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Senators Success Hurting Oilers

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Old
10-25-2003, 11:35 PM
  #1
Narnia
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Senators Success Hurting Oilers

You know what's really pissing me off. The constant comparisons that's being thrown at Edmonton with Ottawa. The two organizations should never be compared. Unfortunately when you look at message boards on the Internet, that's exactly what's happening.

When Edmonton entered the league, they were forced to draft 21st overall. Basically, at that time that was last in the first round. The good thing about that year in 1979 was that year happened to be one of the strongest draft on record.

When the Senators entered the league in 1992, they were able to draft 2nd overall. the first five years the Senators were in the league, they drafted, 2, 1, 3, 1, 1 overall. In the Oilers first five years, they drafted 21, 6, 8 20, 19 overall.

The Senators have had 6 top 5 draft picks compared to the Oilers 1. That's right, they've had just 1 top 5 draft pick and 6 top 10 draft pick. To compare the Oilers drafting to the Senators is just wrong considering where the Senators drafted the first 5 years they were in the league compared to Oilers.

Another thing that may have hurt the Oilers is that they become so good so quick as an expansion team. They never had the chance to really draft high because of the early success of the team. That could be coming back to haunt them now.

I also believe the success of the Senators is hurting the Oilers. Fans see how successful the Senators are and start asking questions why the Oilers can't do the same. Remember, the Senators were a pretty bad team for about 5 years before they turned the corner and were able to have high draft picks. The Oilers never had that chance because of the early success of the organization.

Another thing that I believe that isn't fair is the amount of flak that this team has been getting since 2000. It seems to be getting worser and worser each year. We're all fans and have the right to be critical when the team doesn't perform. But does that really mean that we have to criticize the team after they lose until the next game.

I admit that it's hard for me to be critical of the team as I've been following them since the WHA and the Oilers had a lot worser teams and weren't criticized as much as this year. I get frustrated as much as anybody but I love this team too much. I started cheering for them in my mid-teens.

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Old
10-26-2003, 12:15 AM
  #2
momentai
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Couple of questions here. I cannot fathom your reasoning here. What does it matter when both teams entered the league? When people are comparing the franchises, they are comparing the current rosters and what it took to get the club to its current position.

In 1993 the Oilers took Jason Arnott 7th overall.

In 1994 with the 4th and 6th picks overall, the Oilers selected Jason Bonsignore and Ryan Smyth

In 1995 with the 6th overall pick the Oilers selected Steve Kelly

In 1996 with the 6th overall pick the Oilers selected Boyd Devereaux

As you said, Ottawa has had 5 top 5 picks in the club's infancy... which got the club started. When the Oilers were in much the same position sufferring from a lack of talent and success, the Oilers had 5 picks in the top 6. Those picks look pretty high to me in the draft.

It looks to me that with the likes of Ottawa drafting the likes of Berard (who turned into Redden eventually), Yashin (who turned into Chara and Spezza), Radek Bonk, and Chris Phillips fared a lot better.

But where the most glaring differences between the two clubs comes in the success of players drafted later than the first round...
1993 - 227 overall Pavol Demitra
1994 - 139 overall Daniel Alfredsson
1996 - 136 overall Andreas Dackell, 239 overall Sami Salo
1997 - 119 overall Magnus Arvedson, 229th overall Karel Rachunek

Ottawa's success has come from incredibly adept drafting, smart trades, and good coaching... something every "small market" team should look up to. Heck, they even pulled Patrick Lalime out of the woodwork as a free agent I believe.

And, yes, the Oilers should be included in wanting to follow that kind of model. Ottawa has some good young forwards and dmen... and when some of them become expensive, there's always a Havlat or a Spezza or a Volchenkov needing more icetime. It's the kind of stability the Oilers would love to have as an organization.

But let's face it... the Oiler don't have that. Why? I'll give you one guess. DRAFTING. And that is due in large part to Barry Fraser during his last years as a member of the Oiler organization. If 2 or 3 more of those top 6 picks turned out to be solid player like Ryan Smyth did, the club would be in a lot better position. I realize now that Prendergast and company are well on their way to rectifying that but the fact remains that those futile drafting years really set us back.

I think that is really the gist of the entire Ottawa/Edmonton franchise model comparisons. Hope this helped.

I can nearly guarantee you Oiler89 that everyone loves this team to death just as much as you do. But some people are willing to voice concerns over the direction of the organization whether they be rational or not. It is done because they do not want the Oiler to take a turn for the worst.. Whether or not you want to criticize the Oilers is up to you Oiler89 but the ones that do are no less of fans than you are.

P.S. I don't believe worser is a word in the English dictionary. :p

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Old
10-26-2003, 02:08 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Couple of questions here. I cannot fathom your reasoning here. What does it matter when both teams entered the league? When people are comparing the franchises, they are comparing the current rosters and what it took to get the club to its current position.

In 1993 the Oilers took Jason Arnott 7th overall.

