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Another Keenan turnaround

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10-24-2003, 04:03 AM
  #1
True Blue
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Another Keenan turnaround

Anyone notice the way that Olli Jokined is playing? Or that he is the Captain of Panthers? I know that when he posted here, Aneirin was always laying the credit for the "Kennan turnarounds" on other people. However, is it a coincidence that Pronger's, Bert's, Naslund's, and now Jokinen's career's have been completely turned around under Kennan's watch? And not just a step in the right direction, but a 180 degree difference in the way they play. Pronger, Bert, and Jokinen were considered busts. And all have enjoyed a remarcable turnaround.
One has to wonder how Horton and Boumester (sp?) will turn out.
Let's also recall that Leetch's finest year in the NHL was under Keenan. Until Keenan, Lettchie was just an offenseman (albeit a very good one). Under Keenan, Leetch learned how to play defense.
Like him or hate him, maybe it's time to give credit where credit is due.

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10-24-2003, 04:05 AM
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I might be wrong on this one but I thought Leetch had a Norris trophy before Keenan arrived in NYC

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10-24-2003, 04:14 AM
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I think you're correct London...

the season in which he had 102 points I believe it was. Of course the Norris is often given out to the defenseman with the most points, which was Leetch, being only the 5th defenseman in history to reach the century mark. I think TB's point is that he learned how to play 'defense' under Keenan. Leetch often ignored that part of the game prior to Keenan. I happen to agree with TB. Unfortunately, though, there are players that get alienated under him too, so not all are success stories. But all-in-all, I like the guy as a head coach.

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10-24-2003, 06:01 AM
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First of all, Keenan did not "turn around" the careers of Naslund, Bertuzzi, and Pronger. When Keenan was in Vancouver for his season and a half, Naslund scored 14 goals the first season and 36 in the season that Keenan was fired (I doubt he'd be fired if he was turning a bust into a star). Naslund didn't hit 40 goals or point-a-game until 2 years AFTER Keenan left. Bertuzzi played, at most, 54 games (it's hard to say exactly how many since Keenan was fired the second year and Bertuzzi missed considerable time) under Keenan and scored a grand total of 14 goals. Again, it wasn't until 2 years after Keenan left that Bertuzzi blossomed into a point-a-game player.

And how exactly did Keenan "turn around" Pronger's career? Keenan got a highly touted 20-year-old d-man who was in the NHL before he was ready and had been injured for half of the previous season. Keenan resurrecting a bust (since when are 20-year-olds busts?) was nothing more than normal development.

I am tired of hearing this same song and dance about Keenan. Some people will credit anything good that happened within 5 years of Keenan's departure to Keenan. There were other coaches that had so much more to do with the development with these players, but Keenan was there in the recent past, so it was the lingering effects of Keenan or the memory of Keenan or Keenan haunting the player's nightmares that caused these things to happen.

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10-24-2003, 06:08 AM
  #5
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When Keenan comes to a team he generally turns around a player or two and gets the absolute best out of them.

He also however buries some players and ruins them.

With Keenan you have to take the good with the bad.

Certain players thrive playing for Keenan, others wilt under the demands, pressure and expectations.

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10-24-2003, 06:10 AM
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Don't forget that he also sparked Joe Thornton as well while he was in Boston.Joe was a work in progress in Boston and was coming along slowly but his game and and development took a major uptick under Keenan.

People that bash Keenan can do it all they want but the guy is one of the absolute best coaches in the game and his teams come to play every night no matter how good or bad his line up may be.

I wish he had come back to the NYR's.You see big yrs out of a # of players under hium including Lindros-Kovalev and Holik as well as getting Carter to play at or above the level he did before coming to us.

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10-24-2003, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
I wish he had come back to the NYR's.You see big yrs out of a # of players under hium including Lindros-Kovalev and Holik as well as getting Carter to play at or above the level he did before coming to us.

If he was coaching the Rangers this year this is what I would expect:

Big years
Lindros - when healthy
Kovalev
Holik
Leetch - when healthy
Dunham - would play a ton
de Vries

Would fade away
Nedved
Hlavac
Poti
Russian Duo


i'm not sure which way Carter would go. I think Mess would play great, but then wear out and become useless.

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10-24-2003, 06:17 AM
  #8
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Leetch also won a conn smythe with keenan as the head coach, I would say most players would take that opportunity... and its true that keenan is tough on players, they dont call him iron mike for nothing.
Jokinen is a very nice player, I think he finally came into his own once paired with Viktor Kozlov who is a very nice player with great size and above average skills. (I was sad to see the sharks deal him away in the first place)
anyways, Keenan is a master motivator. I wouldn't complain if he came back to broadway to set things straight

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10-24-2003, 06:37 AM
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A couple of other players he has molded would be Tocchet and Roenick. I think with Tocchet, Keenan had him playing on a checking line his first year, by the second he had moved him to a second line where he had more responsibility scoring and finally he was playing on the top line. In other words, he made the player a complete player. Now, this doesn't work for all players, as we know with Keenan's history, but he is still a very good coach and motivator.

