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COL/MTL: Theodore for Aebischer

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Old
03-11-2006, 05:39 PM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockydude5000
I think this is a wait and see kind of trade. It's also a very high risk trade: either Montreal gets robbed or Colorado gets robbed. If Theodore becomes another Patrick Roy, Habs fans will remember this trade as a top 10 most lopsided trade in history. If Theodore bombs, Avs fans will despise Lacroix for a long time to come.

Overall: this is a high-risk trade for BOTH teams: Colorado short-term, Montreal longterm.
I don't think there was much of a risk for Montreal because he was finished there. It was a case of cutting their losses. There wasn't much to gain beyond subtraction pure and simple, and having Aebischer to solidify the goaltending this year is a bonus. I can't see how Montreal can lose this deal, as just having him around was bad for team chemistry and team finances.

But it is a huge risk for Colorado. The truth is that he's gotten worse every year since 2002, and he played his best when he had to challenge for the number one position. At the start of this season, before his meltdown, most Habs fans pegged him somewhere in the top 10 league-wide. He might become a hyper-dominant goalie again, but odds are that he'll just be a good starter with flashes of brilliance.

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03-11-2006, 06:21 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedave
The truth is that he's gotten worse every year since 2002
The truth? Really?

The actual fact is that last season (03/04) was excellent, the second best of his career. As a starter, Theodore had a couple of excellent seasons, and a couple of very good ones. And then this horrendous season, the *only* bad season he's had.

There is no "steady decline" that you're trying to paint.

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Old
03-11-2006, 06:37 PM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockydude5000
I think this is a wait and see kind of trade. It's also a very high risk trade: either Montreal gets robbed or Colorado gets robbed. If Theodore becomes another Patrick Roy, Habs fans will remember this trade as a top 10 most lopsided trade in history. If Theodore bombs, Avs fans will despise Lacroix for a long time to come.

Overall: this is a high-risk trade for BOTH teams: Colorado short-term, Montreal longterm.
I think the really big factor here is that even if Theodore becomes a decent goaltender (as in slightly better the Aebischer) as an Avs fan I'll feel like we've been set back drastically.

The only way the Avs can win this trade is if Theodore becomes a dominant franchise goaltender, otherwise the Avs will have invested two years in a goaltender that will have cost them something like 5.33/year in salary and cap space. That's a lot of space to take up if you're not playing well.

The otherway is of course to get another GM piss-drunk and trade Theo to them for something exceptional.

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Old
03-11-2006, 07:20 PM
  #204
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Hearing over and over how he has a Hart and Vezina on his resume just reminds me of the fact that roy deserved it that year.

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03-11-2006, 07:47 PM
  #205
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Here is another take on the Theodore trade from hockey writer Kevin Allen:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...-lacroix_x.htm

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03-11-2006, 07:48 PM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by znk
Lacroix is going All-in with his pocket deuces.
You may never read this my friend, but that has to be one of the top 3 best quotes I've ever read on HF boards. Nice work!


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Old
03-11-2006, 09:26 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
The truth? Really?

The actual fact is that last season (03/04) was excellent, the second best of his career. As a starter, Theodore had a couple of excellent seasons, and a couple of very good ones. And then this horrendous season, the *only* bad season he's had.

There is no "steady decline" that you're trying to paint.
2003-04 was not excellent, unless you're only going by statistics (as it seems). He's shown a real tendency to let in soft goals at bad times. He just hasn't been clutch or consistent.

After 2002, he was one of the top 3 goalies in the game. At the beginning of this season, he was somewhere in the top 10, and if he's anywhere in the top 15 now, it's due to reputation alone.

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03-12-2006, 01:42 AM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedave
2003-04 was not excellent, unless you're only going by statistics (as it seems). He's shown a real tendency to let in soft goals at bad times. He just hasn't been clutch or consistent.
Ah yes, the infamous "if the facts don't support my argument, toss out unsupportable intangibles". .919 save percentage, 2.27 goals against, 30+ wins, and 2nd round of the playoffs = excellent year for *any* goaltender.

No wonder all your goalies want out of Montreal after a few years.

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03-12-2006, 03:07 AM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davedave
2003-04 was not excellent, unless you're only going by statistics (as it seems). He's shown a real tendency to let in soft goals at bad times. He just hasn't been clutch or consistent.
Are you talking about Abby or Theo... cause seriously... that is exactly the reason why PL/Coach Q wanted Abby out.



Can't speak for Theo's play(have not seen him play all at much). But Abby made the saves he should have most of the time, but was never able to make the save he shouldn't of made that kept the team in the game. David never was able to "steal" a game like Roy did.

He also was considered to be soft in terms of standing his ground in the net.

Thus why he was traded.

