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Bates signs 3 year deal

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Old
03-06-2006, 03:14 PM
  #76
Capt Reynolds
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
This talk about Bates' offense is curious. Were people concerned about Wayne Merrick's offensive production as a third line center on the Cup teams?
I knew Wayne Merrick. Wayne Merrick was a friend of our family. I have a photo of me with him and the Cup taken at his house when it was his day to party with the Cup. Senator, Shawn Bates is no Wayne Merrick.

Jokes aside, your points about Bates' value and contribution are well made, Trots, but I think most of the people here are not zinging Bates qua Bates, they are aghast that Milbury would commit dollars and a line spot to someone that the new GM might not want. Seph makes the point that Bates is cheap enough that we can move him if that is the case. That's a fair enough argument, I would rather not take that risk personally but I can see the point.

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03-06-2006, 03:18 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
This talk about Bates' offense is curious. Were people concerned about Wayne Merrick's offensive production as a third line center on the Cup teams? (Moving up to today, are the defending Cup champs concerned about Tim Taylor's offense manning their third line?) You need two-way, reliable checking forwards among your bottom six, not gunners. (At least on an NHL team vs. a fantasy team.) Guys are third-liners because they work hard...and because they do not possess the offensive capabilities of top 6 forwards! On a team in sad need of defensive personality, one finds it odd that some are still concentrating on your third line center's personal offensive numbers.
Different teams/times and circumstances and this team has significant problems on both offense and defense to a point neither can be ignored. Not sure where the Wayne Merrick Islanders or the Lightning fit here at all, those teams had/has scoring depth, this club lacks it badly and that's the difference. On this team the third line center must get his numbers because they do not have much of a first or second line. Bates is not getting his numbers, in fact when you have one goal since November 19th and go thirty eight games between goals in 03-04 combined with offensive struggles on the top two lines you cannot just look at intangibles and unfortunately have to bring in the stats. (even if some intangibles are positive)

No one is asking for a gunner and the player who started the season hot (as he did in 03-04) would be more than enough but an offensive collapse two years in a row is tough to carry on an offensively challenged club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
This much is a given: Coaches like players who they can rely on nightly. Guys who's efforts are predictable. If that player happens to be a superstar talent, all the better. Regardless, dependability is key. Bates fits that description.
Dependable for Bates is do not expect this player to dominate on defense and forget consistent offense unless your looking for a fringe goal or assist. Man leaves his heart on the ice and has speed, I'm not trying to negate that here but the cold hard reality is this team is not scoring at even strength and on this club it's third line center to produce, it may not be fair but it is where things stand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Hence, the difference of opinion among NYI management and some posters regarding this signing. Guy is getting ~$1 mil more in total salary than he currently makes, spread out over three years! Solid economics for the ROI!
He resigned, it's done and I absolutely hope for the best from him. I guess if it does not work out the poster who said has value for another team is correct and they will get a return.

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03-06-2006, 03:27 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
Different teams/times and circumstances and this team has significant problems on both offense and defense to a point neither can be ignored.

Perhaps the point was lost on you? Who compared the 1980 Isles or 2004 Lightning to the 2006 Isles? We're talking about roles.

If I'm reading correctly, you'd be willing to trade off "just a little defense" for some more offense out of your third-line players. I wouldn't, ever. Regardless if we are talking about assembling a team in 2006 or 1936. (Hence the analogies to other teams.) In fact, I want more defensive discipline from my top "offensive stars!" - one sees that on winning teams.

Cheat defense and you end up with this year's squad. Amazingly, that basic point is still lost on some. To wit - how come NJD has scored one more goal than NYI this year...and yet is 13 points higher in the standings?

We also disagree in our evalution of Bate's game. But so it goes. We disagree about a lot of players!


I guess if it does not work out the poster who said has value for another team is correct and they will get a return.

Hey, I was that poster, earlier in this thread (along with Seph!).

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Old
03-06-2006, 03:51 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Joe C.
Kvasha also is a pending UFA, so there's at least two (Parry and Kvasha). York should not be a UFA. That's all I can think of.

Bouchard, Martinek (who will be 30 this summer), Wyatt Smith. I believe that Wade Dubielewicz might also be an impending UFA.

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03-06-2006, 03:55 PM
  #80
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Now that his $ figure has been revealed, I am still happy about this signing.

With the hypothetical third line for next year I mentioned earlier, I think the key thing is that Bates would be with players who while young, have been lauded for thier work ethic and defensive play. Having Bates as the veteran anchor to that line will go a long way to ensuring that the Isles will get the most out of those 2 players.

That line is far from proven, but it IS CHEAP, FAST physical, and "Dog free" and that means we will have more $$ to fix the top 2 lines, since we were not going to sign a -proven- 3rd line center / winger, for less than $1.2mil...NO WAY. That whole line will cost us about $3 mil total, VERY reasonable, especially cosidering the upside that line has. You also have Colliton in the mix for the 3rd / 4th lines next year.

Also don't minimize the fact that he scored that goal in the playoffs that year. That's more than most can say on this team, and it's a good start. I am also happy that we apear to be rewarding hard-working players with reasonable contracts, and that bodes well for team chemistry.

