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10-25-2003, 08:02 AM
  #1
Bruwinz37
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Denis Gauthier

Is reportedly on the trading block per RDS Canada.

Man would I like to have this guy as our #6 instead of Moran. I wonder what Calgary woud want in return for him?

This is the exact type of guy the Bruins should look for in a deal. Young, pretty talented, ferocious hitter, mean as hell and inexpensive. If I am MOC I make that call, and make a deal if it is within reason. He gives our D that element that every D needs....a big time hitter. I know he tends to take some dumb penalties, but he was playing 20 mins + a game last year and is a good player. The Bruins have assets (Hilbert?) or picks (extra second rounder) to make a deal like this. I hope we at least inquire.

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10-25-2003, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruwinz20
Is reportedly on the trading block per RDS Canada.

Man would I like to have this guy as our #6 instead of Moran. I wonder what Calgary woud want in return for him?

This is the exact type of guy the Bruins should look for in a deal. Young, pretty talented, ferocious hitter, mean as hell and inexpensive. If I am MOC I make that call, and make a deal if it is within reason. He gives our D that element that every D needs....a big time hitter. I know he tends to take some dumb penalties, but he was playing 20 mins + a game last year and is a good player. The Bruins have assets (Hilbert?) or picks (extra second rounder) to make a deal like this. I hope we at least inquire.
I agree but....the defense isn't overly mobile as is. I do think you'll see sometime later in the season a couple of prospects go for a number 3ish defenseman or second line scorer IF thats whats needed. Who knows, the second line could be in place and the defense playing well. However, I can see exactly what your saying happen. I still think Calgary is the team as you have a couple of interesting defenseman I believe MOC is interested in; Kobasaw who I feel MOC can't get over like Jillson- and there is always Conroy.

I think McVee was out looking at these players and had nothing to do with Berard signing with Calgary. The Broons if they hit on Bergeron and Zinovjev will be able to move some of the Huml, Hilbert, Morrisonn maybe Samuelsson in right package for a package like a Kobasaw and Gauthier.

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10-25-2003, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKH
I agree but....the defense isn't overly mobile as is. I do think you'll see sometime later in the season a couple of prospects go for a number 3ish defenseman or second line scorer IF thats whats needed. Who knows, the second line could be in place and the defense playing well. However, I can see exactly what your saying happen. I still think Calgary is the team as you have a couple of interesting defenseman I believe MOC is interested in; Kobasaw who I feel MOC can't get over like Jillson- and there is always Conroy.

I think McVee was out looking at these players and had nothing to do with Berard signing with Calgary. The Broons if they hit on Bergeron and Zinovjev will be able to move some of the Huml, Hilbert, Morrisonn maybe Samuelsson in right package for a package like a Kobasaw and Gauthier.
Getting Kobasew and Gauthier would be fantastic. I still think Kobasew is going to come a long way and be a heckuva player. Also I think you will find Gauthier to have above average mobility. Yes, he is a big hitter, but he is not a slug out there by any means. His real problem is taking bad penalties, but I like his style. I would glady give up Morrissonn, Huml and a second for those two....maybe even somehing else.

Imagine going into the playoffs and all of the sudden the Bruins are a lineup with guys like Lapointe, Green, Gauthier, OD, Boynton, McCarthy, Thornton and the rest ready to go to war? I like the idea of it!

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10-25-2003, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruwinz20
Getting Kobasew and Gauthier would be fantastic. I still think Kobasew is going to come a long way and be a heckuva player. Also I think you will find Gauthier to have above average mobility. Yes, he is a big hitter, but he is not a slug out there by any means. His real problem is taking bad penalties, but I like his style. I would glady give up Morrissonn, Huml and a second for those two....maybe even somehing else.

Imagine going into the playoffs and all of the sudden the Bruins are a lineup with guys like Lapointe, Green, Gauthier, OD, Boynton, McCarthy, Thornton and the rest ready to go to war? I like the idea of it!
Here's my Michael Karlstrom/Taz deal- Morrisonn, Hilbert and another prospect along the lines of Huml for Kobasaw and Gauthier.

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10-25-2003, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruwinz20
Is reportedly on the trading block per RDS Canada.

Man would I like to have this guy as our #6 instead of Moran. I wonder what Calgary woud want in return for him?

This is the exact type of guy the Bruins should look for in a deal. Young, pretty talented, ferocious hitter, mean as hell and inexpensive. If I am MOC I make that call, and make a deal if it is within reason. He gives our D that element that every D needs....a big time hitter. I know he tends to take some dumb penalties, but he was playing 20 mins + a game last year and is a good player. The Bruins have assets (Hilbert?) or picks (extra second rounder) to make a deal like this. I hope we at least inquire.
I've done this before, but I thought I should say it again:

Denis Gauthier is a useful player. However, I think many people do not understand Denis, particularly if you read people from other teams describe him. Let me fill you in on some facts about Denis, then some of my opinions:

Salary (via NHLPA): $1,300,000 million per annum
Average Time on Ice (so far this year): 17:33
Offensive output: Slim to none

My opinion on Gauthier:

Denis is a fine bottom pairing defenseman, but do not expect him to play 20 minutes a night without seeing some severe mistakes in his own zone. Denis, I feel, is more of a 15 - 17 minute man on most decent bluelines in this league. Obviously he can hit. HUGE hits. Very physical, can clear the crease, and Denis is actually underrated in that he can agitate. However, again, I must reiterate - Denis makes mistakes in his own zone with a good deal of frequency. He will offer nothing offensivly, although he can be decent on the PK.

