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Old
03-15-2006, 09:26 PM
  #26
True Blue
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Originally Posted by McRanger
I seriously hope this post isnt directed soley at me.
Not at all. Sorry if you got that impression, but it is late and I am putting in late hours at my job (no it is not to come an post on HF). It was just a general post.
Quote:
Not trying to start a debate here, I didnt mean anything I said as a shot at anyone. But as you said there is more than one side to every argument, and neither side is perfect.

In the end, we are all just a bunch of obsessed Ranger fans.
You make some good points, and if some feel that they are being talked down to, well....what can I do? For myself, I certainly do not try to make people feel that way.

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03-15-2006, 09:29 PM
  #27
Anthony Mauro
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Originally Posted by True Blue
And, let's be honest, I originated the term "Satherite", "Sather's army" "Sather Youth" & and used "sunshine brigade" quite often.
Good job, that's alot to be proud of. handclap woo woo

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Old
03-15-2006, 09:34 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Balej's Dance
Good job, that's alot to be proud of. handclap woo woo
"Sather Youth" is definitely the best of the bunch. You can't help but have images of jack-booted, brown-shirted fanatics kicking through your computer screen and demanding allegiance to Herr Sather and the Ranger Fatherland.

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Old
03-15-2006, 09:37 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by dedalus
But that's exactly my point. I think you'll find it extraordinarily difficult (actually I think you'll find it impossible) to find a single one of the usual critics who have called out the optimists among us and demanded that they change their position. Whether or not you like it, until you can find posts which are designed specifically to attack optimists, I don't see how you can argue the question of tolerance.

Will people react to statements within the context of a given thread? Certainly and especially if they feel they are under attack themselves, but that is quite different from making it a point to open a thread chastising posters for their views and stating that they are not "true fans" (an accusation that comes up whenever this topic comes up). Even within a thread I think you'll be hard pressed to find a critic of the team says he's "had enough" of the optimists on the board and that they should shut up or find another team to follow. Again, until you find responses within threads that go beyond name calling to tell optimists to pipe down or find another team, the question of who is more tolerant really isn't up for debate.
I dont have to look back through any threads, thank you. The optimistic crowd, mostly newbies I think, are younger and their posts are more immature. Many resort to name calling and tirades, and while some of it is comical, its rarely productive. I am not, nor was I in my response, arguing that. Who is "more tolerant" is, as you pointed out, not really up for debate, at least in my opinion. That does not mean that the "more tolerant" crowd can not be very intolerant at times. Some of this I'm sure has to do with constantly dealing with immaturity, but its still there. No side is perfect. For specifics, see my response to TB.

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Old
03-15-2006, 09:37 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Balej's Dance
Good job, that's alot to be proud of. handclap woo woo
Do I look like I am clapping myself on the back? I was trying to be sincere, but obviously that went over your heard. Read the whole thing and try to understand meaning, not just looking for whaevery suits your argument. So let's try it this way. You are the one that I was talking about that came out with the utterly assinine comment of "us" "hating on Jim Ramsey". That was as idiotic as it got. That is the only reason I even remember it.

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Old
03-15-2006, 10:12 PM
  #31
dedalus
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Originally Posted by McRanger
That does not mean that the "more tolerant" crowd can not be very intolerant at times. Some of this I'm sure has to do with constantly dealing with immaturity, but its still there. No side is perfect. For specifics, see my response to TB.
Two things:
First: If you want to say that the critics of this team can be very intolerant at times, fine. I've never written anything counter to that. In fact I've specifically framed this debate around the phrases "most tolerant" and "more tolerant."

If you want to debate that the optimists on this board are more tolerant, I'm fine with debating that proposition.

Second: The specifics of your response to TB deal with being "talked down to" and confronting posters who "feel their opinion is somewhat superior to others." But these things aren't comments on intolerance. They're comments on condescension and therefore may reflect in no way on questions of tolerance. One can be condescending while still tolerating the view of another. I can demean someone's opinion while acknowledging he has the right to hold it, but that is not what is happening with the opening post of this thread, and it is far too often not what is happening in the numerous other threads that take on this subject.

I can deal with someone saying, "I think you're a simpleton, but speak your piece." I'll simply show I'm not a simpleton. What's bothersome is when someone says, "Don't speak. Shut up or find another team." That is intolerance.

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Old
03-15-2006, 11:15 PM
  #32
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dgrohl,

very, very sorry to learn about your sister.

