HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Islanders
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Bates signs 3 year deal

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-06-2006, 11:26 AM
  #26
Killer Carlson
Registered User
 
Killer Carlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dallas/Fort Worth
Country: United States
Posts: 12,846
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
One other minor point on this move. Compare it with the recent waiving of Weinhandl who Shaw said "lacked desperation." Play halfheartedly, get waived. Play your heart out, get an extension. If nothing else, it sends the right message.
I'm less concerned with sending messages as I am with correctly allocating resources.

BUT, if we want to talk about messages, how about one to the new GM that says, "We're trying to give you as much freedom as possible and MM won't make any decisions that could possibly make your job harder"? If I was a candidate, I'd be VERY concerned by this move. First, that MM is still trying to leave his mark on this team and secondly, that he won't ever be 'uninvolved'.

Killer Carlson is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 11:26 AM
  #27
Darth Milbury
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Darth Milbury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Searching for Kvasha
Country: Bosnia and Herzegovina
Posts: 37,673
vCash: 500
I don't think HE did make this call. He had to be acting on instructions from Wang, and Wang made the call for one reason or another.

I'm guessing that either 1) The contract was so good it could not be passed upon, 2) the "new" GM was consulted.

Basically, if Bates is not making a whole lot more than he did this year, this good be a good deal. Bates is a steady vet, if a somewhat limited guy.

Darth Milbury is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 11:30 AM
  #28
Seph
Registered User
 
Seph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oregon
Country: South Korea
Posts: 15,622
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Seph
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Carlson
I'm less concerned with sending messages as I am with correctly allocating resources.

BUT, if we want to talk about messages, how about one to the new GM that says, "We're trying to give you as much freedom as possible and MM won't make any decisions that could possibly make your job harder"? If I was a candidate, I'd be VERY concerned by this move. First, that MM is still trying to leave his mark on this team and secondly, that he won't ever be 'uninvolved'.
Mike is still the GM. And he is until the new GM is appointed. As such he has certain responsibilities that he has to continue doing. I don't think this says anything about what his involvement will be like once he is no longer the GM. And as Darth points out, there is a very good chance that Mike wasn't even all that involved in this move. It could have been Wang's decision, or maybe they know who the new GM is already and he said that he wanted Bates kept. Especially keeping in mind that according to various media sources, Mike can't make any move without Wang's blessing.

Seph is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 11:32 AM
  #29
blitzkriegs
Registered User
 
blitzkriegs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Beach & Mtn & Island
Posts: 8,893
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C.
But that's exactly the point. Milbury should not be making the call as to who is important enough or signing reasonably enough to keep. He does not know how the new GM wants to allocate resources. He just should not be tying our hands going forward. We all happen to like Bates, but that is beside the point. The bigger issue is there was no pressing need to make this signing when the new GM is coming on. If Milbury could get ALL our pending free agents signed reasonably, or, hell, even at a discount, SHOULD he? Of course not. We're not bringing in a new GM to keep all of Milbury's players but just at reasonable rates, we're bringing him in b/c Milbury's team is more or less a failure and the new GM will restructure the team. So why tie the new guy's hands? There was plenty of time to do this between now and July 1 and the new GM could deal with it then. And if Bates walked, well, we'd have to find another sparkplug player with string-cheese groins to score ten goals for us next year. I like him, and I'm glad he'll be around, but he's limited and it's not my place any more than it is Milbury's to decide who we should be retaining.
Joe - to an extent I agree with your comments above. However, one can't be foolish to think that the franchise is going into a hold pattern while NYI await the appointment of a new GM.

Like Hahn said, all player transactions from here on out are approved by Wang. So, Wang ok'd this. Yes, that's an assumption on my part, but a pretty strong inference to tie the knot.

Moreover, I think what Darth states about the new GM being consulted makes some sense. If not for the very reason, then there are players the candidates have said they would intend on retaining at the right price. If that is the case, then that's fine. The most favored candidate at this point, Lombardi, probably gave his opinions on the current roster and what he planned to do with it.

A very real question to ask a candidate is "hey, i got some UFA's here that we need to make a decision on before the deadline, what's your take?"

Again, it's not like NYI just consumed 2-5 mil dollars of cap space per anum with this signing...

blitzkriegs is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 11:37 AM
  #30
Capt Reynolds
Registered User
 
Capt Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,493
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
But someone has to make these decisions. Whether we like him or not, Milbury is still the GM, and has to continue playing the role until someone else is hired.
See, but that's really my problem with it. This is not a decision anyone *had to* make. We could have simply held onto Bates and let the new GM make the decision. Given that Red Deer's season ends 3/19 the new GM likely will be in place by mid-April at the latest, plenty of time to resign whoever he wants to keep. There just was no need to give anyone a three-year extension just now. And I like Bates, I think he's great at what he is, and I'll enjoy watching him play the next three years. But this was not a decision that had to be made at this juncture.

