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So ... let me ask you something?

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Old
03-07-2006, 06:38 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs
Detroit doesn't need speed. Its the best puck possession team in the league and the best passing team in the league as well. Speed hasn't been something that has killed them this season. Even up against fast teams, Detroit hasnt been lacking as their tape to tape skill is unmatched and thrives under the new NHL with its ability for long passing and less holding the stick by the opposition.

I wouldnt mind seeing Jason Williams traded for more scoring depth. It would only make one of the best offensive teams better and more productive up front, but my wanting him gone isnt a necessity. I'd be more interested in landing a guy on defense that could drop the gloves as well.

That being said, Detroit hasnt had true scoring punch in a while from one player, but you obviously havent done your homework lately as Zetterberg is the leading goal scorer, Shanahan has 28, Pavel can light the lamp but has taken more to setting up teammates of late and Mikael Samuelsson has some great hands and has turned into a defensively and physically capable winger and 20 goal scorer. Him and Zetterberg together are the new Zetterberg and Datsyuk. Not to mention Homer on the PP is a sure bet for 25 goals this season and the Wings also have the leading goal scorer on defense in Matthieu Schneider.

Scoring punch is not lacking for the Wings. They'll end the season with 7 possibly 8 20 goal scorers. And at the very least two of which will be 30 goal scorers.
I watch almost every red wings game.
And you're insane if you think Sammuelsson is a true goal scoring forward.
He's having a nice year, but come on.
Same with Holmstrom.

And yes, the Wings MUST get faster.
Winning the presidents trophy won't mean diddly unless the team goes far in the playoffs.
And you need speed and/goaltending to go far in the playoffs. And we can't do much about goaltending.

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03-07-2006, 06:58 PM
  #27
Vladi K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Detroit gives up WAY too much for Samsonov and Zednik, especially since they'd only be looking to add one of them. No reason to get rid of a top prospect, a scrub, and a couple of picks when Lang is already being removed from the team.
I am not sure it's too much... granted, I don't think much of Hudler and I think paying Lang 3.8 mil to center 3rd line is just ridiculous... doing this would make the lines look:
Shanahan-Datsyuk-Zednik
Samsonov-Zetterberg-Samuelsson
Holmstrom-Williams-Yzerman
Maltby-Draper-Franzen

with Cleary/Mowers as extras....

~shrug~

maybe I am wrong..

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03-07-2006, 07:11 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCanCommunications
I watch almost every red wings game.
And you're insane if you think Sammuelsson is a true goal scoring forward.
He's having a nice year, but come on.
Same with Holmstrom.

And yes, the Wings MUST get faster.
Winning the presidents trophy won't mean diddly unless the team goes far in the playoffs.
And you need speed and/goaltending to go far in the playoffs. And we can't do much about goaltending.
Then you should know the wings dont need more offense and that speed isnt their problem. They are by no means a slow team as it is. Lang, Homer and Shanny are the only slow guys, the other guys are fast enough and the bottom 6 happens to be extremely fast. Who even said the Wings were going to win the Presidents tophy? I couldnt care less, but you obviously dont watch almost all of their games to know what their needs are and what they have enough of.

Im willing to bet that Kenny Holland knows more about hockey and about the wings needs than you do and it just so happens that hes not looking for a scoring winger and speed. Hes looking for Dmen and a gritty forward. Granted, signing a guy like Drake would add some speed but its not his #1 priority as its not a problem.

And no, Samuelsson isnt a true scoring winger. I never said he was. But he does round out a nice squad and has scored many goal scorers goals this year. Hes not going to put up 40 or 50 goals. I doubt any of the wings will, but the wings have never relied on one outstanding forward to carry the team.

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03-07-2006, 09:12 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detredWINgs
Then you should know the wings dont need more offense and that speed isnt their problem. They are by no means a slow team as it is. Lang, Homer and Shanny are the only slow guys, the other guys are fast enough and the bottom 6 happens to be extremely fast. Who even said the Wings were going to win the Presidents tophy? I couldnt care less, but you obviously dont watch almost all of their games to know what their needs are and what they have enough of.

Im willing to bet that Kenny Holland knows more about hockey and about the wings needs than you do and it just so happens that hes not looking for a scoring winger and speed. Hes looking for Dmen and a gritty forward. Granted, signing a guy like Drake would add some speed but its not his #1 priority as its not a problem.