In my mind, Gauthier is quite comparable to Don Sweeney.

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10-25-2003, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I've done this before, but I thought I should say it again:

Denis Gauthier is a useful player. However, I think many people do not understand Denis, particularly if you read people from other teams describe him. Let me fill you in on some facts about Denis, then some of my opinions:

Salary (via NHLPA): $1,300,000 million per annum
Average Time on Ice (so far this year): 17:33
Offensive output: Slim to none

My opinion on Gauthier:

Denis is a fine bottom pairing defenseman, but do not expect him to play 20 minutes a night without seeing some severe mistakes in his own zone. Denis, I feel, is more of a 15 - 17 minute man on most decent bluelines in this league. Obviously he can hit. HUGE hits. Very physical, can clear the crease, and Denis is actually underrated in that he can agitate. However, again, I must reiterate - Denis makes mistakes in his own zone with a good deal of frequency. He will offer nothing offensivly, although he can be decent on the PK.

In my mind, Gauthier is quite comparable to Don Sweeney.
Although Gauthier sounds more sizzle than steak- Sweeney was very intelligent player and fundamentally sound. He was undersized by today's behemoths and his game would have been all the better 10 years earlier than he arrived. I don't see Gauthier as a top 4 myself but a PK and Colin White type of guy. Kobasaw is the guy I have heard MOC likes. Now that was alteast last year and I have heard nothing since. Also, Toni Lydman is the type of player I think MOC wants.

MOC seems to enjoy dealing or certainly not afraid and if the Broons hit on Zinovjev and Bergeron they have some serious flexability with dealing multiple decent prospects for guys like these.

I'd like to see the Broons grab both defenseman.

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10-25-2003, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKH
Although Gauthier sounds more sizzle than steak- Sweeney was very intelligent player and fundamentally sound. He was undersized by today's behemoths and his game would have been all the better 10 years earlier than he arrived. I don't see Gauthier as a top 4 myself but a PK and Colin White type of guy. Kobasaw is the guy I have heard MOC likes. Now that was alteast last year and I have heard nothing since. Also, Toni Lydman is the type of player I think MOC wants.

MOC seems to enjoy dealing or certainly not afraid and if the Broons hit on Zinovjev and Bergeron they have some serious flexability with dealing multiple decent prospects for guys like these.

I'd like to see the Broons grab both defenseman.
Well, Sweeney nowadays doesn't seem to fundamentally sound as he might have been in the past. I saw him play for the Stars recently, he was out of position a few times..

Colin White is a good comparison in style, but Gauthier is less talented than White is.

Kobasew is highly thought of in Calgary. Would certainly cost a highly expensive player to get him off of the Flames. Perhaps Raycroft or a good goal scorer.

Lydman, again, another highly thought of player. He's well liked in Calgary and I suspect he would cost another significant player.

If I was the Flames, looking for a defenseman to pick up, I'd give the Sharks a call about impeding UFA, Mike Rathje.

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10-25-2003, 11:16 AM
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I've seen a ton of Denis Gauthier over the years too... I really like him for his hitting but he isn't really all that solid defensively.

I am not sure I would compare him to Don Sweeney at all as Don in his prime never sacraficed positioning to go after the big hit. I think Don's slip in play in more recent years is more due to his advancing age and the fact he played every day of his career challanged for size and always had to be at peak physical shape to compensate.

I like the Colin White comparison but another comparison might be Darius Kasperitis.

Gauthier really loves to hit and hit big. If he has his head in the game he is possible to make the right decisions and look amazing. Watching his huge hits makes all of us fans of physical hockey drool over imagining him in our team's uniform.

If he doesn't have his head in the game and he wanders off to indulge his own interests at the expense of making the smarter less spectacular move than too often he is the one the analyst point too after the goal as the guy who was out of position on the play.

Final analysis... I guess I'd like him on the Bruins even understanding his liabilities. I love big hitters and I always feel some proper coaching and a chance to be on a winning team can make these guys useful. Kasperitis has had useful seasons in the NHL on cup competitive teams. Colin White is a big part of the Devils team. Kyle McLaren had some solid seasons for us. Vishneveski was a valuable part of the Duck's blueline last year.

To varying degrees these guys all sort of fall victim to Gauthier's main weakness here and all tend to play the game somewhat similar to him. Gauthier has a good reputation for his locker room presence.

As to what Calgary would want for him, think immediate offensive help. We can probably forget Kobasew. I know it's hard as I love the kid too... but he is young, cheap, and has near-ready offensive potential... exactly what Calgary is needing.

The type of deal Calgary might be interested in is some sort of package deal involving a guy like Samsonov. He is expensive so Calgary would want to give us salary back in the deal. Maybe something like Gauthier, Conroy, Calgary first rounder for Samsonov and Moran would be a Calgary opener.

Of course I would imagine Boston laughing at the proposal even if the first was a chance at first overall this year and Conroy might be willing to do a sign and trade.

I think Boston would counter propose sending Knuble back for Gauthier if we were really serious we needed Gauthier. The deal would have to involve Knuble being willing to sign an extension. I sort of feel Knuble has slightly more trade value than Gauthier does coming off his looking like a 30 goal scorer at the moment.

One guy Calgary has who I was always high on but who Calgary might be thinging of giving up on is Oleg Saprykin. He is finally starting to look like he might work out as a second liner but it's looking less and less likely he will ever be a major scorer. His defense/work ethic don't seem to really be there to make him a major asset if he isn't scoring.