In 1994 with the 4th and 6th picks overall, the Oilers selected Jason Bonsignore and Ryan Smyth

In 1995 with the 6th overall pick the Oilers selected Steve Kelly

In 1996 with the 6th overall pick the Oilers selected Boyd Devereaux

As you said, Ottawa has had 5 top 5 picks in the club's infancy... which got the club started. When the Oilers were in much the same position sufferring from a lack of talent and success, the Oilers had 5 picks in the top 6. Those picks look pretty high to me in the draft.

It looks to me that with the likes of Ottawa drafting the likes of Berard (who turned into Redden eventually), Yashin (who turned into Chara and Spezza), Radek Bonk, and Chris Phillips fared a lot better.

But where the most glaring differences between the two clubs comes in the success of players drafted later than the first round...
1993 - 227 overall Pavol Demitra
1994 - 139 overall Daniel Alfredsson
1996 - 136 overall Andreas Dackell, 239 overall Sami Salo
1997 - 119 overall Magnus Arvedson, 229th overall Karel Rachunek

Ottawa's success has come from incredibly adept drafting, smart trades, and good coaching... something every "small market" team should look up to. Heck, they even pulled Patrick Lalime out of the woodwork as a free agent I believe.

And, yes, the Oilers should be included in wanting to follow that kind of model. Ottawa has some good young forwards and dmen... and when some of them become expensive, there's always a Havlat or a Spezza or a Volchenkov needing more icetime. It's the kind of stability the Oilers would love to have as an organization.

But let's face it... the Oiler don't have that. Why? I'll give you one guess. DRAFTING. And that is due in large part to Barry Fraser during his last years as a member of the Oiler organization. If 2 or 3 more of those top 6 picks turned out to be solid player like Ryan Smyth did, the club would be in a lot better position. I realize now that Prendergast and company are well on their way to rectifying that but the fact remains that those futile drafting years really set us back.

I think that is really the gist of the entire Ottawa/Edmonton franchise model comparisons. Hope this helped.

I can nearly guarantee you Oiler89 that everyone loves this team to death just as much as you do. But some people are willing to voice concerns over the direction of the organization whether they be rational or not. It is done because they do not want the Oiler to take a turn for the worst.. Whether or not you want to criticize the Oilers is up to you Oiler89 but the ones that do are no less of fans than you are.

P.S. I don't believe worser is a word in the English dictionary. :p
Very good post momentai.

Being from Ottawa, we had to endure very lean years as you all know. The Sens made some bone head moves as well. One of the good things Ottawa has done from almost the beginning was put money in "Research and Development", which is a phrase I heard one of the Kevins say during the summer.

IMO, when Sather was hear, the drafting didn't seem like if was a priority. Slats would rely on "stealing" prospects from other teams like he did with Weight and Marchant. Sather figured that good trades would make up for bad drafting.

As you stated, he Oilers have drafted as low as 4th overall, but mostly in the middle of the pack. The Sens have alot of players that were first overall, or second or third. They traded Ya$hin (2nd overall) for Spezza(1st).

Yes, they are both small-market teams, but how the current teams were built is not even comparable.

The comparison that will bug me is the Canadiens. Although they got crushed by the Sens last night, they are ahead of Edmonton IMO. It's only night games in the season, but if the Oilers don't turned things around, the Habs will win the Heritage classic.

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Old
10-26-2003, 06:52 AM
  #4
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i think the comparison is fine actually.... when people compare the teams, they are genearlly comparing them over the past 10 years, and during that time ottawa has SCHOOLED edmonton in drafting

now, i think the oilers drafting is finally coming around.... we have a bevy of young guys in the system that could be good plays, but we wont know really know for a couple years if these players are gonna pan out

imo, the REAL reason for ottawa being so far ahead of edmonton in drafting is the fact that ottawa was *so* bad for a few years..... while edmonton has strugled with mediocrity... basically if your gonna be bad, you might as well be REALLY bad and get a top 3 pick for a few years in a row, this allows you to pick some VERY good talent to rebuild your team around.... be the fact that edmonton has been picking arond 15th for the past 6-7 years, we dont get a shot at the "franchise players", we have to hope for our mid-1st round picks to work out.... this is not good, since mid 1st-round picks are a crapshoot at best most times - couple that with the fact that edmonton cant afford to keep its UFAs or get other teams UFAs and we are in a really abd position

you see other teams (like tampa bay for example) can afford to keep their players that pan out, while edmonton gets rid of them..... basically as long as the current CBA exists and edmonton keeps drafting in the middle of the pack, we will be screwed..... its a tough thing to accept, but its true... maybe we will suck thisyear and get a shot at the 1st overall in the lottery

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10-26-2003, 08:43 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadeddog
imo, the REAL reason for ottawa being so far ahead of edmonton in drafting is the fact that ottawa was *so* bad for a few years..... while edmonton has strugled with mediocrity... basically if your gonna be bad, you might as well be REALLY bad and get a top 3 pick for a few years in a row, this allows you to pick some VERY good talent to rebuild your team around.... be the fact that edmonton has been picking arond 15th for the past 6-7 years, we dont get a shot at the "franchise players",
Well, the Oilers did pick pretty high all things considered as I pointed out with 5 picks within the top 6. It just hurts that we did so poorly with them.