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03-12-2006, 10:58 AM
  #210
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Like almost everyone here, I can't believe this happened! A #1 goalie gets traded by a play-off team for an INJURIED, lesser goalie? Theodore, in 2002, was the better goalie. But this is 2005-2006, and Abby is the better (and non-injured) goalie quite handily.

What a terrible trade by the Avs.

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Old
03-12-2006, 12:40 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
Ah yes, the infamous "if the facts don't support my argument, toss out unsupportable intangibles". .919 save percentage, 2.27 goals against, 30+ wins, and 2nd round of the playoffs = excellent year for *any* goaltender.

No wonder all your goalies want out of Montreal after a few years.
How patronizing and misguided. Do you use statistical positivism when ranking prospects? Will you tell me next that Stillman is better than Iginla?

Your statistical argument isn't very strong anyway. If you look at the stats, you'll see that since 2002 (but not this year), Theodore has been in the top 10 to 20 in the important statistical categories. Alongside Turco, Vokoun, Luongo, Brodeur, Nabokov, Belfour, and also a bunch of others like Lalime, Aebischer, Cechmanek, Thibault, Khabibulin, Denis, Legace, Joseph and on and on. 2002 was excellent, the following year was close to league average, last year was good, and this year has been awful.

That Theodore hasn't been clutch or consistent since 2002 is pretty tangible to those who have actually watched him. Avs fans seem to say the same sorts of things about Aebischer, despite his having better stats than Theodore the last two seasons. But applying your method, they are clearly wrong, as anyone can see that Aebischer is even more excellent than Theodore.

Part of the problem with Theodore is that he encouraged grandiose expectations through his contract demands and off-ice personality. He's a good goaltender, somewhere in the top 10 if you discount this year and make allowances for outside distractions and pressure. But he acted like a top 3, expected to be teated like a top 3, and hasn't delivered since that one season.

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Old
03-12-2006, 01:24 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PecaFan
As a starter, Theodore had a couple of excellent seasons, and a couple of very good ones. And then this horrendous season, the *only* bad season he's had.
I agree that there has not been a steady decline. Rather, he alternates good and bad seasons. In taking everything into consideration I would consider him a top 15 starter in the league, around the middle of the pack. To say that this year is the only bad season Theodore has had is flat out wrong.

2001/02 - Tremendous, Hart trophy winner
2002/03 - Very poor year. 20-31-6, 2.90, .908. Out come the Jim Carey references.
2003/04 - Good year, very solid. 33-28-5, 2.27, .919
2005/06 - Nothing short of terrible.

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03-12-2006, 02:57 PM
  #213
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Avs fans wuill learn soon enough of the legendary Me-Moi Theodore attitude. The guy has some serious baggage and seems to travel with an entourage like that of P. Diddy.

His teammates in MTL called him Queen Theodore... I wonder why.

About that Hart trophy, that was 4 years ago. There is a lifetime in between that Theodore and the current one. Whoever the goalie coach is in Denver, he will have to re-build his entire game. Good Luck.

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Old
03-12-2006, 09:55 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH
Avs fans wuill learn soon enough of the legendary Me-Moi Theodore attitude. The guy has some serious baggage and seems to travel with an entourage like that of P. Diddy.

His teammates in MTL called him Queen Theodore... I wonder why.
We dealt with Roy for 8 years.

Quote:
About that Hart trophy, that was 4 years ago. There is a lifetime in between that Theodore and the current one. Whoever the goalie coach is in Denver, he will have to re-build his entire game. Good Luck.
If Cloutier and Billington can do with him what they did with Abby midseason we should be ok. If not...

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03-12-2006, 10:26 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Steadfast
I agree that there has not been a steady decline. Rather, he alternates good and bad seasons. In taking everything into consideration I would consider him a top 15 starter in the league, around the middle of the pack. To say that this year is the only bad season Theodore has had is flat out wrong.

2001/02 - Tremendous, Hart trophy winner
2002/03 - Very poor year. 20-31-6, 2.90, .908. Out come the Jim Carey references.
2003/04 - Good year, very solid. 33-28-5, 2.27, .919
2005/06 - Nothing short of terrible.
By the way, the year he won the hart and vezina trophy, he singlehandly lost us the series against Carolina and he wasn't good at all against Boston except for two games (but it's still only two games)...

In 2003-04, he had a wonderful first half, even better than his famous season because he was actually winning games, not just having a high sv%. After the all-star game, his game got worse every week and by the end of the season he was horrible again. In the playoffs, he was absolutly terrible. It was one of the worse goaltending display I've ever seen.

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03-13-2006, 06:46 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Hasbro
We dealt with Roy for 8 years.
Theodore is not Roy....

We know about Roy as well, as well as Theo. Trust me, they are not the same.