If he doesn't continue to get better it might be useless to take him but I always did like him and think he could flurish with a little more training and a change of scenery.

I guess I would try to use him to balance my deal... call it Gauthier and Saprykin for Knuble [signed at around 3 years or so at around 2 mill per year if he is willing to take the security] and a mid round pick [maybe a 3rd?]

The Flame fans are in near revolt... even with their strong start this year most of the local sports talk I have been listening to is filled with nothing but complaints about the team.

If the team does make any early season moves expect them all to be for immediate help. There is no more planning for the future with a team that has missed the playoffs this many years in a row.

 
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10-25-2003, 11:33 AM
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I would throw up all over the floor if the Broons traded Samsonov and secondaries for Conroy and Gauthier. Samsonov is a homerun hitter- he's young and is immensely popular in this region.

As for Kobasaw, I'm not saying he's even remotely available; but MOC supposedly coveted him- and I got this from a guy I've known for years who works in Big East and works for NHL Western Conference team (not Calgary); he told me the switch of picks for Guerin cost MOC Kobasaw in his opinion. Now there are plenty of other stories that go around and Kirk no doubt knows better than me- just something I was told. He was trying like a bat outa hell to move up that day. They ended up I think with Morrisonn but not sure. Also, if the Broons hit on Zino and Bergeron- and to be honest they WILL its just now or next year or year after. I am suggesting that the Broons would have some flexability to piggy back a couple or three good to very good prospects for one player.

If you end up with two cheap and young players with offensive games like these two kids you now have extra cash, less available room for the offensive type players like Huml and Hilbert specifically and can do a package. You would think that even if Girard is finished which I wouldn't be so sure that its statistically likely that one of Jurcina, Morrisonn or Jonsson will be playing in the top 6 rotation next year. Again, they can move a Morrisonn in the right deal for them. Stictly speculating based on the information infront of me- and the Broons could use a young scoring RW in the next year or so.

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10-25-2003, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruwinz20
Is reportedly on the trading block per RDS Canada.

Man would I like to have this guy as our #6 instead of Moran. I wonder what Calgary woud want in return for him?

This is the exact type of guy the Bruins should look for in a deal. Young, pretty talented, ferocious hitter, mean as hell and inexpensive. If I am MOC I make that call, and make a deal if it is within reason. He gives our D that element that every D needs....a big time hitter. I know he tends to take some dumb penalties, but he was playing 20 mins + a game last year and is a good player. The Bruins have assets (Hilbert?) or picks (extra second rounder) to make a deal like this. I hope we at least inquire.
given how moran has played thus far this season i would rather use gauthier to replace o'donnell. moran has played well. o'donnell on the other hand looks slow and is having a hard time getting the puck out his own end. He is not the physical presence he once was in the past.

the thing about gauthier....expect penalties. the kill has been improving but the last thing we need is to give it more opportunities to break down....

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10-25-2003, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostboy_77
given how moran has played thus far this season i would rather use gauthier to replace o'donnell. moran has played well. o'donnell on the other hand looks slow and is having a hard time getting the puck out his own end. He is not the physical presence he once was in the past.

the thing about gauthier....expect penalties. the kill has been improving but the last thing we need is to give it more opportunities to break down....
I still cant figure out why people dont appreciate OD and what he does. I guess expectations are a bit off. IMO Moran is seeing too much ice time, but he does make up for his lack of skill with hustle and leadership. I dont hate him on the team by any means, but adding a guy like Gauthier makes the team meaner and makes other teams skate with their heads up. I think Gauthier would do much better with Boston's supporting cast than in Calgary.

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10-25-2003, 02:00 PM
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Berard

I'd be happy with dumping Moran and signing Berard to play limited minutes, but gets the PP and overall offense going.

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10-25-2003, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Karlstrom II
The type of deal Calgary might be interested in is some sort of package deal involving a guy like Samsonov. He is expensive so Calgary would want to give us salary back in the deal. Maybe something like Gauthier, Conroy, Calgary first rounder for Samsonov and Moran would be a Calgary opener.

Of course I would imagine Boston laughing at the proposal even if the first was a chance at first overall this year and Conroy might be willing to do a sign and trade.
I'm really not sure Calgary would bite on that, even without the first.

Clearly Gauthier > Moran.

However, I'm sure Calgary fans would argue Conroy versus Samsonov. For me, I consider it about a wash. Conroy is a solid two-way player with all sorts of intangibles. Samsonov is more of a straight-away offensive presence. If I was the Flames, I would not swap Conroy for Samsonov though, only due to the fact that the Flames DESPERATLY need leadership, wherever they can find it. Conroy is one of the few on their roster that provides accountability for other players. Though he's not doing too great to start the season, I'd be shocked if Conroy put up less than 55 points this season.

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10-25-2003, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I'm really not sure Calgary would bite on that, even without the first.

Clearly Gauthier > Moran.

However, I'm sure Calgary fans would argue Conroy versus Samsonov. For me, I consider it about a wash. Conroy is a solid two-way player with all sorts of intangibles. Samsonov is more of a straight-away offensive presence. If I was the Flames, I would not swap Conroy for Samsonov though, only due to the fact that the Flames DESPERATLY need leadership, wherever they can find it. Conroy is one of the few on their roster that provides accountability for other players. Though he's not doing too great to start the season, I'd be shocked if Conroy put up less than 55 points this season.
I am a Craig Conroy, but if your reasoning is he's a relative, has leadership, owes you money, or has pictures for not trading thats one thing. Conroy has had one very good year, all others are middling. The NHL has had many players from Bobby Carpenter to Jacques Richard that has had one off the wall year and never approached it or even sniffed it. Samsonov is still under 25 and last year the Hockey News the week he got hurt wrote an article saying pound for pound he may be the best player in the world. They said he is one of the handful of exciting players in the game and cited his work ethic as well. They wrote it not me or Aceyalone. If you think a solid Dave Scathcard/Steve Konowalchuk type of guy that Conroy is has same value I wish you were the GM of team taking a MOC phone call.

