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Greatest Forwards of All Time #11

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest forward of all time? #11
Stan Mikita 11 15.49%
Mike Bossy 7 9.86%
Bobby Clarke 5 7.04%
Jaromir Jagr 22 30.99%
Bryan Trottier 7 9.86%
Steve Yzerman 12 16.90%
Ted Lindsay 0 0%
Marcel Dionne 4 5.63%
Syl Apps 2 2.82%
Milt Schmidt 1 1.41%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-10-2006, 01:44 PM
  #1
canucksfan
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Greatest Forwards of All Time #11

Mark Messier won with 17 votes. Milt Schmidt will be added next. I am going to vote for Mikita again. I think he must be one of the most underrated players. Also add Henri Richard.

#1 Gretzky(64.71%)
#2 Lemieux(63.77%)
#3 Howe(63.41%)
#4 Richard(31.58%)
#5 Beliveau(53.49%)
#6 Hull(28.81%)
#7 LaFleur(72.73% won tiebreaker)
#8 Esposito(34.88%)
#9 Morenz(23.81%)
#10 Messier(24.29%)

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Old
03-10-2006, 02:44 PM
  #2
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Mikita is the best of the lot. 2 Harts, 4 Hart Ross, 2 Lady Byng. Add Charlie Conacher.


Last edited by Weztex: 03-11-2006 at 02:41 PM.
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Old
03-10-2006, 04:01 PM
  #3
Evilo
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Trottier again.

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03-10-2006, 04:14 PM
  #4
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Marcel Dionne should be a lock. Look at his stats for cryin' out loud.

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Old
03-10-2006, 04:35 PM
  #5
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Voted Jagr, add Sakic.

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Old
03-10-2006, 04:39 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake Plastic Sabre
Marcel Dionne should be a lock. Look at his stats for cryin' out loud.
Those 45 points in 49 playoff games? Those stats, right? And stats are the only measure of greatness, right? Why don't we just guarantee Ron Francis No. 12 on this poll, since he's fourth all-time in points.

The true greats consistently elevate their play in the playoffs. The playoffs are far more relevant and important than the regular season could ever be. Dionne never elevated his play in the post-season. That's why he shouldn't be voted in until somewhere around No. 25.

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Old
03-10-2006, 05:48 PM
  #7
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I vote for Trotts. Add another old school guy like Malone or Newsy Lalonde.

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03-10-2006, 06:23 PM
  #8
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Voted for Bobby Clarke.

Add "phantom" Joe Malone.

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Old
03-10-2006, 07:00 PM
  #9
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Voted Mikita again. a very underrated player. Would like to see Max bentley added next but am Ok with Charlie Conacher, Joe Malone or Newsy Lalonde

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03-10-2006, 07:48 PM
  #10
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mike bossy

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Old
03-10-2006, 09:47 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fake Plastic Sabre
Marcel Dionne should be a lock. Look at his stats for cryin' out loud.
Dionne is probably the worst player on this list (not that there is any shame in that).

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Old
03-11-2006, 05:10 AM
  #12
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Add Ron Francis.

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Old
03-11-2006, 10:13 AM
  #13
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no wonder that Kurri isnt even on that list, he's so underrated..
He is third on playoff points.

*Edit*

Best Forward (EJC 78)
All-Star Team (EJC 78; NHL 84-85, 86-87; WC 91, 94; European Cup 94-95)
Finnish Player of the Year (1982-90)
Best Finnish Forward (WC 82)
NHL All-Star Game (82-83, 84-85, 85-86, 87-88, 88-89, 89-90, 92-93)
Two short-handed goals in the same period in a playoff game against Chicago (83)
Stanley Cup Champion (84, 85, 87, 88, 90)
Second All-Star Team (NHL 83-84, 85-86, 88-89)
Top goalscorer (NHL 85-86; NHL playoffs 83-84, 84-85, 86-87, 87-88)
Second in points after Wayne Gretzky (NHL 84-85, 86-87)
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy (NHL 84-85)
Scored three goals in four NHL playoff games (84-85, NHL record)
Playoff goal record (NHL 84-85)
12 goals and 3 hattricks in one playoff series (NHL 84-85, a record)
Three power-play goals in a NHL playoff game (86-87, NHL record)
Edmonton Athlete of the Year (89)
1000 points in the NHL 02.01.1990
100th playoff goal as the second player after Gretzky (NHL 89-90)
First Finnish forward in a WC All-Star Team (91)
Top scorer WC 1991
500th NHL goal as the first European player 17.10.1992
600th NHL goal as the first European player 23.12.1997
SM-liiga Player of the Month (Dec 94)
Top Scorer (European Cup 94-95)
President's Trophy (1994)
Golden Stick
Member of the IIHF Hall of Fame
Member of the NHL Hall of Fame

and more..