One side note, If we see Parrish re-sign, who wants to bet that Yashin will not be here, one way or the other, next year?

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03-06-2006, 03:55 PM
  #81
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Glad Batesy is sticking around.

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Old
03-06-2006, 04:15 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Bouchard, Martinek (who will be 30 this summer), Wyatt Smith. I believe that Wade Dubielewicz might also be an impending UFA.
Aha, I knew there had to be more. Good sleuthing, Darth.

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Old
03-06-2006, 04:17 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blitzkriegs
I know that: Parrish & Kvasha. However, there has been much speculation about York's status.

Really, my point is that Hahn failed to name NYI's remainig impending UFA's when it was on topic and completely time relevant.

Don't you think a reader would be curious who else NYI might try to resign before the deadline? His information is just poor...
Oh, I'm not disagreeing Blitz. I was just trying to come up with some names since AH did not provide any.

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Old
03-06-2006, 04:18 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My friend
Also don't minimize the fact that he scored that goal in the playoffs that year.
I admire the way Bates works hard and everything, but it is amazing how long you can live off of one goal from a series that you didn't even win!

Man, if we follow that line of thinking, we should have signed David Volek to a 10 year contract!

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Old
03-06-2006, 04:22 PM
  #85
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I swear Milbury makes me sick. Why not offer him a 1yr deal? Are they so scared of losing him?...Bates has a chronic groin problem.

And if he was so tradable they might get something better for him at the deadline. Milbury is just taking care of him cause Bates is from Boston.

Quote:
NY ISLANDERS
Oleg Kvasha, (UFA)

Aaron Asham, (III)
Shawn Bates, (III)
Joel Bouchard, (III)
Travis Brigley, (III)
Rob Collins, (III)
Jeff Hamilton, (III)
Radek Martinek, (III)
Mark Parrish, (III)
Tomi Pettinen, (III)
Wyatt Smith, (III)
Mike York, (III)

Kevin Colley, (VI)
Wade Dubielwicz, (VI) (26)
Paul Flache, (VI)
Matt Koalska, (VI)
Vince Macri, (VI)
Jody Robinson, (VI)
Allan Rourke, (VI)

Sean Bergenheim, (II)
Chris Campoli, (II)
Rick DiPietro, (II)
Eric Godard, (II)
Trent Hunter, (II)
Justin Papineau, (II)
Steven Regier, (II)
Mattias Weinhandl, (II)

This list falls into the following categories:

- Group II (restricted; original team has right to match or accept draft-pick compensation);

- Group III (unrestricted; original team has no right to match)

- Group IV (restricted; players who have never signed a contract and are considered defected players)

- Group V (unrestricted; a player who has played in 11 professional games in each of the last 10 years, and makes less than the average salary of $1.312 million can declare for unrestricted free agency once in his career)

- Group VI (unrestricted; a player who is 25 years or older, has completed three or more professional seasons and in the case of a player other than a goaltender has played fewer than 80 NHL games, or in the case of a goaltender has played fewer than 28 NHL games).

- UFA (Unrestricted; a player who has played in at elast 7 professional seasons, or a player who has been released from their current contract by a buyout, a 2/3 of remaining salary option all teams carry with all contracts, or Group II restricted free agents not offered a contract by their teams become Group III unrestricted free agents.) 2006 NHL Free Agents
http://www.hockeytraderumors.com/article-6004--0-0.html

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Old
03-06-2006, 04:22 PM
  #86
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Good signing. As has been said by several posters. Bates is an ideal 3rd line forward. I don't know what you guys are expecting for 1.2/season but Bates for 3 years is pretty good

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Old
03-06-2006, 04:26 PM
  #87
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Asham's UFA also? Kvasha isn't? And Dubielwicz hasn't played more than 28 NHL games (only 9 at the moment) so he can't be a group VI by that website's own definition. I'm not sure how accurate that is.

edit: actually, have any of those group VI guys played the game minimums?


Last edited by Seph: 03-06-2006 at 04:31 PM.
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Old
03-06-2006, 04:28 PM
  #88
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It says Kvasha is but I can't say how accurate that is.

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Old
03-06-2006, 04:30 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herecomesdabus
It says Kvasha is but I can't say how accurate that is.
Oops, you're right, I didn't scroll high enough.

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Old
03-06-2006, 04:30 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Perhaps the point was lost on you? Who compared the 1980 Isles or 2004 Lightning to the 2006 Isles? We're talking about roles.

On this team (unlike those clubs) the third line center's role requires a player who can contribute at both ends of the ice as it's currently constructed. This team is surviving on it's pp recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
If I'm reading correctly, you'd be willing to trade off "just a little defense" for some more offense out of your third-line players. I wouldn't, ever. Regardless if we are talking about assembling a team in 2006 or 1936. (Hence the analogies to other teams.) In fact, I want more defensive discipline from my top "offensive stars!" - one sees that on winning teams.


