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Babe Ruth's record - Who is NHL equivalent?

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Old
02-26-2006, 08:59 PM
  #1
chooch*
 
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Babe Ruth's record - Who is NHL equivalent?

Babe had the HR record and famously the most strikeouts also.

I guess the equivalent is scoring a lot of points but being on the ice for many even strength goals against.

anybody have a list of the Even Strength goals against in a career?

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02-27-2006, 01:20 AM
  #2
Czech Your Math
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Good luck finding that stat

Might start with the guys near the bottom of this list.

Career Plus-Minus (active or recently retired)
-----------------
S. Stevens +377
Lidstrom +283
Fedorov +267
Jagr +231
Forsberg +227
Lindros +217
Leclair +214
Messier +210
Desjardins +197
Yzerman +197
Roenick +182
Niedermayer +177
Lehtinen +171
Nieuwendyk +164
Elias +147
Zubov +144
Turgeon +141
Modano +139
Shanahan +132
Pronger +129
Gagne +122
Y. Kozlov +120
Lemieux +115
Demitra +107
Amonte +101
Palffy +83
Alfredsson +82
Robitaille +81
Mogilny +81
Guerin +74
Peca +73
Bondra +70
Hossa +68
Sundin +56
Selanne +53
Tkachuk +48
Straka +47
Stumpel +45
Nagy +42
Gonchar +41
Kariya +40
Thornton +40
St. Louis +40
Andreychuk +38
Zetterberg +38
Datsyuk +37
Arnott +36
Oates +35
Naslund +31
Satan +31
Lang +30
Leetch +29
Iginla +27
Recchi +24
Sakic +23
Br. Hull +23
Brind'amour +3
Blake 0
Heatley -6
Francis -10
Kovalev -10
Ricci -13
Jovanovski -21
Barnes -23
Bertuzzi -24
S. Young -28
Mellanby -31
Lecavalier -60
Nash -62
Kovalchuk -65
Yashin -79

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Old
02-27-2006, 01:21 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Babe had the HR record and famously the most strikeouts also.

I guess the equivalent is scoring a lot of points but being on the ice for many even strength goals against.

anybody have a list of the Even Strength goals against in a career?
No, that wouldn't be equivalent. Ruth still hit well over .300 and led in categories like RBI and Total Bases. Need a new comparison.

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02-27-2006, 01:45 AM
  #4
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Adam Dunn!

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02-27-2006, 02:07 AM
  #5
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brett hull would be the most babe-like

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Old
02-27-2006, 06:30 AM
  #6
pnep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
anybody have a list of the Even Strength goals against in a career?
Season....

YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
============================================
1978 -- NJ -- D -- Owchar Dennis -- 141 -- 80
1990 -- PIT -- D -- Coffey Paul -- 140 -- 115
1981 -- PHO -- D -- Babych Dave -- 139 -- 78
1986 -- TOR -- D -- Nylund Gary -- 137 -- 105
1984 -- PHO -- D -- Babych Dave -- 131 -- 100
1973 -- VAN -- D -- Guevremont Jocelyn -- 130 -- 88
1982 -- PHO -- D -- Babych Dave -- 129 -- 118
1987 -- VAN -- D -- Lidster Doug -- 128 -- 93
1982 -- DET -- D -- Larson Reed -- 128 -- 111
1976 -- NYR -- D -- Vadnais Carol -- 127 -- 111
1986 -- PHO -- D -- Ellett Dave -- 126 -- 88
1980 -- STL -- D -- Lapointe Rick -- 126 -- 102
1984 -- LA -- D -- Hardy Mark -- 125 -- 95
1982 -- DET -- D -- Huber Willie -- 125 -- 109
1982 -- NJ -- D -- Ramage Rob -- 125 -- 78
1981 -- DET -- D -- Larson Reed -- 125 -- 90
1979 -- STL -- D -- Gibbs Barry -- 125 -- 83
1978 -- DAL -- D -- Maxwell Brad -- 125 -- 68


YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
=============================================
1981 -- PHO -- L -- Lukowich Morris -- 108 -- 69
1983 -- CAR -- L -- Sulliman Doug -- 107 -- 50
1981 -- CAR -- L -- Boutette Pat -- 106 -- 93
1981 -- PHO -- L -- Dupont Norm -- 105 -- 48
1985 -- DET -- L -- Ogrodnick John -- 104 -- 105
1986 -- PHO -- L -- Boschman Laurie -- 103 -- 74
1975 -- DET -- L -- Bloom Mike -- 102 -- 50
1974 -- BUF -- L -- Martin Rick -- 102 -- 80
1989 -- LA -- L -- Robitaille Luc -- 100 -- 105
1983 -- DET -- L -- Osborne Mark -- 100 -- 59
1975 -- WAS -- L -- Marson Mike -- 100 -- 35

YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
==============================================
1989 -- LA -- C -- Gretzky Wayne -- 126 -- 141
1990 -- COL -- C -- Sakic Joe -- 121 -- 81
1986 -- EDM -- C -- Gretzky Wayne -- 120 -- 191
1981 -- PHO -- C -- Christian Dave -- 119 -- 65
1982 -- COL -- C -- Stastny Peter -- 118 -- 108
1990 -- DET -- C -- Yzerman Steve -- 116 -- 110
1975 -- DAL -- C -- Hextall Dennis -- 116 -- 72
1990 -- LA -- C -- Gretzky Wayne -- 114 -- 122
1985 -- PIT -- C -- Lemieux Mario -- 114 -- 79
1982 -- PHO -- C -- Christian Dave -- 111 -- 70
1991 -- COL -- C -- Sakic Joe -- 110 -- 84
1981 -- CAR -- C -- Rogers Mike -- 110 -- 88
1976 -- NJ -- C -- Charron Guy -- 110 -- 59
1976 -- WAS -- C -- Pyatt Nelson -- 110 -- 54
1975 -- DET -- C -- Dionne Marcel -- 110 -- 95
1974 -- CLE -- C -- Boldirev Ivan -- 110 -- 59

YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
==============================================
1974 -- CLE -- R -- Leach Reggie -- 111 -- 50
1985 -- DET -- R -- Duguay Ron -- 108 -- 92
1976 -- WAS -- R -- Monahan Hartland -- 108 -- 59
1993 -- PHI -- R -- Recchi Mark -- 105 -- 106
1982 -- WAS -- R -- Gartner Mike -- 104 -- 93
1985 -- PIT -- R -- Shedden Doug -- 103 -- 52
1971 -- DET -- R -- Webster Tom -- 103 -- 56
1984 -- PHO -- R -- DeBlois Lucien -- 102 -- 87
1986 -- PIT -- R -- Duguay Ron -- 100 -- 56
1983 -- CAR -- R -- Stoughton Blaine -- 100 -- 77
1975 -- DAL -- R -- Goldsworthy Bill -- 99 -- 62
1981 -- CAR -- R -- Stoughton Blaine -- 98 -- 81
1981 -- NJ -- R -- McDonald Lanny -- 98 -- 71
1980 -- EDM -- R -- MacDonald Blair -- 98 -- 99

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02-27-2006, 06:31 AM
  #7
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Career....

Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
=========================
Gretzky Wayne -- 1838 -- 2356
Coffey Paul -- 1654 -- 1948
Murphy Larry -- 1541 -- 1741
Bourque Ray -- 1458 -- 1986
Messier Mark -- 1455 -- 1662
Francis Ron -- 1454 -- 1453
Babych Dave -- 1422 -- 1199
Stevens Scott -- 1399 -- 1789
Housley Phil -- 1386 -- 1333
Dionne Marcel -- 1368 -- 1396
Salming Borje -- 1356 -- 1531
Robinson Larry -- 1297 -- 2027
Vadnais Carol -- 1281 -- 1219
Yzerman Steve -- 1265 -- 1432
Gartner Mike -- 1236 -- 1303
Ramage Rob -- 1214 -- 1043
Carlyle Randy -- 1208 -- 1073
Hawerchuk Dale -- 1202 -- 1110
Larson Reed -- 1180 -- 1052
Oates Adam -- 1170 -- 1205
Hatcher Kevin -- 1165 -- 1138
Perreault Gilbert -- 1154 -- 1196
MacInnis Al -- 1146 -- 1519
Roberts Gordie -- 1135 -- 1185
Kurri Jari -- 1126 -- 1424
Gilmour Doug -- 1125 -- 1257
Russell Phil -- 1124 -- 1176
Leetch Brian -- 1120 -- 1149
Adams Greg -- 1116 -- 1080
Wilson Doug -- 1109 -- 1162
Chelios Chris -- 1106 -- 1401
Park Brad -- 1098 -- 1456
Nicholls Bernie -- 1094 -- 1056
Ciccarelli Dino -- 1091 -- 1089
Ellett Dave -- 1081 -- 1033
Robitaille Luc -- 1080 -- 1154
Lemieux Mario -- 1072 -- 1205
Murray Bob -- 1072 -- 1085
Verbeek Pat -- 1049 -- 1005
Muller Kirk -- 1044 -- 898
Greschner Ron -- 1043 -- 963
Stastny Peter -- 1041 -- 1029
Esposito Phil -- 1040 -- 1237
Andreychuk Dave -- 1038 -- 1098
Stackhouse Ron -- 1036 -- 1077
Lowe Kevin -- 1033 -- 1285
Sittler Darryl -- 1025 -- 1078
Damphousse Vincent -- 1021 -- 1035
Federko Bernie -- 1019 -- 887
Boldirev Ivan -- 1015 -- 825
Hull Brett -- 1014 -- 1044

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Old
02-27-2006, 08:38 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnep
Career....

Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
=========================
Gretzky Wayne -- 1838 -- 2356
Coffey Paul -- 1654 -- 1948
Murphy Larry -- 1541 -- 1741
Bourque Ray -- 1458 -- 1986
Messier Mark -- 1455 -- 1662
Francis Ron -- 1454 -- 1453
Babych Dave -- 1422 -- 1199
THANKS!!! Great job.

Some guys I can understand because they were matched against the top offensive
trios or played 40 min on Defence each night; but others...gosh awful hockey.....

Funny I dont see any Montreal forwards.

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02-27-2006, 08:45 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math
Might start with the guys near the bottom of this list.

Career Plus-Minus (active or recently retired)
-----------------
S. Stevens +377
Lidstrom +283
Fedorov +267
Jagr +231
Forsberg +227
Lindros +217
Leclair +214
Messier +210
Desjardins +197
Yzerman +197
Roenick +182
Niedermayer +177
Lehtinen +171
Nieuwendyk +164
Elias +147
Zubov +144
Turgeon +141
Modano +139
Shanahan +132
Pronger +129
Gagne +122
Y. Kozlov +120
Lemieux +115
Demitra +107
Amonte +101
Palffy +83
Alfredsson +82
Robitaille +81
Mogilny +81
Guerin +74
Peca +73
Bondra +70
Hossa +68
Sundin +56
Selanne +53
Tkachuk +48
Straka +47
Stumpel +45
Nagy +42
Gonchar +41
Kariya +40
Thornton +40
St. Louis +40
Andreychuk +38
Zetterberg +38
Datsyuk +37
Arnott +36
Oates +35
Naslund +31
Satan +31
Lang +30
Leetch +29
Iginla +27
Recchi +24
Sakic +23
Br. Hull +23
Brind'amour +3
Blake 0
Heatley -6
Francis -10
Kovalev -10
Ricci -13
Jovanovski -21
Barnes -23
Bertuzzi -24
S. Young -28
Mellanby -31
Lecavalier -60
Nash -62
Kovalchuk -65
Yashin -79
comparing Alexei Yashin to Babe Ruth just doesnt seem right

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02-27-2006, 08:49 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
THANKS!!! Great job.

Some guys I can understand because they were matched against the top offensive
trios or played 40 min on Defence each night; but others...gosh awful hockey.....

Funny I dont see any Montreal forwards.
Apparently you missed the second column:
Quote:
Player -- ESGA -- ESGF
=========================
Gretzky Wayne -- 1838 -- 2356
Coffey Paul -- 1654 -- 1948
Murphy Larry -- 1541 -- 1741
Bourque Ray -- 1458 -- 1986
Messier Mark -- 1455 -- 1662
Francis Ron -- 1454 -- 1453
Babych Dave -- 1422 -- 1199
Stevens Scott -- 1399 -- 1789
Gretzky was on the ice for over 500 more goals for than against. One of the best career marks ever. Lemieux? Not so good.

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Old
02-27-2006, 11:10 PM
  #11
Czech Your Math
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islanders4Life
comparing Alexei Yashin to Babe Ruth just doesnt seem right
Agreed, but neither is the notion that strikeouts are so bad. Maybe a better analogy would be Grounded Into Double Plays (killed offensive chances) or poor defensive play. I think he's looking for players like Brett Hull, Robitaille, Gartner, Mogilny, Nash, Kovalchuk, etc... players who put up big goal numbers, but whose playmaking and defense aren't great. Perhaps the closest type in baseball terms would be a power hitter hits lots of homers and drives in runs, but who doesn't get on base that much or play very good defense (e.g. Jim Rice, Don Baylor, Cecil Fielder, Sammy Sosa, Bobby Bonilla, etc.).

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02-28-2006, 01:49 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Babe had the HR record and famously the most strikeouts also.

I guess the equivalent is scoring a lot of points but being on the ice for many even strength goals against.

anybody have a list of the Even Strength goals against in a career?
Actually, no. Babe Ruth does not have the most career strikeouts. He is currently #78 on the all-time list with 1330 over 22 years (about 60/yr avg, 93 tops). Reggie Jackson is #1 with almost 2x - 2597 over 21 years (about 123/yr).