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Old
03-11-2006, 01:18 PM
  #14
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I'd put Kurri over Yzerman. I'd put Francis over Yzerman as well.

I love Yzerman, but his name really should not be on the list right now.
All the others are deserving. He's not quite in that group IMO.

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Old
03-11-2006, 03:55 PM
  #15
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
Mark Messier won with 17 votes. Milt Schmidt will be added next. I am going to vote for Mikita again. I think he must be one of the most underrated players. Also add Henri Richard.

#1 Gretzky(64.71%)
#2 Lemieux(63.77%)
#3 Howe(63.41%)
#4 Richard(31.58%)
#5 Beliveau(53.49%)
#6 Hull(28.81%)
#7 LaFleur(72.73% won tiebreaker)
#8 Esposito(34.88%)
#9 Morenz(23.81%)
#10 Messier(24.29%)
The list looks fairly accurate. I think it`s a joke that Lemieux`s ahead of Howe and I think Esposito`s a little too high but all in all it`s better than most lists.

I was going to vote for Bobby Clarke again, but since it`s pretty much a two player race based on the votes so far I`ll take Stan Mikita as he`s more deserving than Jagr.

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Old
03-11-2006, 06:47 PM
  #16
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I am not trying to incite a riot here, but can someone please explain why they believe Stan Mikita was clearly better than Jaromir Jagr?

Jagr has won 5 Rosses to Mikita's 4
Jagr has won 2 Pearsons and a Hart, Mikita has 2 Harts (no Pearson available)
Jagr has won 2 Cups, Mikita 1 Cup
Jagr's peak scoring seasons are as good or better (much better if adjusted for era), he already has more goals, will soon have more points, and his playoff totals are already as good or better too. His points per game in both regular season and playoffs are higher too.
Mikita played on some pretty stacked Chicago teams (Bobby Hull, Glenn Hall, Pierre Pilote, etc.), which it seems were generally as good or better than the teams Jagr has played on, so I don't see an "if only he played for a better team" argument.
Keep in mind that Jagr is still at a level where he can lead the league in scoring and, barring injury, still has at minimum 2-3 more productive seasons left.


So, with all respect to Stan, how is he clearly better than Jagr?

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Old
03-11-2006, 08:11 PM
  #17
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Funny, I was just about to make a post about how is Jagr clearly than Mikita? Short answer: Mikita is better due to a vastly superior playoff record. In more detail, here's how I compare them.

Goal-scoring: Extremely close. Mikita never led the league in goals but was runner up 3 times. Jagr never led the league in goals but was runner up 3 times as well. Mikita was in the top five 6 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top ten 7 times, Jagr 7 times.

Playmaking: Close, but slight edge to Mikita. Mikita led the league in assists three times; same for Jagr. Mikita was in the top five 8 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top ten 10 times, Jagr 8 times.

Overall offense: Comparable. Mikita led the league in scoring 4 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top five 9 times (all consecutive), Jagr 7 times. Mikita was in the top ten 9 times, Jagr 9 times.

Defense: By any reasonable standard, Mikita is far superior to Jagr defensively. Mikita routinely played on the penalty kill, Jagr doesnít. Mikita is counted on to shut down opponents with his strength and smart positional play, Jagr isnít. Quite simply, Mikita is one of the best all-around forwards in NHL history (along with Howe, Clarke, Trottier and Beliveau). Jagr isnít close.

Playoff performance: Huge edge to Mikita. Mikita has 1 Conn Smythe (http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml), Jagr has none. On a per-game basis, Jagrís scoring drops 22% in the playoffs; Mikitaís drops 9%. Jagr has never had a playoff run as dominant as Mikita in 1962. In Mikitaís best playoff years, he was 1st, 4th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 8th and 8th in playoff scoring. In Jagrís best years, he was 3rd, 4th and 7th. He was never again in the top ten. Jagr never led the playoffs in either goals or assists, Mikita has led the playoffs in both.

Awards: Jagr has 5 Art Ross trophies, Mikita 4. Mikita has 2 Hart trophies, Jagr 1. Jagr has 2 Pearsonís, but that award wasnít around during Mikitaís prime. Mikita has 8 all-star selections (6-2), Jagr has 7 (6-1). Mikita has 1 Conn Smythe, Jagr has 0. Overall itís close, but I prefer Mikitaís Hart, Conn Smythe and all-star selection over Jagrís extra scoring title.

Their offense and their awards are comparable. I give Mikita the edge based on defense and vastly superior playoff performance. Jagr may catch up to Mikita before the end of his career, but we have no way of knowing.

====

Add Bill Cook.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 03-11-2006 at 08:19 PM.
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Old
03-11-2006, 08:22 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
I'd put Kurri over Yzerman. I'd put Francis over Yzerman as well.