Capt Reynolds is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 11:53 AM
  #31
DaMick
at least we got D
 
DaMick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Purgatory
Country: United States
Posts: 8,433
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to DaMick
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
You want a new gm/coach deciding this players fate here and you give that money to Parrish if your going to give it to anyone.
Youre assuming that Parrish wants to come back,From the sounds of it i dont mind that Bates was resigned at the "home town discount".

He plays a great role as a sparkplug type who wants to be on the Island.

Meanwhile it seems more likely that Parrish wants to test the free agent waters.

If Parrish doesnt want to come back....then USE that money saved to get that TOP 4D we desperately need.

Though it is somewhat disturbing that Mad Mike announced the deal,
I wonder if this was Wang's call the whole way.




__________________
DaMick is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:05 PM
  #32
NYIsles1*
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 9,539
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaMick
From the sounds of it i dont mind that Bates was resigned at the "home town discount".


I guess eventually we'll find out what he signed for, but until then I would not call this a hometown discount. This is a player who is making 877,800 dollars in 05-06 who really did not do much to justify three years with his injury history or his slump this year combined with his thirty eight games between goals in 03-04.

http://www.nhlpa.com/WebStats/Player...phy.asp?ID=264



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaMick
Though it is somewhat disturbing that Mad Mike announced the deal,
I wonder if this was Wang's call the whole way.


That's something we will likely never know but Milbury is still the gm and he likely made the call, it's his comments on the website with the player.

NYIsles1* is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:09 PM
  #33
Capt Reynolds
Registered User
 
Capt Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,493
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
That's something we will likely never know but Milbury is still the gm and he likely made the call, it's his comments on the website with the player.
Well, I was against the signing even though I like Bates, but if we're going to sign him then MM should be the one announcing it. How could he continue to negotiate with rival GMs if Wang is making the announcements?

Capt Reynolds is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:22 PM
  #34
Trottier
Very Random
 
Trottier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 27,745
vCash: 500
The world cannot stop while NYI chooses it's next GM. Business has to be taken care of.

Solid signing of a very solid support player. You win with his type. Versatile, can be used in multiple situations and brings speed to a slow roster. And ideal third-line forward.

Trottier is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:27 PM
  #35
Capt Reynolds
Registered User
 
Capt Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,493
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
The world cannot stop while NYI chooses it's next GM. Business has to be taken care of.

Solid signing of a very solid support player. You win with his type. Versatile, can be used in multiple situations and brings speed to a slow roster. And ideal third-line forward.
Yes, but Trots, this is not something that had to be taken care of right now. Last time I checked free agency started on 7/1, not 3/7. We're all OK with the signing because we like Bates and we assume it's a reasonable price. But the problem isn't about Bates, it's about milbury making these calls at all when he does not need to resign anyone right now. What happens when he makes a call that we DON'T like? You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and either we're going to trust Milbury to resign who he sees fit at what price he thinks is fair and not complain if he resigns an "affordable" Kvasha, or he should not be doing it at all. Given that we have four more months to sign these guys I know where I come out.....

Capt Reynolds is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:29 PM
  #36
My friend
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 859
vCash: 500
It would have been nice to wait for the new GM to do this, but I think Bates is fine, if he signed for about a mil per.

Next year's third line could be:

Bergie-Nokie-Bates. Or Bergie-Bates Nokie. I think that's a cheap third line with a lot of speed, hitting and potential. And Bates brings a nice veteran, hard working presence to that line.

My friend is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:32 PM
  #37
arby2222
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
I guess I'm at the point I think Bates has no business being on this teams top three lines and only should take some faceoffs and play on the fourth lines, too many kids with good potential he's standing in the way of for the next three years. He's not physical, goes into huge scoring slumps.

I was really hoping he we not be back, somehow he get's a three year contract for not producing. I know he closed the doors and let the team have it recently and no doubt is seen as a leader in his own way but the overall production does not merit this kind of contract.
dont know why you have such a problem with bates..i agree he is a little inconsistent and will probably have groin problems his whole career..but he is a good hard working ROLE player which is valuable..and i dont know why you are saying he isnt physical he throws his body around all the time -and is actually pretty good at it....

some people on this boad wonder if we are buyers or sellers at the trade deadline ,wonder what moves we are going to make and then complain when a move is made--we all know a gm wont be in place until before the draft-so how do you expect anything to get done....

good signing by MM

arby2222 is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:33 PM
  #38
Twist and Shout
Registered User
 
Twist and Shout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,264
vCash: 500
Apparently the number that is floating around is 2.25 million / a year. Take it with a grain of salt though.