A better equivalent for Babe Ruth would be a Vezina winning Goalie ditching the pads after 5 years and going on to score 700+ goals. Most people just don't appreciate how phenominal the Babe was - they just see the John Goodman like physique and assume he was just a big slow not-too-athletic guy. He spent his first 4+ seasons as a pitcher and still holds the 12th highest winning %-age (min 100 decisions) of all time - 94W 46L .671 w/ a 2.28 ERA. He very well might have made the HOF as a pitcher if he didn't also have the phenominal bat.


Last edited by kdb209: 02-28-2006 at 01:54 AM.
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Old
02-28-2006, 02:52 AM
  #13
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Yeah, The Babe really has no comparison IMO. Barry Bonds isn't even close to the league that Ruth was. Nobody has ever dominated so completely a game in all manners as Ruth did baseball. As kdb said, it would have basicly been like Wayne Gretzky winning a Vezina and being a great goalie for the first part of his career then going on to do what he did. The Babe was hitting 60 homers when other top power hitters in the league could only dream of hitting 30.

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02-28-2006, 04:45 AM
  #14
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I too take exception with the degredation of Babe Ruth. No one compares to Ruth as a batsman. He is first in all-time Slugging Average (which measures the quality of hits) with a .690 Slugging Average to Ted Williams .634 SLG. Ruth is second all-time a .474 On-Base Average to Ted William's .482 OBA.

As for hockey, you have presented great statistics pnep, thank you. It would be interesting to see how Bobby Orr, Jean Beliveau and Gordie Howe's even-strength goal differntial stacked up, but I don't think they kept statistics that completely in their times.

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02-28-2006, 05:40 AM
  #15
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YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- GP -- ESGF -- ESGA
================================================== ====
1968 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 46 -- 71 -- 41
1969 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 67 -- 117 -- 52
1970 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 76 -- 113 -- 59
1971 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 78 -- 179 -- 55
1972 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 76 -- 140 -- 54
1973 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 63 -- 116 -- 60
1974 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 74 -- 167 -- 83
1975 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 80 -- 165 -- 85
1976 -- BOS -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 10 -- 19 -- 9
1977 -- CHI -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 20 -- 22 -- 16
1979 -- CHI -- D -- Bobby Orr -- 6 -- 7 -- 5

YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- GP -- ESGF -- ESGA
================================================== ====
1968 -- MTL -- C -- Jean Beliveau -- 59 -- 59 -- 32
1969 -- MTL -- C -- Jean Beliveau -- 69 -- 74 -- 59
1970 -- MTL -- C -- Jean Beliveau -- 63 -- 33 -- 32
1971 -- MTL -- C -- Jean Beliveau -- 70 -- 64 -- 40

YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- Player -- GP -- ESGF -- ESGA
================================================== ====
1968 -- DET -- R -- Gordie Howe -- 74 -- 83 -- 71
1969 -- DET -- R -- Gordie Howe -- 76 -- 99 -- 54
1970 -- DET -- R -- Gordie Howe -- 76 -- 67 -- 44
1971 -- DET -- R -- Gordie Howe -- 63 -- 52 -- 54
1980 -- CAR -- C -- Gordie Howe -- 80 -- 55 -- 46

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02-28-2006, 06:05 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Apparently you missed the second column:


Gretzky was on the ice for over 500 more goals for than against. One of the best career marks ever. Lemieux? Not so good.
I believe you can actually make that the best ever if I am not mistaken.

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02-28-2006, 06:23 AM
  #17
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Best "Even Strength Goals Against per Game"
(ESGF+ESGA>60)

YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- FIRST LAST -- GP -- ESGF -- ESGA -- ESGAPG
================================================== ============
1975 -- PHI -- C -- Bobby Clarke -- 80 -- 98 -- 19 -- 0,238

1994 -- NJ -- C -- Bobby Holik -- 70 -- 46 -- 18 -- 0,257

1971 -- BOS -- L -- Don Marcotte -- 75 -- 40 -- 20 -- 0,267
1977 -- NYI -- L -- Bob Bourne -- 75 -- 47 -- 20 -- 0,267

1974 -- PHI -- L -- Dave Schultz -- 73 -- 46 -- 20 -- 0,274
1975 -- PHI -- R -- Reggie Leach -- 80 -- 75 -- 22 -- 0,275

1989 -- CGY -- R -- Tim Hunter -- 75 -- 43 -- 21 -- 0,28
2003 -- DAL -- C -- Niko Kapanen -- 82 -- 48 -- 23 -- 0,28
2003 -- OTT -- C -- Shaun Van Allen -- 78 -- 39 -- 22 -- 0,282
1998 -- NJ -- L -- Patrik Elias -- 74 -- 39 -- 21 -- 0,284
1998 -- NJ -- R -- Randy McKay -- 74 -- 51 -- 21 -- 0,284
1976 -- PHI -- C -- Bobby Clarke -- 76 -- 105 -- 22 -- 0,289