Your not reading me correctly, I'm not even sure if Bates signing is a trade off of anything other than a role for a third line player that will require more offense because that's what the current roster requires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Cheat defense and you end up with this year's squad. Amazingly, that basic point is still lost on some. To wit - how come NJD has scored one more goal than NYI this year...and yet is 13 points higher in the standings?


Defense has been cheated here for a long time and Shawn Bates will never be mistake for a defensive stopper. Where your point is lost is that the Islanders for years have been giving up 20-60 goals (thirty eight in 05-06) against more than New Jersey every year (including 01-02 when the Islanders beat them out in the standings) but every single year the Islanders led the division in scoring to off-set it, even with Bates moderate production they were one of the highest scoring teams in the NHL.

Islanders in 05-06 lead Pittsburgh for second worst goals scored by two goals and are ranked around 20th, things have changed. Cheating defense combined with cheating offense leads to a losing club. Bates has to do more offensively, regardless of role, fair or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Hey, I was that poster, earlier in this thread (along with Seph!).
I guess we agree on that.

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Old
03-06-2006, 04:32 PM
  #91
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I can tell you there is at least one mistake on that list...Weinhandl is signed for next year.
http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/...=nhl-islanders


Last edited by kasper11: 03-06-2006 at 04:40 PM.
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Old
03-06-2006, 04:44 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Carlson
I admire the way Bates works hard and everything, but it is amazing how long you can live off of one goal from a series that you didn't even win!

Man, if we follow that line of thinking, we should have signed David Volek to a 10 year contract!
I'll grant you that mentioning his goal is a little silly, but I see Bates as a guy who could be on a Stanley Cup winning team, and not as a passenger. I felt that Scatchard was that type as well. We all know Bates' limitations, but he has been loved by every coach he's had, and if used properly, I am more than confident he will than earn his $$, by every measure.

He is a guy, who, when hot, can look like a 2nd line player, although he is best used as a 3rd line winger. As far as 3rd line centers/wingers go, I would rate him well above where our top 6 fowards rank, relatively speaking, league wide.

Our bottom 2 lines will cost us about $6 million. Very reasonable, considering we are trading experience, for upside and affordability. I'd rather save a little for the top 2 lines and D, so his move HELPS us better afford upgrades in those areas, since NO WAY were we signing a cheaper/better/proven third line guy this offseason.

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03-06-2006, 04:48 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Carlson
I admire the way Bates works hard and everything, but it is amazing how long you can live off of one goal from a series that you didn't even win!
Actually, he played great throughout that entire series. 6pts in 7 games, formed a dominant PK tandem with Peca (OK, who wouldn't form a dominant PK tandem with Peca?) and fought Tucker. Sure, he also scored probably the most dramatic goal by an Islander in the last decade, but that was more just icing.

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03-06-2006, 04:56 PM
  #94
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Someone pass me a tissue or better yet a paper bag!

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03-06-2006, 04:56 PM
  #95
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This leads me to believe that what ever UFA's we have who do not resign by the deadline...MM will try to move.

So maybe Bates was told that if they did not have a deal in place he would get traded.

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Old
03-06-2006, 05:04 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
Asham's UFA also? Kvasha isn't? And Dubielwicz hasn't played more than 28 NHL games (only 9 at the moment) so he can't be a group VI by that website's own definition. I'm not sure how accurate that is.

edit: actually, have any of those group VI guys played the game minimums?

Asham will be 28 in April, and has six seasons of NHL play. I don't see how he could be an UFA.

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Old
03-06-2006, 05:05 PM
  #97
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i know a lot of people are thinking the glass is half full...since Bates isn't bad...but it was a bad move. This team needs a GM now, not later, with a plan in place. It is absolutely moronic for MM and Wang to offer him a 3 year deal without a GM or plan in place. Couple that with waiving Weinhandl, and you have a potential mess coming on the horizon.

To play devils advocate, based on talks with potential GM suitors, Wang and MM may already have a desire or direction, and basically, they feel Bates being kept while shearing Weinhandl is the way to go and will fall right into a GM setup of Lombardi or whoever.

But, honestly, i don't see it. This is a gut move to award play, and is not a fiscally smart move. It locks a team in. 1 year...sure. They aren't going too far next year. But 3???!?!?!?

Horrendous move by a management that hasn't changed it's stripes.

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03-06-2006, 05:06 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crashthenet
Kvasha gets 10 year deal?

haha just to mess with the fans who booed him Milbury is gonna sign Kvasha to a 10 year 70 Million dollar contract then quit

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03-06-2006, 05:09 PM
  #99
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I don't get it. Are we really going to be needing Bates in 3 years? Isn't he basically exactly what we're hoping about half of our prospects are going to be in the near future?

Hell, do we really need Bates that much now? He's good for a nice scoring streak every season and he is a big fish in a small pond on the Isles when it comes to faceoffs and defense, but he's nothing special. Parrish should have been offerred any money that we gave to Bates.

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03-06-2006, 05:17 PM
  #100
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This is a carbon copy boneheaded signing that they gave Snow. 3yrs...Can you imagine 2 more years of Snow? Now we have a soft back-up and the better goalie stuck in Bridgeport.

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