As for Sweeney, I don't know your age but if you saw Sweeney back in the early 90's you would have seen a guy who could skate as well as any defenseman not named Coffey or Housely; hit as hard as anyone, and make consistent intelligent decisions. Listen to Ray Bourque sometime when Sweeney's name comes up. If you judge Sweeney's game now its like one of my kids seeing Brett Hull two weeks ago at the Fleece exhibition game and saying, "that guy scored over 70 goals, he can hardly skate"....well, we all unfortunately get old and Sweeney is no different.

Keep posting here though- I enjoy your insights even if I disagree

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10-25-2003, 08:22 PM
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UGHHH!

Mizral I really hate for the most part responding to particular posts directing any comments to the poster cause so often it is impossible to keep what is being said from sounding personal. Please let me thus take a moment before I do this to state that I like reading your posts and usually seek them out cause I do believe you are a very passionate fan who tries to post from a love for the game.

I have read enough of your posts to believe you probably know the Canucks very well. It is always easier to know the team we cheer for. I won't take offense if a fan of another team maybe doesn't know the Bruins as well as some of us freaks here who have watched every game the team has played over the last 5-10-15 years.

The problem I have here is statements like Calgary wouldn't trade Conroy for Samsonov.

In his last three full seasons Sammy has played 233 games scored 77 goals and added 113 assists.

Most pro pool guidelines will look at a player's three year history as a valid indicator what to expect from a guy year in year out.

Sammy at age 23 is a PROVEN 25 goal/35 assist guy based just on the pure numbers.

If you go through the NHL and look at how many players have more than the 190 points Sammy has over their last 3 seasons you are only going to come up with around 30 or so names if I remember correctly [I actually did take the time to do the study... over the last two years Sammy actually jumps up into like the top 10-15]

Now, someone who hasn't actually watched the Bruins play every game the last 3 years might try to argue that Sammy lived off being a linemate of Joe or Jason or Billy... or that he padded his points with a ton of powerplay time.

Reality is that Sammy outscored Jason and Billy during even strength situations when the three were a line... indicating he was actually the one generating the points for the line and was padding their totals. He was constantly used on the second powerplay unit. He got stuck with Kovalenko for his main linemate for the better part of an entire season.

Sammy is a world class offensive generator. It might be fair to argue he doesn't get the results that someone who creates the chances he does should get. I think finding a linemate that complements him would be helpful if Sammy is going to win any scoring titles...

One has to keep in mind his age. It is easy to say he won't ever get any better than he is now since he has been in the league 7 seasons now... he was born in 78 though. He is only just turning 25 this week.

Markus Naslund never scored more than 21 goals in a season before he was 25. Todd Bertuzzi had only 1 season with more than 40 points by age 25. Brendon Morrisson had just one season over 50 points at age 25.

Players do often still have upside even at age 25. More so when they have that one part of the game they need to work on or found themselves in situations earlier in their careers where they were being held back.

Sammy will always be small. Some coaches will always feel this is a reason to hold him back. He always had guys like Thornton/Allison/Murray/Guerin/Carter around who were big and strong who took the majority of the available prime offensive opportunities on the team.

You really should watch the team every game if you want to propose yourself as the definitive expert or you are going to put your foot in it.

I like Conroy. I don't think there is a bigger fan of Conroy that I have seen here on the Bruin boards than DKH [I guess Taz finds a way to get Conroy into a few trade proposals too] One way or the other though we all are very high on Conroy.

If Conroy was to end up in Boston I would be pretty happy. He is what he is though... 32 years old in September... headed to UFA. Twice in his life he has managed more than 15 goals...twice he has more than 30 assists. There are NO players who improve after the age 0f 32. What we see with Conroy is what we get.

He currently plays with a guy widely considered to be as good of a young power forward as there is in the NHL. I would suggest one reason for the point boost the last two seasons might be getting a few cheap assists from Jarome's abilities.

Conroy has always taken tremendous critism for disappearing at playoff time, In 36 games he has 3 goals and 5 assists.

Numbers aren't all of Conroys games... and some numbers do flatter him. He is a very good faceoff guy. He has been a cadidate for Selke consideration. I am not going to take any slams at Conroy if I can avoid it here.

I will freak out if anyone suggests that 4 Conroys given the real circumstances are worth one Samsonov.

Even if Conroy is signed he is a second liner at best. Any team using him on the first line is going to be a non-playoff team. A legit team would view Conroy as a third liner. Cliff Ronning is a legit third liner. Todd Marchant is a legit third liner. Mike Ricci is a legit third liner. Brian Rolston is a legit third liner.

Teams that need to play these guys above third line responsibility have a problem.

Ok... I don't watch every Calgary game. I probably haven't seen Conroy play more than 30 games total over the last 3 years and if I factor in that I probably watched more than one game at a time a few of those nights I can't say I am the ultimate expert on Conroy.