1978 -- MTL -- R -- Yvan Cournoyer -- 68 -- 59 -- 20 -- 0,294
1997 -- DAL -- R -- Todd Harvey -- 71 -- 40 -- 21 -- 0,296

1998 -- DAL -- D -- Craig Ludwig -- 80 -- 45 -- 24 -- 0,3
1994 -- BUF -- C -- Dave Hannan -- 83 -- 35 -- 25 -- 0,301
2003 -- DAL -- D -- Stephane Robidas -- 76 -- 38 -- 23 -- 0,303
1981 -- BUF -- D -- Mike Ramsey -- 72 -- 38 -- 22 -- 0,306
1972 -- PHI -- L -- Bob Kelly -- 78 -- 40 -- 24 -- 0,308

1985 -- BUF -- C -- Brent Peterson -- 74 -- 41 -- 23 -- 0,311
1989 -- CGY -- L -- Colin Patterson -- 74 -- 67 -- 23 -- 0,311
1983 -- PHI -- C -- Mark Taylor -- 61 -- 44 -- 19 -- 0,311
2000 -- CAR -- L -- Bates Battaglia -- 77 -- 44 -- 24 -- 0,312
1977 -- MTL -- C -- Doug Jarvis -- 80 -- 55 -- 25 -- 0,313
1974 -- MTL -- L -- Steve Shutt -- 70 -- 41 -- 22 -- 0,314
1979 -- NYI -- C -- Lorne Henning -- 73 -- 40 -- 23 -- 0,315
1974 -- CHI -- L -- John Marks -- 76 -- 46 -- 24 -- 0,316
1977 -- MTL -- R -- Murray Wilson -- 60 -- 44 -- 19 -- 0,317
2002 -- VAN -- L -- Henrik Sedin -- 82 -- 35 -- 26 -- 0,317
2000 -- STL -- L -- Jochen Hecht -- 63 -- 40 -- 20 -- 0,317

1999 -- DET -- D -- Mathieu Dandenault -- 75 -- 41 -- 24 -- 0,32
2000 -- OTT -- C -- Shaun Van Allen -- 75 -- 44 -- 24 -- 0,32
1972 -- CHI -- R -- Chico Maki -- 62 -- 64 -- 20 -- 0,323
1996 -- COL -- L -- Stephane Yelle -- 71 -- 38 -- 23 -- 0,324
1973 -- MTL -- C -- Henri Richard -- 71 -- 57 -- 23 -- 0,324
1972 -- NYR -- C -- Gene Carr -- 74 -- 40 -- 24 -- 0,324
2001 -- DAL -- D -- Brad Lukowich -- 80 -- 54 -- 26 -- 0,325
1975 -- LA -- L -- Mike Corrigan -- 80 -- 35 -- 26 -- 0,325
2000 -- PHI -- L -- Simon Gagne -- 80 -- 37 -- 26 -- 0,325
1996 -- CGY -- D -- Jamie Huscroft -- 70 -- 37 -- 23 -- 0,329
1977 -- BUF -- R -- Gary McAdam -- 73 -- 41 -- 24 -- 0,329
1985 -- BUF -- R -- Ric Seiling -- 73 -- 54 -- 24 -- 0,329
1974 -- BOS -- R -- Terry O'Reilly -- 76 -- 55 -- 25 -- 0,329
1996 -- ANA -- L -- Garry Valk -- 79 -- 34 -- 26 -- 0,329

1974 -- BOS -- C -- Andre Savard -- 72 -- 40 -- 24 -- 0,333
1975 -- CGY -- L -- Keith McCreary -- 78 -- 38 -- 26 -- 0,333
2003 -- EDM -- D -- Scott Ferguson -- 78 -- 37 -- 26 -- 0,333
2002 -- LA -- R -- Craig Johnson -- 72 -- 38 -- 24 -- 0,333
1988 -- MTL -- L -- Bob Gainey -- 78 -- 34 -- 26 -- 0,333
1979 -- MTL -- D -- Gilles Lupien -- 72 -- 57 -- 24 -- 0,333
2003 -- DAL -- R -- Jere Lehtinen -- 80 -- 66 -- 27 -- 0,338
1998 -- DET -- R -- Doug Brown -- 80 -- 44 -- 27 -- 0,338
2001 -- NJ -- L -- John Madden -- 80 -- 51 -- 27 -- 0,338
1977 -- NYI -- C -- Lorne Henning -- 80 -- 48 -- 27 -- 0,338
1974 -- CHI -- L -- Darcy Rota -- 74 -- 41 -- 25 -- 0,338
1985 -- CGY -- R -- Tim Hunter -- 71 -- 38 -- 24 -- 0,338
1978 -- MTL -- C -- Pierre Mondou -- 71 -- 56 -- 24 -- 0,338
1992 -- NJ -- R -- Doug Brown -- 71 -- 41 -- 24 -- 0,338
1974 -- PHI -- C -- Terry Crisp -- 71 -- 36 -- 24 -- 0,338
1976 -- PHI -- L -- Dave Schultz -- 71 -- 48 -- 24 -- 0,338
1993 -- WAS -- R -- Keith Jones -- 71 -- 42 -- 24 -- 0,338