I love Yzerman, but his name really should not be on the list right now.
All the others are deserving. He's not quite in that group IMO.
Yzerman was significantly better than Francis.

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Old
03-11-2006, 08:33 PM
  #19
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I know I voted for Yzerman last time but after thinking about it and a little research I decided to vote for Jagr now. I probably just voted for Yzerman last time because I was a little biased.

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Old
03-11-2006, 09:42 PM
  #20
pappyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Funny, I was just about to make a post about how is Jagr clearly than Mikita? Short answer: Mikita is better due to a vastly superior playoff record. In more detail, here's how I compare them.

Goal-scoring: Extremely close. Mikita never led the league in goals but was runner up 3 times. Jagr never led the league in goals but was runner up 3 times as well. Mikita was in the top five 6 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top ten 7 times, Jagr 7 times.

Playmaking: Close, but slight edge to Mikita. Mikita led the league in assists three times; same for Jagr. Mikita was in the top five 8 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top ten 10 times, Jagr 8 times.

Overall offense: Comparable. Mikita led the league in scoring 4 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top five 9 times (all consecutive), Jagr 7 times. Mikita was in the top ten 9 times, Jagr 9 times.

Defense: By any reasonable standard, Mikita is far superior to Jagr defensively. Mikita routinely played on the penalty kill, Jagr doesnít. Mikita is counted on to shut down opponents with his strength and smart positional play, Jagr isnít. Quite simply, Mikita is one of the best all-around forwards in NHL history (along with Howe, Clarke, Trottier and Beliveau). Jagr isnít close.

Playoff performance: Huge edge to Mikita. Mikita has 1 Conn Smythe (http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml), Jagr has none. On a per-game basis, Jagrís scoring drops 22% in the playoffs; Mikitaís drops 9%. Jagr has never had a playoff run as dominant as Mikita in 1962. In Mikitaís best playoff years, he was 1st, 4th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 8th and 8th in playoff scoring. In Jagrís best years, he was 3rd, 4th and 7th. He was never again in the top ten. Jagr never led the playoffs in either goals or assists, Mikita has led the playoffs in both.

Awards: Jagr has 5 Art Ross trophies, Mikita 4. Mikita has 2 Hart trophies, Jagr 1. Jagr has 2 Pearsonís, but that award wasnít around during Mikitaís prime. Mikita has 8 all-star selections (6-2), Jagr has 7 (6-1). Mikita has 1 Conn Smythe, Jagr has 0. Overall itís close, but I prefer Mikitaís Hart, Conn Smythe and all-star selection over Jagrís extra scoring title.

Their offense and their awards are comparable. I give Mikita the edge based on defense and vastly superior playoff performance. Jagr may catch up to Mikita before the end of his career, but we have no way of knowing.

====

Add Bill Cook.
Well said and I agree with you but the youngsters are still voting Yagr.

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Old
03-11-2006, 10:03 PM
  #21
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Went for Yzerman. Add Kurri, it is sad that he is still not there. Stats are not the only truth, I know, but check out his scoring the year after 99 left Oilers. They may not say much more than one thing: he wasn't Wayne's sideshow. The greatest European to play in the NHL so far.

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Old
03-11-2006, 10:33 PM
  #22
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Funny, I was just about to make a post about how is Jagr clearly than Mikita? Short answer: Mikita is better due to a vastly superior playoff record. In more detail, here's how I compare them.

Goal-scoring: Extremely close. Mikita never led the league in goals but was runner up 3 times. Jagr never led the league in goals but was runner up 3 times as well. Mikita was in the top five 6 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top ten 7 times, Jagr 7 times.

Playmaking: Close, but slight edge to Mikita. Mikita led the league in assists three times; same for Jagr. Mikita was in the top five 8 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top ten 10 times, Jagr 8 times.

Overall offense: Comparable. Mikita led the league in scoring 4 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top five 9 times (all consecutive), Jagr 7 times. Mikita was in the top ten 9 times, Jagr 9 times.

Defense: By any reasonable standard, Mikita is far superior to Jagr defensively. Mikita routinely played on the penalty kill, Jagr doesnít. Mikita is counted on to shut down opponents with his strength and smart positional play, Jagr isnít. Quite simply, Mikita is one of the best all-around forwards in NHL history (along with Howe, Clarke, Trottier and Beliveau). Jagr isnít close.

Playoff performance: Huge edge to Mikita. Mikita has 1 Conn Smythe (http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml), Jagr has none. On a per-game basis, Jagrís scoring drops 22% in the playoffs; Mikitaís drops 9%. Jagr has never had a playoff run as dominant as Mikita in 1962. In Mikitaís best playoff years, he was 1st, 4th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 8th and 8th in playoff scoring. In Jagrís best years, he was 3rd, 4th and 7th. He was never again in the top ten. Jagr never led the playoffs in either goals or assists, Mikita has led the playoffs in both.

