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Greatest Forwards of All Time #11

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest forward of all time? #11
Stan Mikita 11 15.49%
Mike Bossy 7 9.86%
Bobby Clarke 5 7.04%
Jaromir Jagr 22 30.99%
Bryan Trottier 7 9.86%
Steve Yzerman 12 16.90%
Ted Lindsay 0 0%
Marcel Dionne 4 5.63%
Syl Apps 2 2.82%
Milt Schmidt 1 1.41%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-12-2006, 07:13 AM
  #26
John Flyers Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
I disagree. Francis was significantly better than Yzerman. Stats show it, and in this case, they don't lie.
Francis was productive on weaker teams than Pittsburgh, so don't start with your "Mario shadow" argument
The stats show it ???

Yzerman - 1.16 ppg
Francis - 1.04 ppg

Playoffs
Yzerman - 0.94 ppg
Francis - 0.84 ppg

Yzerman - Conn Smythe

Seasons with more than 101 points
Francis - 1
Yzerman - 6 consecutive where he averaged 122 points

Both won what were IMO bogus Selke awards. They were both good all-around players, but neither was ever the best defensive forward in the game.

Yzerman won a Pearson. Francis never won a major award.

Francis was a key member on two Cup winners, Yzerman was the captain and leader of three Cup winners.

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Old
03-12-2006, 07:14 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Excellent post. You should do this whenever there`s one of those debates about two players on here if you have time.

The link for the retro Conn Smythe winners doesn`t work; does anybody have the list?
To be fair here, it's way more difficult to win a Stanley Cup and get further in the playoffs now than when there were so few teams.

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Old
03-12-2006, 11:00 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
I'd put Kurri over Yzerman. I'd put Francis over Yzerman as well.

I love Yzerman, but his name really should not be on the list right now.
All the others are deserving. He's not quite in that group IMO.
I'd say Yzerman is BY FAR the best of the players on this list not named Bossy! He is certainly ahead of Messier, for one. Although I like Mikita's name on here.

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Old
03-12-2006, 12:43 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
The stats show it ???

Yzerman - 1.16 ppg
Francis - 1.04 ppg

Playoffs
Yzerman - 0.94 ppg
Francis - 0.84 ppg

Yzerman - Conn Smythe

Seasons with more than 101 points
Francis - 1
Yzerman - 6 consecutive where he averaged 122 points

Both won what were IMO bogus Selke awards. They were both good all-around players, but neither was ever the best defensive forward in the game.

Yzerman won a Pearson. Francis never won a major award.

Francis was a key member on two Cup winners, Yzerman was the captain and leader of three Cup winners.
Yzerman : 1741 points
Francis : 1798
Francis never won an award? He won 1 Selke and 3 Lady Byngs.

Yzerman started as an individual player, needing 6 or 7 years in the league to finally realize how an all around player needs to play.
It was obvious from the beginning for Francis.

Yzerman beneffited from over a dozen years of an immense talent around him. Francis was an allstar AND a team player on every team. He lead Carolina and Hartford deep in the playoffs when Yzerman needed a supporting cast to even go past the first round.

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Old
03-12-2006, 12:45 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggs 10
I'd say Yzerman is BY FAR the best of the players on this list not named Bossy! He is certainly ahead of Messier, for one. Although I like Mikita's name on here.
Messier>Yzerman
Not even close.
And Trottier > Yzerman as well.

I can't believe how underrated Trottier is.
He won 6 Stanley Cups, was the captain of a dynasty, has a better point per game average than Yzerman, Francis or Mikita, while being a much tougher customer.

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Old
03-12-2006, 12:46 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnmullin
To be fair here, it's way more difficult to win a Stanley Cup and get further in the playoffs now than when there were so few teams.
Pre 1967, the blackhawks, Bruins and Rangers sure had a tough time winning cups so it wasn't that easy. Also the playoffs only had 2 rounds. Advancing far into the playoffs ment you got to the final and the second round.

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03-12-2006, 12:46 PM
  #32
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And he also won a Hart, an Art Ross, a Calder and a Conn Smythe.

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03-12-2006, 12:50 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnmullin
To be fair here, it's way more difficult to win a Stanley Cup and get further in the playoffs now than when there were so few teams.
It's not about advancing deep into the playoffs. It's about elevating your game in the post-season. Mikita consistently did that. Bossy consistently did that. Trottier consistently did that. Clarke consistently did that. Jagr did not. That's why they are all better than Jagr.