Twist and Shout is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:36 PM
  #39
Pure Slaughter Value
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 1,906
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Pure Slaughter Value
Understandable, but I'm with Trots on this one. It's probably 3.25 mill in total spread out over three years for a guy (when healthy) who contributes in many situations and positions.

As far as making a call we ourselves don't like...it's gonna happen with MMM or anyone else that has the GM responsiblity.

Re: Kvasha with a "friendly contract". One would hope to assume that a new GM or MMM sees that Kvasha's talent is 1st/2nd line but he has not been able to justify a spot on either line so he should be traded, regardless of "hometown discounts" or things of that nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C.
Yes, but Trots, this is not something that had to be taken care of right now. Last time I checked free agency started on 7/1, not 3/7. We're all OK with the signing because we like Bates and we assume it's a reasonable price. But the problem isn't about Bates, it's about milbury making these calls at all when he does not need to resign anyone right now. What happens when he makes a call that we DON'T like? You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and either we're going to trust Milbury to resign who he sees fit at what price he thinks is fair and not complain if he resigns an "affordable" Kvasha, or he should not be doing it at all. Given that we have four more months to sign these guys I know where I come out.....

Pure Slaughter Value is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:39 PM
  #40
Capt Reynolds
Registered User
 
Capt Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,493
vCash: 500
WOW! Where did you hear that? I won't rush to judge until we get some confirmation but that would be a terrible signing.

Capt Reynolds is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:39 PM
  #41
Killer Carlson
Registered User
 
Killer Carlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dallas/Fort Worth
Country: United States
Posts: 12,846
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arby2222
dont know why you have such a problem with bates..i agree he is a little inconsistent and will probably have groin problems his whole career..but he is a good hard working ROLE player which is valuable..and i dont know why you are saying he isnt physical he throws his body around all the time -and is actually pretty good at it....

some people on this boad wonder if we are buyers or sellers at the trade deadline ,wonder what moves we are going to make and then complain when a move is made--we all know a gm wont be in place until before the draft-so how do you expect anything to get done....

good signing by MM
Unless you're counting just rubbing his body against someone as being physical, I don't see it. My wife disagrees, but I digress...

Actually, running with that theme, Bates and I compare favorably. Both try very hard, are fan favorites based on past glory but yet very rarely score other than during a yearly hot streak!

Killer Carlson is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:39 PM
  #42
Pure Slaughter Value
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 1,906
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Pure Slaughter Value
Or a carton of sea salt. That's about 1.1 million higher than his worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenSteen
Apparently the number that is floating around is 2.25 million / a year. Take it with a grain of salt though.

Pure Slaughter Value is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:40 PM
  #43
Trottier
Very Random
 
Trottier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 27,745
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C.
But the problem isn't about Bates, it's about milbury making these calls at all when he does not need to resign anyone right now. What happens when he makes a call that we DON'T like? You can't put the genie back in the bottle, and either we're going to trust Milbury to resign who he sees fit at what price he thinks is fair and not complain if he resigns an "affordable" Kvasha, or he should not be doing it at all.
Not trying to be cute, but apparently a few fans assumed that when the announcement was made in January it signaled that Milbury was history that day. Nothing of the kind was suggested. And again, business goes on.

To be sure, a majority (if not all) NYI fans, myself included, would like the day of a new GM to come ASAP, and for MM to be sent out to pasture with regard to personnel decisions. But it's not reality.

I just think a ton of negative assumptions are made when it comes to any move by MM. Understandable, as he has earned his reputation. But when I read that MM "blew it" with Weinhandl on the baseless assumption that he could have gotten a return for him, or that Bates could have been re-upped at the same price at a later date, I'm sorry, I dissent.

It is possible, you know, that the dollars and timing were right to strike a deal. Which is why it was done.

My personal thinking all along was that Bates was a no-brainer re-signing among NYI impending UFAs. You do not hand a 3rd line checking center role to a guy who is 20 y/o and who has 15 NHL games under his belt (Nokie). Heck, there is no guarantee that any of those kids will cut it - and the NHL is not Bridgeport (i.e., a niiiiiice place to try-out kids). As such, Bates is your stopgap until that time that Nokie (or O'Mearra or Collition) is ready for the responsibility. Then, Bates can be plugged in elsewhere or moved.

That's called "depth," making kids earn NHL spots, and developing players properly.

And I'm sure Bates came at a fair annual salary; not unlike Snow (though at a higher price), the tradeoff was likely years (security) for bucks.

Adding: I happen to respectfully disagree bigtime with the categorization of Bates not being a physical player. I really wonder if we watch the same games sometimes. Being physical does not mean being Steve Webb on every shift. Bates, like Hunter and Asham, and...well that's about it among forwards....takes the body when he can and never avoids high-traffic areas.