Awards: Jagr has 5 Art Ross trophies, Mikita 4. Mikita has 2 Hart trophies, Jagr 1. Jagr has 2 Pearsonís, but that award wasnít around during Mikitaís prime. Mikita has 8 all-star selections (6-2), Jagr has 7 (6-1). Mikita has 1 Conn Smythe, Jagr has 0. Overall itís close, but I prefer Mikitaís Hart, Conn Smythe and all-star selection over Jagrís extra scoring title.

Their offense and their awards are comparable. I give Mikita the edge based on defense and vastly superior playoff performance. Jagr may catch up to Mikita before the end of his career, but we have no way of knowing.
Excellent post. You should do this whenever there`s one of those debates about two players on here if you have time.

The link for the retro Conn Smythe winners doesn`t work; does anybody have the list?

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Old
03-11-2006, 10:54 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Excellent post. You should do this whenever there`s one of those debates about two players on here if you have time.

The link for the retro Conn Smythe winners doesn`t work; does anybody have the list?
The link will work if you remove the bracket from the end.

http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml

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03-12-2006, 01:35 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Funny, I was just about to make a post about how is Jagr clearly than Mikita? Short answer: Mikita is better due to a vastly superior playoff record. In more detail, here's how I compare them.

Goal-scoring: Extremely close. Mikita never led the league in goals but was runner up 3 times. Jagr never led the league in goals but was runner up 3 times as well. Mikita was in the top five 6 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top ten 7 times, Jagr 7 times.

Playmaking: Close, but slight edge to Mikita. Mikita led the league in assists three times; same for Jagr. Mikita was in the top five 8 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top ten 10 times, Jagr 8 times.

Overall offense: Comparable. Mikita led the league in scoring 4 times, Jagr 5 times. Mikita was in the top five 9 times (all consecutive), Jagr 7 times. Mikita was in the top ten 9 times, Jagr 9 times.

Defense: By any reasonable standard, Mikita is far superior to Jagr defensively. Mikita routinely played on the penalty kill, Jagr doesnít. Mikita is counted on to shut down opponents with his strength and smart positional play, Jagr isnít. Quite simply, Mikita is one of the best all-around forwards in NHL history (along with Howe, Clarke, Trottier and Beliveau). Jagr isnít close.

Playoff performance: Huge edge to Mikita. Mikita has 1 Conn Smythe (http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml), Jagr has none. On a per-game basis, Jagrís scoring drops 22% in the playoffs; Mikitaís drops 9%. Jagr has never had a playoff run as dominant as Mikita in 1962. In Mikitaís best playoff years, he was 1st, 4th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 8th and 8th in playoff scoring. In Jagrís best years, he was 3rd, 4th and 7th. He was never again in the top ten. Jagr never led the playoffs in either goals or assists, Mikita has led the playoffs in both.

Awards: Jagr has 5 Art Ross trophies, Mikita 4. Mikita has 2 Hart trophies, Jagr 1. Jagr has 2 Pearsonís, but that award wasnít around during Mikitaís prime. Mikita has 8 all-star selections (6-2), Jagr has 7 (6-1). Mikita has 1 Conn Smythe, Jagr has 0. Overall itís close, but I prefer Mikitaís Hart, Conn Smythe and all-star selection over Jagrís extra scoring title.

Their offense and their awards are comparable. I give Mikita the edge based on defense and vastly superior playoff performance. Jagr may catch up to Mikita before the end of his career, but we have no way of knowing.

====

Add Bill Cook.
Bingo. The playoff performance aspect says it all. Playoffs are far more important than the regular season. That's when you really separate the really good players from the great players. Many in the game will tell you that the true hallmark of greatness is your ability to consistently elevate your play when the games really count. (Not the only indicator of greatness, if it was, Dionne and Gartner would not be in the HHOF). Mikita was a much better playoff performer than Luongo. Yet some people seem to think the best should be evaluated on awards, or fantasy weighted-for-era statistics that really have little to no relevance. And then there are the lazies who say "I can't vote for a guy who I didn't see play."

And Mikita was a much more physical player than Jagr, too. In his first two Art Ross Trophies seasons, he had his two highest PIM seasons. (He actually led the league in PIMs his first two years). While he did win a couple Lady Byng trophies, he still wasn't afraid to be involved physically.

Mikita is definitely the best European-born player of all time.

While I don't think he's the best forward not on the list, to avoid a vote split, add Joe Malone.

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Old
03-12-2006, 03:46 AM
  #25
Evilo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Yzerman was significantly better than Francis.
I disagree. Francis was significantly better than Yzerman. Stats show it, and in this case, they don't lie.
Francis was productive on weaker teams than Pittsburgh, so don't start with your "Mario shadow" argument

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