As for rebuilding his game in half a season, good luck. He will be back to his 03-04 self in time for his new contract in two years. And then he will sign a 4 year big money deal with Colorado (or whoever) and then procedd to go into the tank for another two years, and the get it going for the next contract cycle. It's a vicious cycle with the guy. His game went into the toilet following his first big contract, and then again this season. No one wants a cheater on their team. The act wears thin with teammates pretty quickly, hence the Queen Theodore references from his ex-teammates in MTL.

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03-13-2006, 07:12 AM
  #217
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Well, considering the logic put forward by some Habs fans, if what they say about Theodore is true, then Gainey is truly one of the league's biggest idiots for signing him to such a contract to begin with.

That has to be the implication based on what is being said. It doesn't paint a pretty picture about Gainey's abilities to turn things around in Montreal.

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03-13-2006, 07:54 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Goulet17
Well, considering the logic put forward by some Habs fans, if what they say about Theodore is true, then Gainey is truly one of the league's biggest idiots for signing him to such a contract to begin with.

That has to be the implication based on what is being said. It doesn't paint a pretty picture about Gainey's abilities to turn things around in Montreal.
The one thing about Gainey, is that he will make mistakes, but works quickly to fix them...

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Old
03-13-2006, 09:25 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Goulet17
Well, considering the logic put forward by some Habs fans, if what they say about Theodore is true, then Gainey is truly one of the league's biggest idiots for signing him to such a contract to begin with.

That has to be the implication based on what is being said. It doesn't paint a pretty picture about Gainey's abilities to turn things around in Montreal.
He saw his mistake and he fixed it. He got himself a good replacement for 1/10th of the cost.

The new CBA and the reduction of the UFA age put the Habs in a bad position. Theodore wasn't going to be a UFA for another two years under the old system. With the new CBA, he was only one year away. Gainey would have told Theo to take his QO for this season and avoid signing long term.

The Avalanche got jobbed on this one. With the way Budaj is playing, Theodore might be the backup in Denver as well.

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03-13-2006, 09:30 AM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH
He saw his mistake and he fixed it. He got himself a good replacement for 1/10th of the cost.

The new CBA and the reduction of the UFA age put the Habs in a bad position. Theodore wasn't going to be a UFA for another two years under the old system. With the new CBA, he was only one year away. Gainey would have told Theo to take his QO for this season and avoid signing long term.

The Avalanche got jobbed on this one. With the way Budaj is playing, Theodore might be the backup in Denver as well.
Theodore makes $19 million??? No? Well, then I reckon your "1/10 as much" comment was a huge exaggeration (Aebischer makes 1.9 million -- and will want a raise)? Makes me wonder what else you're exaggerating about regarding this trade.

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03-13-2006, 10:08 AM
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AH
Theodore is not Roy....

We know about Roy as well, as well as Theo. Trust me, they are not the same.
You're right. He isn't half the primmadonna Roy is.

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03-13-2006, 10:37 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd
Theodore makes $19 million??? No? Well, then I reckon your "1/10 as much" comment was a huge exaggeration (Aebischer makes 1.9 million -- and will want a raise)? Makes me wonder what else you're exaggerating about regarding this trade.
Huet makes 450K. Theodore makes 4.5 million this year (5.3 cap hit).

Yep, the exagerration.

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03-13-2006, 10:40 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Hasbro
You're right. He isn't half the primmadonna Roy is.

You think so ? Theodore has a Roy sized ego with 20% of the accomplishments.

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03-13-2006, 09:51 PM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franchise player
In 2003-04, he had a wonderful first half, even better than his famous season because he was actually winning games, not just having a high sv%. After the all-star game, his game got worse every week and by the end of the season he was horrible again. In the playoffs, he was absolutly terrible. It was one of the worse goaltending display I've ever seen.
GMAFB. Are you just making this **** up, assuming no one will call you on it?


Date Decision Goals Shots SPct.
2/23/2004 Win 1 32 0.969
2/24/2004 Win 2 19 0.895
2/26/2004 Win 2 39 0.949
2/28/2004 Win 0 18 1.000
3/1/2004 Win 1 29 0.966
3/3/2004 Loss 4 29 0.862
3/5/2004 Win 3 24 0.875
3/8/2004 Win 2 38 0.947
3/11/2004 OTL 3 32 0.906
3/13/2004 Win 3 25 0.880
3/16/2004 Win 2 31 0.935
3/20/2004 Win 2 35 0.943
3/25/2004 Loss 4 31 0.871
3/27/2004 OTL 3 39 0.923
3/31/2004 Loss 5 15 0.667
4/1/2004 Loss 2 23 0.913
4/3/2004 Win 3 27 0.889


11-4-2 record down the stretch, 10 of 17 games with excellent save percentages well over .900, .914 cumulatively over all 17 games, goals against somewhere in the 2.4 range.

This is some of the worst goaltending you've ever seen? Talk about selective memory syndrome, just ignore all the great games, and remember a couple of losses down the stretch.

Your claims about the 2002 playoffs are equally laughable.

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