And no, Samuelsson isnt a true scoring winger. I never said he was. But he does round out a nice squad and has scored many goal scorers goals this year. Hes not going to put up 40 or 50 goals. I doubt any of the wings will, but the wings have never relied on one outstanding forward to carry the team.
How about Yzerman? Very slow.
Samulesson? Average.
Franzen? Average or less.
And guys like Draper/Maltby have lost a step or two this year.

And are you insane?
In O1/02, the wings had Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Hull, Robitaille, Larionov ... they had a ton of forwards to carry the team.
Back in the day, they had Fedorov/Yzerman/Shanahan/Kozlov/Larionov and then guys like LaPointe and McCarty were decent around the net.

But back then, Shanahan was in his prime. And Kozlov was a playoff sniper.
And Fedorov, in his prime, was arguably the game's most dynamic force.

The Wings have ALWAYS had the horses. Always.
But it's 4 years since the last cup. Guys are way older and slower.
Speed has been a major flaw the last two playoff seasons. And we're not much faster than we used to be.

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03-07-2006, 09:13 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladi K
I am not sure it's too much... granted, I don't think much of Hudler and I think paying Lang 3.8 mil to center 3rd line is just ridiculous... doing this would make the lines look:
Shanahan-Datsyuk-Zednik
Samsonov-Zetterberg-Samuelsson
Holmstrom-Williams-Yzerman
Maltby-Draper-Franzen

with Cleary/Mowers as extras....

~shrug~

maybe I am wrong..
I agree/ If the salary works, it's a great deal for Detroit ...
But Boston wouldn't want any part of this deal. And why in the world would Montreal want Jamie Rivers?

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03-07-2006, 09:18 PM
  #31
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Plus any deal involving Boston and Montreal is unlikely.

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03-08-2006, 10:10 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCanCommunications
In my opinion, Detroit is insane if they don't pick up a scoring winger with speed.
They are extremly slow on the wings and don't have a helluvalot of true scoring punch after Shanahan.

If Detroit can't trade Lang for a scoring winger, it ought to trade prospects for a scoring winger and then trade Lang to a team that needs a center, in return for prospects.
Lang for prospects? Cmon newsguy...you know this will NEVER happen. The Wings do not trade players like Lang for prospects. They never do and they never will as long as they feel like they have a shot at the Cup. Who gives the Wings a better shot THIS year? Lang or some picks/prospects?


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03-08-2006, 10:15 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCanCommunications
I watch almost every red wings game.
And you're insane if you think Sammuelsson is a true goal scoring forward.
He's having a nice year, but come on.
Same with Holmstrom.

And yes, the Wings MUST get faster.
Winning the presidents trophy won't mean diddly unless the team goes far in the playoffs.
And you need speed and/goaltending to go far in the playoffs. And we can't do much about goaltending.
Adding some speed would be nice, but it isnt something that HAS to be done. Nashville is widely considered to be one of the fastest teams in the league, if not the fastest team in the league. And the Wings have controlled the play against them in each and every game. They can handle speedy teams better this year. Hatcher, Hull and McCarty are gone and replaced by faster players and that has made a big difference this season.

Again, I wouldnt have a problem adding a speedy player if it doesnt cost the Wings anyone of importance from their nightly roster. They dont have depth NOW, so trading a roster player for a roster player doesnt make alot of sense to me. Getting a roster player for a prospect or a pick would be the ideal situation.

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03-08-2006, 12:39 PM
  #34
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Ye Wings fan of little faith.


Only in Detroit would fans complain about a team that's in first place.

Detroit has no scoring punch after Shanny ON THE WINGS. They're overloaded with it up front with Z/Datsyuk/Lang. If they could move Lang for a scoring winger, then they'd have two incredible lines with top centermen, a top winger, and a gritty winger to do the work in the corners and backcheck.


With that said, I clearly see what you're saying, but I think you're going a little overboard. When your team is in first place, has scored at will for most of the season, has shown its best defensive discipline in years, and your "backup" goalie has played very well under pressure and over the duration of the season, you really shouldn't complain too much. You always want to see your team improve. But when they're already near the front for the Cup race, you've gotta put things in perspective and relax a bit.

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03-08-2006, 12:46 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCanCommunications
I agree/ If the salary works, it's a great deal for Detroit ...
But Boston wouldn't want any part of this deal. And why in the world would Montreal want Jamie Rivers?
I think the salaries should work...

Why would not Boston want any part of this deal? Do they really think they can better than Ribeiro/Hudler for Samsonov?