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10-24-2003, 07:21 AM
  #10
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I believe both Naslund and Bertuzzi...

have credited Keenan a bit in regards to their success. I think they mentioned Messier too.

Agree almost 100% in regards to players fading and rising to the occasion. I actually think that given a puch in the rear, Malakhov can shine. He has the skills and aggression in him, it's just not easy getting it out.

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10-24-2003, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
People that bash Keenan can do it all they want but the guy is one of the absolute best coaches in the game and his teams come to play every night no matter how good or bad his line up may be.
Like Kodiak, I'm pretty fed up with people throwing themselves at Keenan's feet. I really could give 2 craps about the development of 1 or 2 players on a 23 man roster because in the grand scheme of things, it's the success of the TEAM that's the measure of a good coach. From that perspective, he's done NOTHING in a decade except fail miserably everwhere he's been and be run out of town by each respective organization. As I understand it, only a lengthy contract and tight financial situation are keeping him in his current job.

As for the Rangers, I seriously doubt that all the yelling and screaming in the world could even begin to put a dent in what's wrong with this team.

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10-24-2003, 08:09 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
it's the success of the TEAM that's the measure of a good coach. From that perspective, he's done NOTHING in a decade except fail miserably everwhere he's been and be run out of town by each respective organization.
I think that you are a little too quick to dismiss the work he has done and is currently doing in Florida. Don't you think that the fact that Florida had the biggest turnaround pointwise in the NHL last year has something to do with Keenan? If a coach would make the Rangers have a similar turnaround pointwise, we would be singing his praises. Facts are facts. Eventually facts point to something. In this case, it is pointing to the fact that what Keenan is doing in Florida is one of the most remarkable coaching jobs in the league.

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10-24-2003, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
Like Kodiak, I'm pretty fed up with people throwing themselves at Keenan's feet. I really could give 2 craps about the development of 1 or 2 players on a 23 man roster because in the grand scheme of things, it's the success of the TEAM that's the measure of a good coach. From that perspective, he's done NOTHING in a decade except fail miserably everwhere he's been and be run out of town by each respective organization.
.
And give me what yrs those Keenan coached teams underachieved for what was on their roster.

And the fact that all his teams big players love him and show up to play for him EVERY night and his role players of course follow suit means nothing I guess?

And also to discount getting guys like Thornton, Bertuzzi, Jokinen, Pronger, Naslund to evlevate their games and bring it to a new level emans nothing as well I guess.And watch what he does with Horton and J-Bo down there.They will now how to play hard and succeed in the NHL on a nightly basis and it will have a ton to do with Iron Mike.

And as far as coming to the NYR's and him not sticking anywhere--who gives a ****?Things here are always year to year anyway so whatever time he would be here would be fine as it's different situations here year after year and anybody calling for him him has been talking about over the last 2 yrs with a win now team that would try and make some noise before the lockout and when the team will probrably be totally different post-lockout.

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10-24-2003, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
And give me what yrs those Keenan coached teams underachieved for what was on their roster.
How about a Blues team that featured Hull, Gretzky, Shanny, McInnis among others? Or that crappy 'Nucks team that only had Bure, Almo, Messier, etc? And talk about a Bruins team that had nothing to work with apart from Allison, Guerin, Thornton, Samsonov, Rolston et al. That Boston team is the only one to even put a winning record together under Keenan since he left NY. Of course, did it really matter since it was basically a team mutiny that got him fired after one season though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
And also to discount getting guys like Thornton, Bertuzzi, Jokinen, Pronger, Naslund to evlevate their games and bring it to a new level emans nothing as well I guess.
I'm not discounting his ability to raise the level of play for 1 or 2 players on his team. Clearly, it's the ONLY thing he's good at.

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10-24-2003, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
How about a Blues team that featured Hull, Gretzky, Shanny, McInnis among others? Or that crappy 'Nucks team that only had Bure, Almo, Messier, etc? And talk about a Bruins team that had nothing to work with apart from Allison, Guerin, Thornton, Samsonov, Rolston et al. That Boston team is the only one to even put a winning record together under Keenan since he left NY. Of course, did it really matter since it was basically a team mutiny that got him fired after one season though?



I'm not discounting his ability to raise the level of play for 1 or 2 players on his team. Clearly, it's the ONLY thing he's good at.
You mean that Blue team that had Gretz for all of 18 games and were paper thin after Hull and Shanny and Al Mac??

How about also recognizing that he absolutely stole DeMitra and Pronger while being GM there, setting the plate fpr the run of the Blues team the last 5 yrs giving them their best d-man and best forward at a very young age on both guys.

As for the Canuck team just who else did they have other than Mess-Bure-Almo???They were a one line team with nobody on defense and a declining McLean in nets.

And yes the Boston team had talent but as you said he had them with a winning record and the Joe Thornton that started under Keenan wasn't close to the player that finished under Keenan.

And every one of his players save Brett Hull loved playing under Keenan.

Bottom line is whatever team he's coaching he gets to play hard and he does have a knack for getting certain players to play up to if not beyond their potential.