Besides, it's not as if the players Ottawa got from those top 3 picks are the franchise players you were talking about aside from, perhaps, Yashin. Chris Phillips is probably their #3 dman. Radek Bonk is their 1st line center but you can hardly call him a superstar. Daigle is in Minnesota trying to resurrect his career. And Berard is looking for a contract as we speak.

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10-26-2003, 09:03 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
And Berard is looking for a contract as we speak.
(Berard was traded even-up for Wade Redden before either of them played in the NHL, wasn't he?)

Anyway, I mostly agree with the overall point. The Oilers drafting prior to around 1998 was pretty horrible, and the Oilers also did a poor job of asset management during that time. That's the real reason Ottawa is so far ahead of us.

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10-26-2003, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie
(Berard was traded even-up for Wade Redden before either of them played in the NHL, wasn't he?)
Not too sure. But I think it was a 3 way trade in which Ottawa received Damian Rhodes as well.

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10-26-2003, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
Very good post momentai.

One of the good things Ottawa has done from almost the beginning was put money in "Research and Development", which is a phrase I heard one of the Kevins say during the summer.
You may have heard both Kevins say it, I'm pretty sure that I did. Apparently, it was a condition of KLo's, before becoming GM. And, was the first place he started spending.

btw - I agree with the Dr. - Very good post momentai, especially considering the time.

and - Oilers89 - You may have some valid points that deserve discussion, but you're not making a lot of sense to me. (maybe this is a 'time of day' thing too)


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10-26-2003, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Not too sure. But I think it was a 3 way trade in which Ottawa received Damian Rhodes as well.
Well, whatever it was, the Senators have Wade Redden to show for picking Berard.

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10-26-2003, 09:26 AM
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momentai
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Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie
Well, whatever it was, the Senators have Wade Redden to show for picking Berard.
I know. But it was more along the lines of trading well than picking well in that case. I think the point of my argument from before is that none of their original picks became the superstars Jadeddog was talking about.

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10-26-2003, 09:33 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by momentai
I know. But it was more along the lines of trading well than picking well in that case. I think the point of my argument from before is that none of their original picks became the superstars Jadeddog was talking about.
I just prefer to reshizzle it to something more along the lines of, high draft picks are valuable assets that can help your team, even if you trade the picks or players. Unless you're Barry Frazer.

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10-26-2003, 09:35 AM
  #12
momentai
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Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie
I just prefer to reshizzle it to something more along the lines of, high draft picks are valuable assets that can help your team, even if you trade the picks or players. Unless you're Barry Frazer.
Well, anyway you slice it... Barry Fraser hurt us pretty badly.

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10-26-2003, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceDragoon
You may have heard both Kevins say it, I'm pretty sure that I did. Apparently, it was a condition of KLo's, before becoming GM. And, was the first place he started spending.

btw - I agree with the Dr. - Very good post momentai, especially considering the time.

and - Oilers89 - You may have some valid points that deserve discussion, but you're not making a lot of sense to me. (maybe this is a 'time of day' thing too)

Basically what I was trying to say is that the success of the Senators right now is being thrown into the Oilers faces. There are comments like look how good Ottawa is. Why can't the Oilers be this good. It's frustraing that the Senators success is constantly brought up and thrown into the Oilers faces because they're not having the same success as the Senators.

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10-26-2003, 10:05 AM
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yeah i wasnt really saying that ottawa has really MADE any franchise players out of their top picks (though arguably they have)... i was more talking about how the top 3 picks or so are usually "for sure" picks.... while 5 and higher start to become more guess work and iffy..... and unless edmonton either gets lucky with their mid 1st-round picks or starts finishing near the bottom of the league, i dont see this trend stoppnig anytime soon

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10-26-2003, 10:27 AM
  #15
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Excellent posts momentai. I personally view the Ottawa franchise as a successful model which the Oilers can use as evidence to support our own approach to build via youth, drafting. Great teams like Ottawa, Detroit, New Jersey are built through the draft and investment in R & D (scouting) is critical to success. These team may indeed have missteps in the first round but overcome with steals in later rounds. By contrast, quick fix bandage approach (free agency) has not build contending teams in New York.

All hail the Senators for nurturing a patient approach to developing this Stanley Cup contending team. Let's celebrate their success and affirm this patient approach to Oiler fan nay-sayers who seek quick fix solutions to building a quality, contending hockey club.

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10-26-2003, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers89
Basically what I was trying to say is that the success of the Senators right now is being thrown into the Oilers faces. There are comments like look how good Ottawa is. Why can't the Oilers be this good. It's frustraing that the Senators success is constantly brought up and thrown into the Oilers faces because they're not having the same success as the Senators.
Well, I personally haven't seen any evidence of anyone thinking the Oilers should be as good as the Senators. Obviously, they're at different developmental levels and on different developmental tracks.

However, if I did see someone state that because of yadda, yadda, the Oil should be as successful as the Sens right now... I would consider the source. Someone who would state that, either:

a) - wants to stir things up; or
b) - clearly has difficulty concieving one thought, let alone connecting that thought to another, to start a 'thought process'.

I would feel pity for them and move on.
ok - if they were just stirring things up, I may feel the need to play a little first. :p

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