Montreal's #7 D-man, I think, is either Streit or Ivanans or Cote... even Jamie Rivers is a slight upgrade

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03-08-2006, 03:13 PM
  #36
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Detroit hasn't made a move because they don't HAVE to! They are the #1 team in the NHL, and have done it the same way they won the 3 Cups in 6 years: with skill, grit, and leadership. Best passing team in the NHL, #1 or 2 in team defense, good scoring ability, and good-enough goaltending. Only Ottawa could have given them trouble, and with Hasek out for a bit, that will slow them down.

I agree, Lang for a speedy younger scorer may not be a bad trade, but if it isn't there why push it? The Wings have great depth in the AHL and on the horizon, so there is no reason to panic this week.

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03-08-2006, 03:28 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos
My point? There's always room for improvement on any team, even the best team in the league.
like i said, don't be surprised if Kenny makes a move... but he'll only do so to make the team better. not going to make a blockbuster deal like years past just for the sake of making a blockbuster. if there's no move, then he doesn't think there is one that can make this team better that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCanCommunications
And why in the world would Montreal want Jamie Rivers?
don't ask questions!! just take the deal and walk away trying to hold a straight face...


i think it's actually a very good proposal Vladi K, pretty balanced all around. i'd hit it

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Old
03-08-2006, 05:18 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
Lang for prospects? Cmon newsguy...you know this will NEVER happen. The Wings do not trade players like Lang for prospects. They never do and they never will as long as they feel like they have a shot at the Cup. Who gives the Wings a better shot THIS year? Lang or some picks/prospects?

Read the post again.
That is not what I said.

I said the wings should trade Lang for a speedy scoring winger.
IF NOT, they should trade prospects to get a speedy scoring winger.
THEN, if they are over the cap, trade Lang for prospects.

Net effect?
Trading Lang for a speedy winger.

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03-08-2006, 05:20 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
Adding some speed would be nice, but it isnt something that HAS to be done. Nashville is widely considered to be one of the fastest teams in the league, if not the fastest team in the league. And the Wings have controlled the play against them in each and every game. They can handle speedy teams better this year. Hatcher, Hull and McCarty are gone and replaced by faster players and that has made a big difference this season.

Again, I wouldnt have a problem adding a speedy player if it doesnt cost the Wings anyone of importance from their nightly roster. They dont have depth NOW, so trading a roster player for a roster player doesnt make alot of sense to me. Getting a roster player for a prospect or a pick would be the ideal situation.
Well, Lang/Yzerman/Shjanny/Draper/Maltby are slower than they were two years ago.

Mac was replaced by Franzen, who really isn't very fast at all.
We also lots Whitney's speed.

Just answer this question.
Who are our speedy wingers on the top two lines?
We don't have ANY speed on the top lines at the wing positions.

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03-08-2006, 05:22 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
Detroit hasn't made a move because they don't HAVE to! They are the #1 team in the NHL, and have done it the same way they won the 3 Cups in 6 years: with skill, grit, and leadership. Best passing team in the NHL, #1 or 2 in team defense, good scoring ability, and good-enough goaltending. Only Ottawa could have given them trouble, and with Hasek out for a bit, that will slow them down.

I agree, Lang for a speedy younger scorer may not be a bad trade, but if it isn't there why push it? The Wings have great depth in the AHL and on the horizon, so there is no reason to panic this week.

Detroit was the #1 team or close to it the last two seasons, too.
They got swept by Anaheim. Nearly lost to Nashville because they couldn't keep up with the skaters. And then were to slow/weak to fight through the Flames defense, which was patrolled by a bunch of AHLers at the time.

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03-08-2006, 07:00 PM
  #41
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For every one problem you can list with the current Wings roster, we could probably list at least two problems for any other team in the NHL. That's not to say it guarantees the Wings a Cup or even an escape from the first round of the playoffs. That's what makes sports great and worth watching. My point is that while it's fair to point out their faults, it is completely disingenuous to act as if the team is the scum of the hockey earth.

Sometimes Detroit fans don't remember just how good we have it.

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03-08-2006, 08:34 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by power_x_play
For every one problem you can list with the current Wings roster, we could probably list at least two problems for any other team in the NHL. That's not to say it guarantees the Wings a Cup or even an escape from the first round of the playoffs. That's what makes sports great and worth watching. My point is that while it's fair to point out their faults, it is completely disingenuous to act as if the team is the scum of the hockey earth.

Sometimes Detroit fans don't remember just how good we have it.
Come on. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said the team is the scum of the earth. Where did you come up with that?
If you require fabrications to make your point, it's not a point worth making.