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02-28-2006, 10:57 AM
  #18
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Babe Ruth had 2062 walks and only 1330 Strike outs. Using his Strikeout total as a mark against him is mental. In every one of his full seasons as a Slugger he had far, far more walks than stikeouts. Like an average of 125 walks to 70 strikeouts. For a Slugger who got 45-60 Homeruns every year to have so few Stikrouts and so many walks indicates great bat control and strike zone management. Perhaps Reggie Jackson is the type of player you wish to allude to as having a weakness in taking too many strikeouts but the Babe is not a good example. He was great at everything. He was stellar on defence until late in his career due to having the best outfield arm in baseball. He was aggresive on the bases. Until later in his career he could be considered an excellent baserunner. He may have been a bit fat but so what it took little from his game offensively or defensively. He is the only baseball player that could fall into the Gretzky category as being obscenely better than anyone else. He was a true five tool player that had no weaknesses. The only comparable Hockey player was Orr who was peerless defewnsively and won 2 Art Ross as a Defenceman. But he never played goalie and Ruth was a top pitcher.

To use Ruth as an example of a player with a significant weakness is pretty poor. Ruth can only be used as an example of greatness.

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03-01-2006, 08:49 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Apparently you missed the second column:


Gretzky was on the ice for over 500 more goals for than against. One of the best career marks ever. Lemieux? Not so good.
I'm taking the high road with you again, reckster.

If you were a glass half full guy, you could say that there was a subtle Ruth-$99 comparison I was making (its true he is the Ruth of hockey). Instead you want to bring up what I overlooked - ?

How about the only player to top more than once the evens strength goals against list for his position in his prime. I mean look at the 3 years $99 is on top of the list for at Centre. Those are prime prime years. Lemieux in 85 you can expect or Sakic in 89,90 (theyre young, their teams suck).

And you know that many of the 2300 ESGF were scored at the end of 4-1 games potting a couple or assisting in a meaningless way.

Come on - give him a break and stop dragging him into every discussion.

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03-01-2006, 09:17 PM
  #20
reckoning
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Originally Posted by chooch
I'm taking the high road with you again, reckster.

If you were a glass half full guy, you could say that there was a subtle Ruth-$99 comparison I was making (its true he is the Ruth of hockey). Instead you want to bring up what I overlooked - ?

How about the only player to top more than once the evens strength goals against list for his position in his prime. I mean look at the 3 years $99 is on top of the list for at Centre. Those are prime prime years. Lemieux in 85 you can expect or Sakic in 89,90 (theyre young, their teams suck).

And you know that many of the 2300 ESGF were scored at the end of 4-1 games potting a couple or assisting in a meaningless way.

Come on - give him a break and stop dragging him into every discussion.
Well chooch, you need to look at the big picture. Gretzky was putting in more icetime in his prime than most other forwards, so obviously there`s going to be more goals both for and against when he`s on the ice than others. The key is making sure the goals for outnumber the goals against. Yes, Gretzky is the only centre on the list three times; those three times are also the only three + seasons on that list as well.

So Lemieux was young on a team that sucked, well in NY Gretzky was old on a team that sucked, yet you love bringing up his minus seasons there. Can`t have it both ways. At least Gretzky never had a mark as bad as -35.

Gretzky scored his points in meaningless blowouts? Haven`t we been through this about.. oh a hundred times before. Please provide proof if you`re going to keep beating that horse. What about Mario`s last game in `93, racking up 5 goals in a blowout against the last-place Rangers? Or his 5 goals in 5 different ways against a weak Devil team; one of those titanic 8-6 East defensive battles.

Why do I always bring up Lemieux? Hey, it`s not as if I`ve started a "What least impressed you about Mario?" thread.