Maybe he knows a pass or a particular stick check I have missed... but he isn't a physical player. He isn't a shooter. He is a good man-to-man defensive specialist who has some very good skating ability and is able to handle the puck and make the smart play more often than not.

In my Sammy to Calgary proposal I was really thinking that the trade would be for the first. Boston would consider this a step backwards. We view Sammy as pretty much being the equal of Hossa

Hossa 386 games 152 goals 156 assists 308 points
Samsonov 401 games 129 goals 170 assists 299 points

{numbers very comparable but wait...]

Both players have one lost season... Sammy lost his at the height of his career while Hossa lost his as a 18 year old rookie.

Taking away both last season when Sammy couldn't play and year one when Hossa didn't play and the numbers become

Hossa 299 games 107 goals 120 assists 227 points
Samsonov 312 games 102 goals 139 assists 241 points

I don't watch Hossa enough to be an authority on his defensive game or his overal physical combativeness. I don't know if he makes his linemates or benefits from them... if the PP favors him or works against him.

I will say that Sammy scores with Hossa for the most part here when one actually looks at the numbers for what they say. Sammy is as good of an offensive young talent in the game as there is and anyone who watches him play regularly becomes awed at his ability to generate more chances, by himself strictly on his own moves, this side of Pavel Bure.

I am guilty of mentioning Sammy in a few trade proposals... I suppose to some this might seem like I don't appreciate the guy. Honestly I do. If we do trade him I will want a truckload of return. We will get a truckload of return if we do move him. We will get alot more than Criag Conroy to be sure.

 
Old
10-25-2003, 08:53 PM
  #16
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Wow, guys. Too much to digest here for a Flames fan.

Gauthier: I agree with the descriptions of him in this thread. Accurate comments all around. But I'm not so sure Darryl Sutter would trade him. With a team that has trouble finding his emotion sometimes, Gauthier's role is heightened by the fact his big hits can generate some energy and get the fans in the game.

Conroy: There have been whispers in Calgary that Conroy is not a Sutter player. No one here expected him to be captain again this season under Darryl Sutter. Whether his passing the 'C' to Iggy was really his idea as publicly reported is not so clear to me.

Kobesew: Not on the market. Sutter commented when he first got here that one the Flames' main problems in the recent past was trading away young talent (Giguere, St. Louis). I can't see Sutter going down that road.

Saprykin: On the other hand, lol, I could see Saprykin traded. He sat out tonight for lacking emotion. He's got skills and he's an agitator. Not a bad player, but I don't think he's a Darryl Sutter player. He could be had in the right deal, I think.

Andrew Ference is another defenseman who Sutter has benched lately, although most fans have been impressed with his play in general save some giveaways. But is he a Sutter player? Not sure.

When talking trade with the Flames, keep two things in mind:
1) We need scoring forwards, namely wingers
2) Any player traded for will be a Darryl Sutter hockey player. I.e. someone who will show emotion night in, night out. Soft Europeans are frowned upon. Sutter has a fetish for Western Canadian boys it seems (but there are only so many Jarome Iginlas in the league).

BTW, Calgary would be dumb to pass up on any chance to get Samsonov (for the second time), but Mizral might be right... is he a Sutter player? Possibly not.

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10-25-2003, 09:10 PM
  #17
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Karlstrom & DKH - I both often seek out your posts. I enjoy chatting with B's fans. I try to watch as many B's games as I can get on the tube - lucky for me, TSN is showing a large amount of them, particularly in the first two months of the season (very peculiar). So far, I've seen the Bruins play twice. Once against Colorado & once against Dallas, both top notch teams.

I'll get right to the point, judging Samsonov.

I am not the hugest Samsonov fan. While statistics proove your side of the arguement well, I would say that there is something else you are not factoring in. I don't think many folks at HF often talk about this, but many of them know it's there.

Big players and small players develop very differently. Usually, bigger players (such as Thornton) take a few years to develop. Mind you, phenomenal talents like Kovalchuk can bust open right away, they are the exception to the rule. As you can tell, Thornton is still very talented, and only took a year. Bertuzzi is very talented, and took much longer, mind you before he broke out.

So it's not an exact science for big players.

However, it's slightly more exact for smaller players. Small players, in general, come into the NHL and are able to play very well their first couple of seasons. Two things happen after that. A) They get keyed on physically and start dropping in points, or B) they level off after around year three.

I believe Samsonov is in this category. No doubt 90% of this board will disagree with me (probobly more!), however I'm quite sure if you asked some folks who follow prospects as much as some of the more 'hardcore' of us here, they will notice similar trends in similar players. Not saying Samsonov is FOR SURE going to top out, just saying I don't have any money on him becoming a 40 goal scorer anytime soon.

I'll give you a few examples of players that I'm talking about, that are similar to Samsonov (small but skilled), and have big roles on their team:

Career highs in points:

Paul Kariya: Season 2 - 108 points in 82 games
Joe Nieuwendyk: Season 3 - 95 points in 79 games
Zigmund Palffy: Season 3 - 90 points in 80 games
Chris Drury: Season 2 - 67 points in 82 games

I would attribute this to many, many other players. They follow similar molds.

I don't really feel Samsonov will become much better statistically, but could be a lot better overall over the years.

As for Conroy, well his past isn't as illustrious, simply because the Blues didn't use him as a top 6 forward. Conroy was almost always on the 3rd or 4th lines, and never really gelled with all that many players. When he was sent to Calgary, he immediatly gelled with Iginla & McAmmond, and ended up getting top line minutes, and responded with a 75 point effort in 81 games. Yes, Iginla muscles much of that, but I believe Conroy with any decent wingers would still put up at least 55 points. Conroy had an 'off year' last year, and put up 59 points in 79 games.