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03-08-2006, 09:49 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by TinCanCommunications
Come on. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said the team is the scum of the earth. Where did you come up with that?
If you require fabrications to make your point, it's not a point worth making.
Go back and read your posts. You are acting as if the Wings need a roster overhaul and have no chance to win anything substantial this season, despite the fact that they're currently first in the west. I was exaggerating to prove a point. The point is that I think YOU are exaggerating by exclaiming how slow they are and how they "MUST get faster," despite the fact they have twice as many wins as losses with their Wendel-Clark-ish roster.

I understand being cautious and realistic, but ease up just a bit, that's all I'm saying. The Wings have it pretty good.

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03-08-2006, 09:56 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Thompson
How come we haven't seen Detroit make a big move this year? I really didn't have any question about it earlier in the year. I mean, they had the most wins in the league. How can anyone really complain about that!

However, time is ticking down, and it is puzzling me how quiet Detroit is. They are.. too quiet. Sort of like a prize fighter roping his opponent in.

I can't help but think Detroit will be the team to make the big splash at the deadline and pick up a Luongo or somesuch and get the jump on everyone. I understand there are salary considerations there, but this is not a club where the salary doesn't play well. All of their big salary players are doing well this year it seems. I mean, who would have predicted Shanny would be so.. well.. Shanny this year!
detroit hasent done anything because THEY CANT... they got no money freed up to do anything with. If we did we would have done something probably a week or 2 ago, or before the olympics because in detroit its well known weve been needing that last line defensemen or a bigger forward.

In all honesty, I want detroit to go out and get a good defensemen with some size and grit, im really impressed the last 2 gms with gauthier of phoenix, hes what we need, but will it happen, NOPE.

I just dont see holland doing anything worthy of going "good move" because we just dont got room financially for it. If we didnt have a cap i can assure you that detroit would be adding a top 9 big forward and a top 4 defensemen

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03-08-2006, 10:00 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinCanCommunications
Detroit was the #1 team or close to it the last two seasons, too.
They got swept by Anaheim. Nearly lost to Nashville because they couldn't keep up with the skaters. And then were to slow/weak to fight through the Flames defense, which was patrolled by a bunch of AHLers at the time.
And it all came down to 1 thing, BAD COACHING. Times have changed, the team is completely different from then. Everyones role is different from 2 - 4 years ago. Detroit is far from weak, and saying flames defense was "ahlers" at the time is far from realistic. That defense was far from AHL, sure commodore is no big name like chelios or whatever but its about how u show up for the game, doing your job above par of yourself and doing it cuz you want it more. If detroit plays come out and show they want it more then even if they were the 8th seed it wouldnt matter, in the playoffs it comes down to who wants it more not most skilled.

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03-08-2006, 10:04 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by power_x_play
Go back and read your posts. You are acting as if the Wings need a roster overhaul and have no chance to win anything substantial this season, despite the fact that they're currently first in the west. I was exaggerating to prove a point. The point is that I think YOU are exaggerating by exclaiming how slow they are and how they "MUST get faster," despite the fact they have twice as many wins as losses with their Wendel-Clark-ish roster.

I understand being cautious and realistic, but ease up just a bit, that's all I'm saying. The Wings have it pretty good.
No, I do not think the wings need an overhaul.
I think they need to get faster and more dangerous on the top two lines.
Right now, Shanahan is our only legitmate scoring line winger.

We should trade from our excess to fill our weakness.
Lang For a speedy winger.

I'd rather have two legit scoring lines and two defensive lines
Say:
Holmstrom Datsyuk Samsonov
Samuelsson Zetterberg Shanahan
Yzerman Draper Maltby
Franzen Cleary Williams

THan three watered down lines and a defensive line, like we currently have:

Draper Datsyuk Shanahan
Samuelsson Zetterberg Holmstrom
Yzerman Lang Williams
Franzen Cleary Maltby

Additionally, I'd like said pick up to have speed. And I'd like to have Draper freed up for a defensive shut down role, which is about all he's been good at this year.
And, as good as Datsyuk has been this year, I really don't think he's regained past form. He's had no chemistry with anyone except Lidstrom and Zetterberg this year.
I'd like to get a russian like Samsonov, who seems like a perfect fit for Datsyuk.

In the playoffs, opponents almost always step up their committment to defense, as we have seen 5 of the last six seasons.
It's very tough to break the traps with out speed.
I just keep envisioning Shanahan and Lang and Yzerman and Samuelsson and Holmstrom (none of whom have very good speed) running into a wall of four guys standing up at the blueline.
Like we've done in recent years.