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10-24-2003, 11:13 AM
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Hey, I don't really care what the excuses are for Keenan's inability to live up to the hype that surrounds him. The bottom line is that his coaching record over the past 10 years sucks. That makes the moniker of "one of the absolute best coaches in the game" pretty tough for me to buy into. Sorry.

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10-24-2003, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr.
Hey, I don't really care what the excuses are for Keenan's inability to live up to the hype that surrounds him. The bottom line is that his coaching record over the past 10 years sucks. That makes the moniker of "one of the absolute best coaches in the game" pretty tough for me to buy into. Sorry.
Fair enough.I can see and understand your view on it.

BTW-are you going tomorrow night???

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10-24-2003, 11:19 AM
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I don't think I'm going man. Maybe that Avs game next weekend though.

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10-24-2003, 11:32 AM
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from a Vancouver perspective, I would say that he definitely had some level of impact with Naslund, but not with Bertuzzi...

and even with Naslund it was more a matter of circumstances...

he was ready to deal him off for a 4th round pick that year, but a major injury to Mogilny forced him to take him out of the press box (or off the 4th line) and give him some 2nd line minutes... and Naslund responded...
but at the time, he had a trade with Ottawa lined up sending Naslund for a 4th - in retrospect, thank God for the Mogilny injury!!

with Bertuzzi, this guy was getting 25 goals before Keenan... got 25 goals with him... he didn't have his "breakout" until after his suspension in 2001 - when Crawford was with the team...

the biggest impact (and only one really) that Keenan had with Bertuzzi was actually dealing for him (Linden for Bertuzzi, McCabe and 3rd round pick (Ruutu)).... but as a Canuck, when Keenan was the coach, Bertuzzi was the same Bert that played in LI - brilliant at times, but inconsistent... he was also never considered a bust - unless you think a 25 goal man who was still a physical presense back then, is a bust... but he was underachieving.

The biggest problem I have with Keenan is that he has no respect for too many players... I don't think that any Keenan run team can have a lot of chemsitry really because too many players don't want him around... and there aren't any players like Messier left - a dominant star, who everyone looks up to, and someone who is always in Keenan's corner.... without a player like that, it's only a matter of time before Keenan loses his room and the players (and GM) want him gone.

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10-24-2003, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
Bertuzzi was the same Bert that played in LI - brilliant at times, but inconsistent... he was also never considered a bust
Guess you did not see Bert play for the Isles. He was considered EXACTLY that when he was there. A collosal bust. I do not seem to recall him scoring 25 goals when he was with the Isles. When he was with the Isles, he went from scoring 18 goals, to 10, to 7. A bust on the Isles, a monster w/ the 'Nucks.

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10-24-2003, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Guess you did not see Bert play for the Isles. He was considered EXACTLY that when he was there. A collosal bust. I do not seem to recall him scoring 25 goals when he was with the Isles. When he was with the Isles, he went from scoring 18 goals, to 10, to 7. A bust on the Isles, a monster w/ the 'Nucks.
my bad.... his goal totals did go down on the island before he was dealt (although so did his games)...

but the point is still the same... under Keenan he wasn't scoring any better (although he was injured alot)... his first 25 goal season came under Crawford, which also happened to be Crow's first season in Vancouver.

so if you're going to credit any coach for his breakout - wouldn't that be Crawford?

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10-25-2003, 06:11 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
so if you're going to credit any coach for his breakout - wouldn't that be Crawford?
Of course not. Anything good that ever happens in the career of a player who was coached by Keenan for even the slightest amount of time is ALWAYS directly attributed to Keenan, regardless of how long it's been since Keean coached said player.

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10-25-2003, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kodiak
Of course not. Anything good that ever happens in the career of a player who was coached by Keenan for even the slightest amount of time is ALWAYS directly attributed to Keenan, regardless of how long it's been since Keean coached said player.
so true... IMO Keenan is one of the most overrated coaches in the biz... the guy absolutely ripped apart our team, and something I'll never get over... he made one great trade - but stripped the character of our team down... and it took us years to rebuild it again.

the guy is old school, and few players in today's game seem to respect his tactics much... I know there were a lot of pissed off players in Vancouver (and a lot of pissed off fans) when he was coaching here.

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10-25-2003, 11:51 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodiak
Of course not. Anything good that ever happens in the career of a player who was coached by Keenan for even the slightest amount of time is ALWAYS directly attributed to Keenan, regardless of how long it's been since Keean coached said player.
---Yeah, Keenan's supporters do tend to do that, don't they? Because of '94, I think a lot of Ranger fans tend to romanticize Keenan. However, he really hasn't done much since leaving New York besides tick a lot of people off and lose a lot of games. As was pointed out earlier Bertuzzi really blossomed under Crawford, and I saw an interview with Pronger himself in which he said that Quenville, not Keenan, made him the player he is today. But the bigger issue I have with Keenan is that Crawford and Quenville have actually had a great deal more success with those teams than Keenan did.

I actually think that his work in Florida may be his best since leaving the Rangers, it's the first job he's had since then in which his team has actually fared significantly better under him than under his predecessor. It will be interesting to see how long he can maintain that.

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