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Old
03-12-2006, 12:54 PM
  #34
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Not true. Apart from 2001, Jagr always has elevated his game in the playoffs.
Jagr was the most dominant player of the defensive era. EASILY.

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Old
03-12-2006, 01:07 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Yzerman : 1741 points
Francis : 1798
Francis never won an award? He won 1 Selke and 3 Lady Byngs.

Yzerman started as an individual player, needing 6 or 7 years in the league to finally realize how an all around player needs to play.
It was obvious from the beginning for Francis.

Yzerman beneffited from over a dozen years of an immense talent around him. Francis was an allstar AND a team player on every team. He lead Carolina and Hartford deep in the playoffs when Yzerman needed a supporting cast to even go past the first round.
Ron Francis
1981-82 - CALDER: 10th 3 (0-0-3)
1985-86 HART: T10th 1 (0-0-1); ALL-STAR CENTER: 9th 2 (0-0-2)
1986-87 HART: 9th 3 (0-1-0); ALL-STAR CENTER: 6th 3 (0-1-0)
1989-90 SELKE: 5th 32 (4-2-6); LADY BYNG: T18th 1 (0-0-1)
1990-91 SELKE: T21st 1 (0-0-1)
1992-93 SELKE: 6th 13 (0-3-4)
1993-94 SELKE: 6th 17 (0-4-5)
1994-95 SELKE: 1st 50 (7-4-3); LADY BYNG: 1st 50 (6-6-2); ALL-STAR CENTER: 3rd 18 (0-4-6)
1995-96 SELKE: 2nd 255 (12-15-3-5-0); LADY BYNG: 9th 40 (2-1-2-0-3); ALL-STAR CENTER: 6th 6 (0-1-3); A-S LEFT WING: T5th 5 (1-0-0)
1996-97 SELKE: 8th 72 (2-2-6-2-2); LADY BYNG: 4th 103 (0-6-6-9-4); ALL-STAR CENTER: T8th 1 (0-0-1)
1997-98 HART: T15th 6 (0-0-0-2-0); SELKE: 4th 96 (2-4-6-6-0); LADY BYNG: 1st 352 (20-12-11-4-1); ALL-STAR CENTER: 3rd 87 (7-12-16)
1999-00 SELKE: 12th 28 (1-0-2-1-5); LADY BYNG: 9th 50 (3-0-1-2-9)
2000-01 SELKE: T43rd 1 (0-0-0-0-1); LADY BYNG: 8th 81 (5-0-4-3-2)
2001-02 HART: 6th 48 (1-2-3-2-3); SELKE: 4th 96 (2-4-6-6-0); LADY BYNG: 1st 427 (28-13-7-6-3); ALL-STAR CENTER: 3rd 85 (7-14-8)
2002-03 SELKE: T38th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); LADY BYNG: 8th 72 (1-6-4-0-0)
2003-04 LADY BYNG: 10th 100 (1-6-5-5-8)

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Old
03-12-2006, 01:44 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Not true. Apart from 2001, Jagr always has elevated his game in the playoffs.
Jagr was the most dominant player of the defensive era. EASILY.
Jagr has played well in the playoffs, I don't see Mikita as a much better (if any) playoff performer. It's definitely harder with 4 playoff rounds and now 30 teams, after an 80+ game schedule.

One player getting no respect is Joe Sakic. I think he compares favorably (or at least even) against Mikita, Yzerman, Francis, and Dionne, among others.

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Old
03-12-2006, 01:47 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math
One player getting no respect is Joe Sakic. I think he compares favorably (or at least even) against Mikita, Yzerman, Francis, and Dionne, among others.
Disagree. Sakic is not as good as these guys IMO.

It's weird because often oldies tend to be overrated. But on this site, though Jagr is still underrated, the all time greats like Trottier, Dionne or Francis get forgotten for Yzerman or Sakic because they won the cup more recently.

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Old
03-12-2006, 02:38 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Yzerman : 1741 points
Francis : 1798
Francis never won an award? He won 1 Selke and 3 Lady Byngs.

Yzerman started as an individual player, needing 6 or 7 years in the league to finally realize how an all around player needs to play.
It was obvious from the beginning for Francis.