If you call a Lang for Samsonov (or Selanne, or someone like that) trade an "OVERHAUL', well than I suppose you're right.

But my aim is simple. Move Lang. Get Winger.
If it takes two trades to do it (Lang for prospects with one team, prospects for winger to another) then so be it.

I really don't want to go into the playoffs without getting faster on hte wings.
That's it.
We can't do anything about goaltending, because of the cap.
And I think our D is pretty good (if we lose Lidstrom, we're toast no matter who we pick up).

It's just our wingers on the top two lines that need a fix.

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03-08-2006, 10:10 PM
  #47
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hate to bring bad news, but no way is lang landing us someone like sammys potential ufa or not. We would defenitely need to add more to lang for sammy and i honestly dont think its worth it. Lang to sammy is yes a upgrade in skill somewhat and speed, but a big downgrade in size.

Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Williams, maybe our top 3 forwards skill potential wise to some extent and they are all under 6' ... getting sammy we would just completely be pushed around on those top 2 lines, right now its not a good idea to trade lang inless we are getting more size.

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03-08-2006, 10:16 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40
hate to bring bad news, but no way is lang landing us someone like sammys potential ufa or not. We would defenitely need to add more to lang for sammy and i honestly dont think its worth it. Lang to sammy is yes a upgrade in skill somewhat and speed, but a big downgrade in size.

Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Williams, maybe our top 3 forwards skill potential wise to some extent and they are all under 6' ... getting sammy we would just completely be pushed around on those top 2 lines, right now its not a good idea to trade lang inless we are getting more size.
Samsonov can go around players better than Lang can go through them.

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03-08-2006, 10:18 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Samsonov can go around players better than Lang can go through them.
lang isnt gonna get us sammy, plain and simple... theres a reason we need size, yes we need more scorer, but id much rather have scoring and size then scoring and speed... datsyuk, zetterberg, cleary, franzen at times, draper, maltby, are all fast enough for me this year, and i said for me, im not gonna speak for everyone else...

Im not saying i wouldnt mind sammy, i just dont see it happening.. if it happens and we got lang friday morning still and all key playoff guys intact, then ill be jumping with joy... odds of that happening, high unlikely from my POV but then again i didnt see thoedore getting traded either to colorado

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03-08-2006, 10:23 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40
And it all came down to 1 thing, BAD COACHING. Times have changed, the team is completely different from then. Everyones role is different from 2 - 4 years ago. Detroit is far from weak, and saying flames defense was "ahlers" at the time is far from realistic. That defense was far from AHL, sure commodore is no big name like chelios or whatever but its about how u show up for the game, doing your job above par of yourself and doing it cuz you want it more. If detroit plays come out and show they want it more then even if they were the 8th seed it wouldnt matter, in the playoffs it comes down to who wants it more not most skilled.
Look, have you seen any changes in the way Detroit plays? I haven't.
We'll know more come playoff team, but this is still a team that does a helluvalot of freelancing.

And yeah, Calgary's defense did have a lot of AHLers because their regulars were hurt.
Mike Commodore spent almost the entire year in the AHL.
Steve Montador played about 25 regular season games that year and then 20 in the playoffs.

Guys like Rhett Warrener and Andrew Ference played a ton. And those guys are pretty iffy.

Jordan Leopold was in his second full season and first full playoff season.
Regehr was in his first playoff season.

And the Wings couldn't get past them.
Hull Datsyuk Yzerman Zetterberg Whitney Shanahan and Holmstrom
vs.
Regehr, Leopold, Warrener, Ference, Commodor and Montador

On paper, it shouldn't have been close.
Going by regular season stats, it shouldn't have been close.

But they snuffed out the Wings offense with ease.
And Nashville did pretty good against our offense too.
And the year before, so did Anaheim.

Regular season means next to nothing once you get in the playoffs. Even with the "rule changes", regular season and playoff hockey are different sports.

I don't need cliche-ridden lectures about "wanting it' more.

Did you see the look on Shanahan's face last year after elimination? Did you hear him speaking?
Did Calgary want it more?
Nope.
But when push came to shove, Shanahan didn't have the speed to beat the Flames defense. Neither did Hull.
And guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg couldn't fight through the checking. As good as those guys are, they aren't speed demons.

Let's add some speed and give the other team's defense a reason to back off a bit.

A Good Flying Bird* is offline  
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