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Old
03-02-2006, 10:05 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Well chooch, you need to look at the big picture. Gretzky was putting in more icetime in his prime than most other forwards, so obviously there`s going to be more goals both for and against when he`s on the ice than others. The key is making sure the goals for outnumber the goals against. Yes, Gretzky is the only centre on the list three times; those three times are also the only three + seasons on that list as well.

So Lemieux was young on a team that sucked, well in NY Gretzky was old on a team that sucked, yet you love bringing up his minus seasons there. Can`t have it both ways. At least Gretzky never had a mark as bad as -35.

Gretzky scored his points in meaningless blowouts? Haven`t we been through this about.. oh a hundred times before. Please provide proof if you`re going to keep beating that horse. What about Mario`s last game in `93, racking up 5 goals in a blowout against the last-place Rangers? Or his 5 goals in 5 different ways against a weak Devil team; one of those titanic 8-6 East defensive battles.

Why do I always bring up Lemieux? Hey, it`s not as if I`ve started a "What least impressed you about Mario?" thread.
Let me say first of all I have a great deal of respect for US$99 as you well know.

But I am very troubled to read your last comment. Very troubled.

Let me say this: I'd be the first to post a thread like that on Mario if I thought he was getting a free ride. But after getting cancer and coming back to win the Ross in the same season and still getting criticised for his attitude and lack of love for hockey etc etc . i dont think you need me to post that - you just gotta listen to the Cherry's every day.

As for your "arguments"....

You want proof about blowouts, you provide proof about ice time!

btw its defence that wins Cups not a bigger + than a - or whatever you said.

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Old
03-02-2006, 10:34 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by pnep
Best "Even Strength Goals Against per Game"
(ESGF+ESGA>60)

YEAR -- Franch. -- POS -- FIRST LAST -- GP -- ESGF -- ESGA -- ESGAPG
================================================== ============
1975 -- PHI -- C -- Bobby Clarke -- 80 -- 98 -- 19 -- 0,238

1994 -- NJ -- C -- Bobby Holik -- 70 -- 46 -- 18 -- 0,257

1971 -- BOS -- L -- Don Marcotte -- 75 -- 40 -- 20 -- 0,267
1977 -- NYI -- L -- Bob Bourne -- 75 -- 47 -- 20 -- 0,267

1974 -- PHI -- L -- Dave Schultz -- 73 -- 46 -- 20 -- 0,274
1975 -- PHI -- R -- Reggie Leach -- 80 -- 75 -- 22 -- 0,275

1989 -- CGY -- R -- Tim Hunter -- 75 -- 43 -- 21 -- 0,28
2003 -- DAL -- C -- Niko Kapanen -- 82 -- 48 -- 23 -- 0,28
2003 -- OTT -- C -- Shaun Van Allen -- 78 -- 39 -- 22 -- 0,282
1998 -- NJ -- L -- Patrik Elias -- 74 -- 39 -- 21 -- 0,284
1998 -- NJ -- R -- Randy McKay -- 74 -- 51 -- 21 -- 0,284
1976 -- PHI -- C -- Bobby Clarke -- 76 -- 105 -- 22 -- 0,289

1978 -- MTL -- R -- Yvan Cournoyer -- 68 -- 59 -- 20 -- 0,294
1997 -- DAL -- R -- Todd Harvey -- 71 -- 40 -- 21 -- 0,296

1998 -- DAL -- D -- Craig Ludwig -- 80 -- 45 -- 24 -- 0,3
1994 -- BUF -- C -- Dave Hannan -- 83 -- 35 -- 25 -- 0,301
2003 -- DAL -- D -- Stephane Robidas -- 76 -- 38 -- 23 -- 0,303
1981 -- BUF -- D -- Mike Ramsey -- 72 -- 38 -- 22 -- 0,306
1972 -- PHI -- L -- Bob Kelly -- 78 -- 40 -- 24 -- 0,308

1985 -- BUF -- C -- Brent Peterson -- 74 -- 41 -- 23 -- 0,311
1989 -- CGY -- L -- Colin Patterson -- 74 -- 67 -- 23 -- 0,311
1983 -- PHI -- C -- Mark Taylor -- 61 -- 44 -- 19 -- 0,311
2000 -- CAR -- L -- Bates Battaglia -- 77 -- 44 -- 24 -- 0,312
1977 -- MTL -- C -- Doug Jarvis -- 80 -- 55 -- 25 -- 0,313
1974 -- MTL -- L -- Steve Shutt -- 70 -- 41 -- 22 -- 0,314
1979 -- NYI -- C -- Lorne Henning -- 73 -- 40 -- 23 -- 0,315
1974 -- CHI -- L -- John Marks -- 76 -- 46 -- 24 -- 0,316
1977 -- MTL -- R -- Murray Wilson -- 60 -- 44 -- 19 -- 0,317
2002 -- VAN -- L -- Henrik Sedin -- 82 -- 35 -- 26 -- 0,317
2000 -- STL -- L -- Jochen Hecht -- 63 -- 40 -- 20 -- 0,317