So then you've gotta ask yourself. What's more valuable? A 75 point offensive sparkplug, or a 60 - 70 point two-way man who provides much needed intangibles & leadership?

If you think Samsonov is going to put up 100 points someday, I can understand you thinking it's a fools errand to even argue this with me. But honestly, I just don't see Sergei putting up massive numbers (90 - 100), even if he plays with Joe Thornton.

EDIT: Also, as icarus astutely pointed out, Samsonov I do not think would be Daryll Sutter's favorite player. It took years for Sutter to like Marco Sturm, but Marco is one of the hardest workers in the league (not that Samsonov is lazy, but Sturm is just BEYOND tenacious), and is also becoming one of the better two way players (Samsonov is below-average in his own zone). Just another reason I think Sutter would probobly hold onto Conroy.

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10-25-2003, 11:09 PM
  #18
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To be fair taking the Sutter factor into account will often skew any other rational a fan might try to project into a realistic understanding of the possibilities involved.

I never really know who is or isn't a Sutter player or a Keenen player or even a Burns' player.

We always assume that these type of tough coaches usually like tough players. Then we see exceptions that prove the rule that usually even the most irrational coach will generally like a player whom they can respect off the ice and whom they can count on while on the ice.

I will never get over my shock of Mike Keenen wanting to run Brenden Shanahan out of St Louis way back when.

Pat Burns disinterest in PJ Axelsson and Mike Keenens love affair with Jarno Kultanen were big misterys to me as well.

I think one factor that led to the short stay of Chris Drury in Calgary was Sutter's opinion of him... and to me Drury is a far more complete player than Samsonov ever has a hope of being.

That all said... there is a very huge following of a certain principal when it comes to NHL trades and it goes something like whatever side gets the best player automatically win's the trade.

I am not sure I am a religious nut when it comes to this idea but I put some stock to the notion that true talent can always be moved again even if it doesn't fit your package. I also am a firm believer in the one in the hand equals at least two in the bush.

For every Jokinen or Jovanovski or Diepietro or Louongo success story we can point to with high draft picks there are a Jokinen and a Jovanovski and a Pronger and a Louongo story where even the best draft picks often don't help the team they go to for at least 3-4 years at any sort of high level.

The NHL is a changing landscape. Kids like Heatley, Gaborik, Hossa, Brewer who are like 25 and under and who are still signed for like under 5 mill a season and who have shown they can be front line players are really pretty much worth more now than they have ever been before.

Projections can get pretty scarry wondering what it might be like to get under a 35 million dollar salary cap.

In the NFL we see all-pros getting released outright from SuperBowl champs every year now do to cap issues.

When we fans discuss any young player's trade value for this season we are going to have to keep the CBA in mind if we want to be more accurate with our thoughts. Never before has salary played such an overriding factor even with teams like New York and Philadelphia regarding just how much extra committment they are willing to carry.

Anyhow... the thread started off about Gauthier. I really like him as a player. If we could add him and dump O'Donnell I would do it just because I think ultimately they both bring about the same amount of value to the table. Gauthier is younger and cheaper. OD is probably the better fighter and more stable defender when he's playing his A game.

If Calgary got really stupid and let Gauthier go for prospects... other than Toivenen and Stuart... and I guess Morrisonn,there isn't a single Bruin prospect not currently on the big team that I wouldn't be willing to move 1-for-1 for Gauthier. He's only a 5-6 dman but he is a very good and exciting 5-6 dman who can help a team immediately and can continue to help over the next several seasons.

I like Conroy... I love Kobasew bit time. Of course I would freak if we could land Iginla [mmmmm TIM line... Thornton/Iginla/Murray... talk about raw power.]

I don't like Lydman at all... can't see a spot for him with Jonsson on his way in a year or two. Don't really think we need a soft dman with no success turning offensive skill to points and too prone to taking shifts off.

Ferrence is waiver wire material at best. It would be a debate to me if he or Moran is the bigger waste of space on a team's roster. At least Moran seems to be a servicable 4th line winger if needed.

Regher is mouth-watering yummy but Calgary realizes this too. Warrener is affordable and useful... he isn't prone to be moved... and Leopold is the great west hope.

Man I wish we had been the ones to land Boughner.

Any move to land a 1.5-2 mill a year type physical type 5-6 dman which would then allow us to move OD would be ok by me. Get rid of O'Donnell's near 3 mill a year contract and we free up alot of the contract room that could be better spent on another year from Berard...or making a late season rental of a guy like Carney or Zhitnik to eat playoff minutes.

On a pure trapping team where the play gets carefully shutted at OD and he has 3 forwards coming back to help him I actually think he could be pretty damn good. Gill too... on the B's we see too often that when goals go in invaribly one of these guys was caught slow footed on the play.

To me it's all about right guy in the right situation and it isn't an exact science. In another thread here I argued support to the idea of trying guys like Jagr and Zhamnov on the team. Could the move really backfire? Heck yeah...

could it be magic... maybe.

Hard to tell till you see it in action.

1996 the Bruins acquire Kevin Stevens and Al Iafrate to join Bourque/Oates/Neely for a run at the cup.

I slobber silly imagining what a PP will look like with Bourque pinning the puck down... feeding Oates who plays interferece with Neely before dropping it back for an Iafrate Howitzer. Stevens is crashing the net and scoops the rebound for another quick flip back to Bourque who rifles one pinpoint for the corner of the net only to have Neely make one of the greatest hand/eye redirects ever for the perfect goal.