Last edited by Trottier: 03-06-2006 at 12:58 PM.
Trottier is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:41 PM
  #44
Capt Reynolds
Registered User
 
Capt Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,493
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure Slaughter Value
As far as making a call we ourselves don't like...it's gonna happen with MMM or anyone else that has the GM responsiblity.
Yeah, but only MM is a lame duck GM about to be replaced. That's the big difference there. It's not about a GM making a move we don't like, it's about a guy who is on his way out saddling the new GM with something he may not want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure Slaughter Value
Re: Kvasha with a "friendly contract". One would hope to assume that a new GM or MMM sees that Kvasha's talent is 1st/2nd line but he has not been able to justify a spot on either line so he should be traded, regardless of "hometown discounts" or things of that nature.
Do you really think we could trade Kvasha? Man, now THAT is a bet a surely would not want to take by signing him.

Capt Reynolds is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:41 PM
  #45
DaMick
at least we got D
 
DaMick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Purgatory
Country: United States
Posts: 8,433
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to DaMick
Quote:
Originally Posted by My friend
Next year's third line could be:

Bergie-Nokie-Bates.
That would be a nice line...alot of energy

DaMick is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:44 PM
  #46
kasper11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 6,729
vCash: 500
According to Newsday it is 1.2M per.

A little higher than I was hoping to see, I'm on the fence on this one now.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...orts-headlines

kasper11 is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:47 PM
  #47
Capt Reynolds
Registered User
 
Capt Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,493
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Not trying to be cute, but apparently a few fans assumed that when the announcement was made in Janaury it signaled that Milbury was history that day. Nothing of the kind was suggested. And again, business goes on.

It is possible, you know, that the dollars and timing were right to strike a deal. Which is why it was done.
Business goes on, but this was just not a move that had to be made right now. Free agency is FOUR MONTHS AWAY. There was no need to rush into handing a three-year deal to a guy with string-cheese groins. Unfortunately you are right, this is business as usual under Milbury.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
And I'm sure Bates came at a fair annual salary; not unlike Snow (though at a higher price), the tradeoff was likely years (security) for bucks.
Don't get me started about how wrong the Snow signing was! You are right, the Bates signing is ver similar -- tagging us with a guy for three years who likely would not have been in great demand had he hit free agency and who if he wanted to stay here so badly we could have kept under better terms. The analogy IS spot-on, you are correct, sir!

Capt Reynolds is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:47 PM
  #48
Twist and Shout
Registered User
 
Twist and Shout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,264
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure Slaughter Value
Or a carton of sea salt. That's about 1.1 million higher than his worth.
Yep.

He gets 1.2 / a year.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...orts-headlines

Twist and Shout is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:48 PM
  #49
Pure Slaughter Value
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 1,906
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Pure Slaughter Value
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C.
Yeah, but only MM is a lame duck GM about to be replaced. That's the big difference there. It's not about a GM making a move we don't like, it's about a guy who is on his way out saddling the new GM with something he may not want.
Like I said, understandable. But I'll stand by and state that any GM would like to have a Shawn Bates on their team for a mill a season. If it was known that it was a 3 year contract for 4.5 mill, I'd be fuming. I'm of the understanding that the Isles were going to try for contracts with UFA's to be and would strike a deal ONLY if it was salary-cap friendly.


Quote:
Do you really think we could trade Kvasha? Man, now THAT is a bet a surely would not want to take by signing him.
As a throw in with Parrish to get whoever, sure. DOn't think he warrants more than a 5th, but he could go somewhere.

Maybe instead of Yashin Washington see Kvasha as a support player for Ovechkin and gives us a 5th rounder?

I just hope he's off this team soon and I've been one of his biggest cheerleaders.

Pure Slaughter Value is offline  
Old
03-06-2006, 12:49 PM
  #50
Trottier
Very Random
 
Trottier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Diego
Posts: 27,745
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaMick
That would be a nice line...alot of energy
And speed (Bergie; Bates).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe C.
Don't get me started about how wrong the Snow signing was! You are right, the Bates signing is ver similar -- tagging us with a guy for three years who likely would not have been in great demand had he hit free agency and who if he wanted to stay here so badly we could have kept under better terms. The analogy IS spot-on, you are correct, sir!
See, we just have a differing philosophy when it comes to contracts and players. I WANT to re-up lower-end guys and get them in the fold at "fair prices" for a period of time. Bates at the reported $1.1M per is VERY fair. What I want to NEVER do is get locked into LARGE multiple year contracts with the wrong "stars". Those are anchors deal that disable a team for years. Bates' contract is very trade friendly. (As for Snow, as I've said elsewhere, much ado about nothing.)

And I disagree about Bates on the open market. Speed, cheap, versatile - he would have received offers, rest assured. Meaning you would have had to overpay to retain him come UFA time. Market dynamics.


Last edited by Trottier: 03-06-2006 at 12:57 PM.
Trottier is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:00 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.