1999 -- DET -- D -- Mathieu Dandenault -- 75 -- 41 -- 24 -- 0,32
2000 -- OTT -- C -- Shaun Van Allen -- 75 -- 44 -- 24 -- 0,32
1972 -- CHI -- R -- Chico Maki -- 62 -- 64 -- 20 -- 0,323
1996 -- COL -- L -- Stephane Yelle -- 71 -- 38 -- 23 -- 0,324
1973 -- MTL -- C -- Henri Richard -- 71 -- 57 -- 23 -- 0,324
1972 -- NYR -- C -- Gene Carr -- 74 -- 40 -- 24 -- 0,324
2001 -- DAL -- D -- Brad Lukowich -- 80 -- 54 -- 26 -- 0,325
1975 -- LA -- L -- Mike Corrigan -- 80 -- 35 -- 26 -- 0,325
2000 -- PHI -- L -- Simon Gagne -- 80 -- 37 -- 26 -- 0,325
1996 -- CGY -- D -- Jamie Huscroft -- 70 -- 37 -- 23 -- 0,329
1977 -- BUF -- R -- Gary McAdam -- 73 -- 41 -- 24 -- 0,329
1985 -- BUF -- R -- Ric Seiling -- 73 -- 54 -- 24 -- 0,329
1974 -- BOS -- R -- Terry O'Reilly -- 76 -- 55 -- 25 -- 0,329
1996 -- ANA -- L -- Garry Valk -- 79 -- 34 -- 26 -- 0,329

1974 -- BOS -- C -- Andre Savard -- 72 -- 40 -- 24 -- 0,333
1975 -- CGY -- L -- Keith McCreary -- 78 -- 38 -- 26 -- 0,333
2003 -- EDM -- D -- Scott Ferguson -- 78 -- 37 -- 26 -- 0,333
2002 -- LA -- R -- Craig Johnson -- 72 -- 38 -- 24 -- 0,333
1988 -- MTL -- L -- Bob Gainey -- 78 -- 34 -- 26 -- 0,333
1979 -- MTL -- D -- Gilles Lupien -- 72 -- 57 -- 24 -- 0,333
2003 -- DAL -- R -- Jere Lehtinen -- 80 -- 66 -- 27 -- 0,338
1998 -- DET -- R -- Doug Brown -- 80 -- 44 -- 27 -- 0,338
2001 -- NJ -- L -- John Madden -- 80 -- 51 -- 27 -- 0,338
1977 -- NYI -- C -- Lorne Henning -- 80 -- 48 -- 27 -- 0,338
1974 -- CHI -- L -- Darcy Rota -- 74 -- 41 -- 25 -- 0,338
1985 -- CGY -- R -- Tim Hunter -- 71 -- 38 -- 24 -- 0,338
1978 -- MTL -- C -- Pierre Mondou -- 71 -- 56 -- 24 -- 0,338
1992 -- NJ -- R -- Doug Brown -- 71 -- 41 -- 24 -- 0,338
1974 -- PHI -- C -- Terry Crisp -- 71 -- 36 -- 24 -- 0,338
1976 -- PHI -- L -- Dave Schultz -- 71 -- 48 -- 24 -- 0,338
1993 -- WAS -- R -- Keith Jones -- 71 -- 42 -- 24 -- 0,338
Are you the NHL? How do you get all these stats?

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Old
03-02-2006, 10:49 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicto10
Are you the NHL? How do you get all these stats?
I have a NHL stats database (compiled from various sources)....

and i not related to NHL (btw, im Russian)

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Old
03-08-2006, 05:23 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by thome_26
Yeah, The Babe really has no comparison IMO. Barry Bonds isn't even close to the league that Ruth was. Nobody has ever dominated so completely a game in all manners as Ruth did baseball. As kdb said, it would have basicly been like Wayne Gretzky winning a Vezina and being a great goalie for the first part of his career then going on to do what he did. The Babe was hitting 60 homers when other top power hitters in the league could only dream of hitting 30.
Some of the best other players were also banned while Ruth played. That would be like banning all europeans and french canadiens when gretz played. Obviously Ruth was a great, great player, but his numbers would have been weakened if he played against the likes of Paige, and his numbers wouldn't look as good comparitively when compared to somebody like Gibson. Unfortunatly, we will never know how different it would have been, a damn shame if you ask me. At the same time, Basbeall wouldn't have the same history, and a guy like Jackie Robinson would probably be unknown.

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