Should have been one hell of a PP that year. Things never did work out and before the season was over Boston had the worst record in the NHL.

Trades can be a fickle thing.

I'd still like Gauther here. My first instinct is still to imagine Mike Knuble as the guy likely of interest to Calgary as part of the deal. Figure there being some sort of prerequist that Knuble agree to an extension on his contract and add in some sort of secondary considerations that favor Boston a little and I think the deal reads fair to me.

 
Old
10-26-2003, 01:35 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I'm really not sure Calgary would bite on that, even without the first.

Clearly Gauthier > Moran.

However, I'm sure Calgary fans would argue Conroy versus Samsonov. For me, I consider it about a wash. Conroy is a solid two-way player with all sorts of intangibles. Samsonov is more of a straight-away offensive presence. If I was the Flames, I would not swap Conroy for Samsonov though, only due to the fact that the Flames DESPERATLY need leadership, wherever they can find it. Conroy is one of the few on their roster that provides accountability for other players. Though he's not doing too great to start the season, I'd be shocked if Conroy put up less than 55 points this season.
Wow, this amazes me. You are saying that in your mind Samsonov for Conroy is a wash? Conroy is a decent player and I agree he has intangibles, but he's a pending UFA. Samsonov is a dynamic offensive player under 25 who's only improving. I think if you took a poll on the HF Trade board about which player has the higher value, you'd find a majority says Samsonov. Heck, if you could reach them, you'd probably find the same thing among NHL experts. In the end, that says one of two things, either your hockey knowledge is leaving something to be desired, or your prejudice against Samsonov is blinding you.

As far as your judgments on Samsonov, I am not one to believe that Samsonov is a 100pt man, but I can offer a few other insights. First, it's tough to judge scoring trends over these last few years because goalscoring has generally been down. This year is even worse than last year, with 40 goals today being like 60 seven years ago. Either way, I think 35 goals is not unreasonable at all for Samsonov. So far he's yet to hit 30, but he's had 29 twice. Contrary to your views, I think there's still room to grow. if he has good linemates.

I think your assumptions about his offensive potential are missing the mark. First, if defensemen want to "key" in on him and ultimately neutralize him, they have to tie him up along the boards or negate his passes. Neither is easy to accomplish because he's not exactly weak on his skates and he's so clever and unpredictable. In other words, defensemen have a hard time figuring out what he's gonna do. The only other option to nuetralize him is to keep up with him stride for stride, which few in the NHL can do because they don't have his quickness and low center of gravity. Unless he has ineffective linemates, he should continue to be a force.

My belief is that he could be a top-20 scorer. Whether that translates into 40 goals or 100 points is less important because it will not reflect his true effectiveness in the league. If Samsonov has consistent and decent linemates, getting 35 goals and 80 points shouldn't be a stretch. This is a guy who's had about a 15% shooting average each season, and one of the best in the league at coming off the boards. When he's playing 1-1, he can leave defensemen in their skates. Combined with his stick handling, skating, passing and shooting abilities, he can really open up the ice and create some offense. More than that, I believe he is only going to get better because he's a hard worker and he's driven to excel, part of that coming from the influence of his dad.

At the same time, I don't want to make it sound like I believe Samsonov has the kind of pure game-breaking ability that Pavel Bure did in his prime. I don't think Samsonov is that type of player, but I do think Sergei is one of the most creative players in the league and that he's very difficult to contain. As far as his scoring prowess, I think Samsonov is a little better at playmaking than scoring, partly because he can use his low center of gravity and quick 1-1 skills to deke defensemen and create prime scoring opportunities. He's exceptionally deft with the puck and can stick handle in a phone booth. Most of his goals come as the result of his quickness and maneuvering, as opposed to being a pure shooter like Glen Murray. In other words, instead of relying on offing a one-timer for his offense, he creates breakdowns and scoring opportunities by causing havoc with his quickness, stick-handling and skill. But make no mistake about it, Sammie also has a good wrister and he can snipe pretty well, especially in close.

I think the trick with Samsonov is to have the right expectations. Like I said, I don't think he's a pure game breaker, but matched with the right linemates, he can be a dynamic force that creates numerous scoring opportunities. I think he's only getting better because he works hard and is driven, not to mention that he's very difficult to defend against. Everyone has their opinion, but all homer-ism aside, I'm not really sure where your pessimistic view about him is coming from.

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10-26-2003, 02:05 AM
  #20
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"Samsonov for Conroy is a wash"

People will come out to see a guy like Samsonov play!
People don't even know who a guy like Conroy is!

While I would love to have Conroy on the B's, he is what he is a good NHL hockey player...but he is not special in the way Samsonov is.

I don't care about points..or stats..Sammy can do stuff that sells tickets!..brings one out of your seat.

While I say one "could maybe" argue that a guy like Conroy might give you possibly more wins than say Samsonov (in how each add to their teams).
...but no way anyone (on even ground) trades a young talent like Samsonov for a vet like Conroy...well unless you Iron Mike maybe...hehehe!

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10-26-2003, 04:12 AM
  #21
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Moran is useful but he shouldn't be playing big minutes. We need another defenseman, but I don't think Gauthier or Berard are the answer. It seems like their pluses are often outweighed by their minuses.

Ideally we'd get somebody like old buddy Kyle Mclaren: tough and mobile. Of course, those types are highly coveted.

