and they can see that the draft id the best way to go.

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Old
02-24-2006, 05:29 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO
Nothing to admit. Yes a Flyers fan and a hockey fan. That has nothing to do with the conversation. But unlike a lot of people I can separate the 2 and am not a homer in anyway, shape or form. Hating the Pens has nothing to do with the statement you made about their prospects already panning out. Who has panned out? They have not panned out as of yet. It is too early to tell. Hating the Pens has nothing to do with the fact that a lot of the players on their team wouldnít even be in the NHL on a good team. Hating the Pens has nothing to do with the fact that most Pens fans on these boards seem to think that most (9 out of 10) prospects the Pens have will be stars. Donít know that what I stated would be considered taking a silly position as there is a basis for everything I have said. You donít see me going around hyping up every Flyers prospect that had a good game in the minors or juniors now do you? Why do Pens fans hype up most of their prospects like they are going to be stars? I am not saying they donít have a lot of prospects but being the realist that I am I know more will fail then make it and be productive NHL players. As much as you find it comical on the bashing of the Pens I find it just as comical on the way their prospects are such a sure thing, as per most Pens fans. Besides Crosby and Malkin, the Pens have what most other teams have.
If you truly were a realist you would stop using so many absolutes in your posts and be...ya know...REAL.

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Old
02-24-2006, 05:51 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonQuixote
I mean, really, Pittsburgh had the #5, the #3, and the #2 picks. Plus the #1 in a weighted lottery that was open to all teams.
Actually, they had 2 #1's, a #2 and a #5. And for all intents and purposes, Malkin is equivalent to a #1.

5 D Ryan Whitney
1 G Marc-Andre Fleury
2 C Evgeny Malkin
1 C Sidney Crosby

Not wading into the overall fray, just being a stickler.

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Old
02-24-2006, 06:04 PM
  #88
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They originally had the 3rd but traded it for Florida's 1st which the Pens then used to draft Fleury. So they did draft first but if you go by where they were going into the draft, just based on the season and lottery, it was a 3rd.

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Old
02-24-2006, 06:41 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burgs
They originally had the 3rd but traded it for Florida's 1st which the Pens then used to draft Fleury. So they did draft first but if you go by where they were going into the draft, just based on the season and lottery, it was a 3rd.
Ah, if we're talking original pick status, then my apologies. I thought the post was slanted towards where they picked. Considering the year that happened was 2003, they would have had a good opportunity no matter what.

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Old
02-25-2006, 05:27 PM
  #90
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Just thinking about what the Pens would do if they were to land the 2nd or 3rd pick. There #1 choice is more than likely to be Erik Johnson but he will likely go #1. Kessel is intriguing because he is another highly skilled forward but with Crosby and Malkin already slotted as the future #1 and 2 center maybe trade down for Toews or a top notch winger like Staal or Mueller. The Pens have to put a complete team together not just an offensive mined one. Kessel would just give the Pens something they have but with Mueller or Staal they get a potential first line winger, something they don't have, at least not as talented as a Mueller or Staal.

Toews looks like he will be a solid two way player. He won't be the go to guy on a team but important nonetheless. He could be Pittsburgh's Brindamour, Draper or Conroy, I have actually heard a Brad Richards comparison as well.

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