Yzerman beneffited from over a dozen years of an immense talent around him. Francis was an allstar AND a team player on every team. He lead Carolina and Hartford deep in the playoffs when Yzerman needed a supporting cast to even go past the first round.
Francis played more games, and that's the only reason he has more points.

Both won the Selke.

Yzerman's Conn Smythe & Pearson >>>>>> Francis 3 Lady Byng's

During Francis 9 years in Hartford he won a grand total of 1 playoff series and never past the first round. 22 points in 33 games

During Yzerman's first 8 years in Detroit, when he played on teams that lacked talent they won two playoff series and made it to a conference finals. 47 points in 39 games.

Convenient that you talked about Yzerman needing a supporting cast, and failed to mention the ultra talented team Francis joined in Pittssburgh. Both guys needed a surrounding cast to win the Cup.

Yzerman a career +198, five times a minus player.
Francis a career -10, twelve times a minus player.

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Old
03-12-2006, 03:30 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Disagree. Sakic is not as good as these guys IMO.

It's weird because often oldies tend to be overrated. But on this site, though Jagr is still underrated, the all time greats like Trottier, Dionne or Francis get forgotten for Yzerman or Sakic because they won the cup more recently.
I don't think Sakic would be out of place on this list at all.

Players of the last 10-12 years may be underrated due to the low-scoring era. Jagr and probably Sakic would end up in the top 5 in career goals and points, if all players' totals were adjusted for era. Forsberg, Lindros, etc. also would have much higher career totals, but would still be far behind a ton of players.

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Old
03-12-2006, 09:42 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math
I don't think Sakic would be out of place on this list at all.

Players of the last 10-12 years may be underrated due to the low-scoring era. Jagr and probably Sakic would end up in the top 5 in career goals and points, if all players' totals were adjusted for era. Forsberg, Lindros, etc. also would have much higher career totals, but would still be far behind a ton of players.
Greatest NHL point scorers, adjusted for era: Of course, active players can still move up and, based on this season so far, Jagr definitely will.

1 Wayne Gretzky
2 Gordie Howe
3 Mario Lemieux
4 Phil Esposito
5 Stan Mikita
6 Maurice Richard
7 Bobby Hull
8 Cy Denneny
9 Jaromir Jagr
10 Jean Beliveau
11 Andy Bathgate
12 Bobby Orr
13 Marcel Dionne
14 Howie Morenz
15 Ted Lindsay
16 Guy Lafleur
17 Babe Dye
18 Bill Cowley
19 Mike Bossy
20 Joe Sakic
21 Doug Bentley
22 Max Bentley
23 Bill Cook
24 Charlie Conacher
25 Newsy Lalonde
26 Bernie Geoffrion
27 Frank Boucher
28 Joe Malone
29 Elmer Lach
30 Peter Stastny
31 Harvey Jackson
32 Sweeney Schriner
33 Nels Stewart
34 Aurel Joliat
35 Peter Forsberg
36 Toe Blake
37 Marty Barry
38 Syl Apps, Sr.
39 Bryan Trottier
40 Teemu Selanne
41 Norm Ullman
42 Paul Coffey
43 Sid Abel
44 Bobby Clarke
45 Jari Kurri
46 Markus Naslund
47 Mark Messier
48 Jean Ratelle
49 Steve Yzerman
50 Adam Oates


Greatest NHL goal scorers adjusted for era:

1 Gordie Howe
2 Bobby Hull
3 Maurice Richard
4 Phil Esposito
5 Wayne Gretzky
6 Mike Bossy
7 Cy Denneny
8 Cecil Dye
9 Nels Stewart
10 Mario Lemieux
11 Howie Morenz
12 Jean Beliveau
13 Charlie Conacher
14 Brett Hull
15 Roy Conacher
16 Bill Cook
Frank Mahovlich
18 Ted Lindsay
19 Pavel Bure
Stan Mikita
21 Guy Lafleur
22 Bernie Geoffrion
23 Marcel Dionne
Jaromir Jagr
25 Teemu Selanne
26 Bryan Hextall
27 Peter Bondra
28 Gordie Drillon
Joe Malone
30 Newsy Lalonde
31 Steve Yzerman
32 Jari Kurri
33 Harvey Jackson
34 Aurel Joliat
35 Dickie Moore
36 Camille Henry
Michel Goulet
38 Norm Ullman
Tim Kerr
40 Cecil Dillon
41 Marty Barry
Doug Bentley
43 David Schriner
44 Andy Bathgate
John LeClair
46 Jarome Iginla
Hector Blake
48 Herb Cain
Lanny McDonald
50 Rick Martin
51 Alexander Mogilny
52 Odie Cleghorn
53 Joe Sakic
Billy Burch
Max Bentley
Sid Abel
57 Steve Shutt
Reg Noble
Ken Hodge
Ed Litzenberger
61 Gaye Stewart
62 Sid Smith
Frank Nighbor
Carson Cooper
Mickey Redmond
Charlie Simmer
Lynn Patrick
68 Luc Robitaille
69 Ken Wharram
Bill Boucher
71 Ralph Weiland
Bill Mosienko
Owen Nolan
Keith Tkachuk
Tony Amonte
Wally Hergesheimer