MOC wants to avoid over-paying and will probably bide his time until the right opportunity pops up. We may not get another d-man until some of the teams are out of contention...

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10-26-2003, 07:16 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBruinmaker
Wow, this amazes me. You are saying that in your mind Samsonov for Conroy is a wash? Conroy is a decent player and I agree he has intangibles, but he's a pending UFA. Samsonov is a dynamic offensive player under 25 who's only improving. I think if you took a poll on the HF Trade board about which player has the higher value, you'd find a majority says Samsonov. Heck, if you could reach them, you'd probably find the same thing among NHL experts. In the end, that says one of two things, either your hockey knowledge is leaving something to be desired, or your prejudice against Samsonov is blinding you.
But you're not biased?

Conroy is more than a 'decent' player. And if you read my second post on this thread (or was it third?), I explained how I feel Samsonov will not be improving all that much statistically.

Yeah, and if you put a poll up a couple weeks ago, people would have said there's no way Mariusz Czerkawski puts up 6 goals in 7 games or whatever he's got now. Besides, what does it matter what the 'value' is? It's all relative to Calgary. What does Calgary need more - Conroy or Samsonov?

Quote:
As far as your judgments on Samsonov, I am not one to believe that Samsonov is a 100pt man, but I can offer a few other insights. First, it's tough to judge scoring trends over these last few years because goalscoring has generally been down. This year is even worse than last year, with 40 goals today being like 60 seven years ago. Either way, I think 35 goals is not unreasonable at all for Samsonov. So far he's yet to hit 30, but he's had 29 twice. Contrary to your views, I think there's still room to grow. if he has good linemates.
I respectfully disagree.

Quote:
My belief is that he could be a top-20 scorer. Whether that translates into 40 goals or 100 points is less important because it will not reflect his true effectiveness in the league. If Samsonov has consistent and decent linemates, getting 35 goals and 80 points shouldn't be a stretch. This is a guy who's had about a 15% shooting average each season, and one of the best in the league at coming off the boards. When he's playing 1-1, he can leave defensemen in their skates. Combined with his stick handling, skating, passing and shooting abilities, he can really open up the ice and create some offense. More than that, I believe he is only going to get better because he's a hard worker and he's driven to excel, part of that coming from the influence of his dad.
See, the funny thing is - Craig Conroy has already been a top-20 scorer. In fact, he was a top 15 scorer just a couple seasons ago. Conroy CAN score, and he's quite an adept playmaker. He may not be as glamourous as Samsonov, but he gets it done with similar effectiveness.

There is no doubt Samsonov is the more talented player offensivly, but after that, there is really nothing Samsonov has on Conroy. This is why I think the Flames would prefer Craig. You've got two players here who are likely going to finish inside 15 points of each other, but Conroy has all these intagibles that Calgary really needs, and he gells with Conroy. That's huge!

Quote:
I think the trick with Samsonov is to have the right expectations. Like I said, I don't think he's a pure game breaker, but matched with the right linemates, he can be a dynamic force that creates numerous scoring opportunities. I think he's only getting better because he works hard and is driven, not to mention that he's very difficult to defend against. Everyone has their opinion, but all homer-ism aside, I'm not really sure where your pessimistic view about him is coming from.
I don't think it's pessimism at all. Samsonov as he is, is a pretty darn good player. I just don't see all that much room for offensive growth in his game at the moment.

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10-26-2003, 07:23 AM
  #23
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I'm surprised to see a Boston fan suggest a package deal with Gauthier for Samsonov, but in all reality, most B's fans and most definetely management would not bite on that sort of thing, unless a big contributor on their team went down with a career-threatening injury.

I don't expect Conroy to fetch Samsonov, that's asking alot. But I think Mizral is right; Conroy is the type of player the Flames need to have around. He is the epidomal Calgary Flame - Sutter mark. If we could get Samsonov, great, but as much as I'd love his offensive, we'd have zero leadership coming from the front lines, and Dave Lowry or Jarome Iginla just don't cut the mustard right now. Emotion has been lacking, and we need emotional players to move our team forward. I don't know if Sammy plays an emotional game, but Conroy can and does, leading by example more often than not.

As for Kobasew, I think he's about as untradeable as Boynton is. Just doesn't make sense for Calgary to flip him, especially when the Flames management has invested so much into him the last couple years.

Finally, I just don't think a package of Morrisson, Hilbert, and / or Huml would be sufficient. We don't need anymore defensive prospects clogging our system - we have Commodore, Wallin, and Montador to do that for us. Hilbert is an intriguing player, but I just don't think he has the talent to elevate his game to where the Flames would need him to be. Huml is too one-dimensional, and would fight with Saprykin for ice time on the left side.

If Boston was prepare to take a package of, say, Gauthier and Gelinas for Rolston, then I'm all for it. Until then, however, I don't think these two teams make great trading partners.

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10-26-2003, 07:28 AM
  #24
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Something most of us (don't think anyone has mentioned it) have forgotten (myself included) is that Craig Conroy will be a UFA after this year. This would probobly mean value wise, Samsonov is clearly ahead of him.

Anyways, my arguement still stands in terms of on-ice effectiveness.

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10-26-2003, 08:46 AM
  #25
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Samsonov is the most entertaining player the Bruins have. He fills seats.
He can also put up numbers with the appropriate setup man and it looks like Zinovjev is his man.

Technically, if the right offer came along, even Thornton could be traded so could Samsonov be traded? Yes. Will Samsonov be traded? It's highly unlikely.

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