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 03-12-2006 at 09:47 PM.
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Old
03-12-2006, 10:20 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Messier>Yzerman
Not even close.
And Trottier > Yzerman as well.

I can't believe how underrated Trottier is.
He won 6 Stanley Cups, was the captain of a dynasty, has a better point per game average than Yzerman, Francis or Mikita, while being a much tougher customer.
Trotts was my first hockey hero, but you're off on two things here. Potvin was the captain of that dynasty and, from what I've read about him, Mikita may have been a bit tougher.

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03-12-2006, 10:43 PM
  #42
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I don't see how you can be tougher than Trottier. He was a warrior.

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Old
03-12-2006, 10:45 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
During Francis 9 years in Hartford he won a grand total of 1 playoff series and never past the first round. 22 points in 33 games

During Yzerman's first 8 years in Detroit, when he played on teams that lacked talent they won two playoff series and made it to a conference finals. 47 points in 39 games.

Convenient that you talked about Yzerman needing a supporting cast, and failed to mention the ultra talented team Francis joined in Pittssburgh. Both guys needed a surrounding cast to win the Cup.
Convenient you forgot Francis' tenure with Carolina, that he lead to the conference finals even though he had no supporting cast.
I said Francis didn't need a supporting cast to bring his team to the second round, I didn't talk about Pittsburgh (though you could argue he has that super supporting cast for a shorter period).

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03-13-2006, 01:38 PM
  #44
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Jagr went too early. I have four players ahead of him. Mikita, Trottier, Clarke and Bossy are better than Jagr. Jagr has had fantastic regular seasons. However, where Jagr doesn't match up to the all time greats is the playoffs.

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03-13-2006, 05:33 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
Jagr went too early. I have four players ahead of him. Mikita, Trottier, Clarke and Bossy are better than Jagr. Jagr has had fantastic regular seasons. However, where Jagr doesn't match up to the all time greats is the playoffs.
Well I know we disagreed on where the Moose should have been but I will say that this post is spot on canucksfan.

This is exactly the same 4 I have in front of Jagr except that my order is Clarke, Trotts, Mikita and Bossy.

Also, Lindsay seems to be underappreciated.

I think the fact that Jagr is more current--eg. leading the league in scoring at the moment, has influenced some people. I may disagree with the opinions of some but their opinions are their own.

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03-13-2006, 05:54 PM
  #46
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IMO, Jagr doesn't fit among the top 15 forwards ever. And unless he has that memorable playoff, which all of the all-time greats have, when he elevates his play in the post-season beyond any level imaginable and carries his team on his back, he shouldn't crack the top 15 forwards.

There are nine centres - Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau, Esposito, Mikita, Trottier, Clarke, Morenz and Messier - four right wings - Howe, Richard, Bossy and Lafleur - and two left wings - Hull and Lindsay - who should be ahead of Jagr without question.

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03-13-2006, 06:01 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math
Mikita played on some pretty stacked Chicago teams (Bobby Hull, Glenn Hall, Pierre Pilote, etc.), which it seems were generally as good or better than the teams Jagr has played on, so I don't see an "if only he played for a better team" argument.
Uhhh, Jagr was on a team that boasted Lemieux, Francis, Coffey, J. Mullen, Recchi, L. Murphy, etc. Hardly a less-talented squad...

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Old
03-14-2006, 10:35 AM
  #48
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Jagr should be around 13th-14th best forward of all time IMO as of now. His career's not over though.
I'd take Trottier, Bossy and possibly Clarke before him.

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