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Old
03-15-2006, 11:43 PM
  #33
McRanger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus
Two things:
First: If you want to say that the critics of this team can be very intolerant at times, fine. I've never written anything counter to that. In fact I've specifically framed this debate around the phrases "most tolerant" and "more tolerant."

If you want to debate that the optimists on this board are more tolerant, I'm fine with debating that proposition.

Not sure why you would ask, since I specifically mentioned that I agreed with you in my last post. My original reply was simply to

Second: The specifics of your response to TB deal with being "talked down to" and confronting posters who "feel their opinion is somewhat superior to others." But these things aren't comments on intolerance. They're comments on condescension and therefore may reflect in no way on questions of tolerance. One can be condescending while still tolerating the view of another. I can demean someone's opinion while acknowledging he has the right to hold it, but that is not what is happening with the opening post of this thread, and it is far too often not what is happening in the numerous other threads that take on this subject.

I can deal with someone saying, "I think you're a simpleton, but speak your piece." I'll simply show I'm not a simpleton. What's bothersome is when someone says, "Don't speak. Shut up or find another team." That is intolerance.
Between the belittling or dismissing of peoples opinions on the side of the "sunshine brigade", I never really looked to see if there was a "but hey, thats your opinion and I respect it" at the end of the post. Apologies, intolerance is the incorrect word. Damn you and your semantics Dedalus!

My point was really just a reminder that both sides are (as far as I know) made up of humans and therefore neither one is perfect. Both sides can be petty and irrational, and intolerant (sorry I couldnt resist) and thats the just way it is. The optimists are much moreso, but in the end I would chalk it up more to being "immature" than anything else.

I'm sorry but I just have to know, you ultra-cynics ARE human right? You better not be a robot Dedalus, that would make having discussions/arguments with you very unfair for me. At least I know TBs human, hes way too high strung.

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Old
03-16-2006, 12:34 AM
  #34
dedalus
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Originally Posted by McRanger
Damn you and your semantics Dedalus!
But I don't think it's semantics, MR. I think we're talking about something far more important than wordplay.

I freely admit to being condescending toward some posters on this board. That's mostly a product of exchanges I've had with them in the past, but the reason is a side issue. The real point is that, while I may sneer at them, I don't tell them to take their optimism elsewhere, that is has no place here, and/or that I've "had enough of it."

I may question it; I may question the thinking that produces it. At the end of the day I may even look down at the poster who is expressing it, but I've never claimed in seriousness that one of these posters is not a "true fan" or that he should go elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McRanger
You better not be a robot Dedalus, that would make having discussions/arguments with you very unfair for me. At least I know TBs human, hes way too high strung.
Me? Not human? Let me reassure you, Dave. You don't need to worry about that.

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Old
03-16-2006, 12:51 AM
  #35
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dgrohl8, I am so very sorry to read about your sister. I'm very close to my own sister and I can't imagine what you and your family must have been through.

Welcome back to the boards, I haven't seen you post in a long time, but I do remember that you are a good fan and a good poster.

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Old
03-16-2006, 08:45 AM
  #36
True Blue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McRanger
At least I know TBs human, hes way too high strung.
High-strung? Moi? Must you use the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.....Whoops, I digress.
I'm actually fairly relaxed once I have a few beers in me.

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Old
03-16-2006, 12:22 PM
  #37
Shadowtron
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Originally Posted by DarthSather99
I don't agree that being positive is "blind worship". It's knowing that there is alot that has gone right and even in this losing streak the overall positives outweight the negatives. It's known that there are problems and they are not being ignoring. The problems will be worked on and that's all you can ask. Most of what we say in here has no effect on the Rangers. Listening to people in here complain, badger, whine constantly gets annoying. It always seems to be the same things. It's not like we are being enlightened with some new perspective.

Isolate anyone in a room and tell them all that is wrong with them and you will eventually be met with contempt and hostility. No situation is ever perfect but why always look at the negative.

I don't have a problem with people being critical. It's just that some people here only have negative things to say. Heck, when the Rangers were flying high beating top teams there were still grumblings.

"I don't agree that being positive is "blind worship".


Nor do I.

"It's knowing that there is alot that has gone right and even in this losing streak the overall positives outweight the negatives. It's known that there are problems and they are not being ignoring. The problems will be worked on and that's all you can ask."

You don't have to explain this to me. I always assumed this rational train of thought was a given. Win some, lose some. It's when this philosophy is abandoned and I'm told to either fall back in line or find a new team that I tend to have a problem.

"Most of what we say in here has no effect on the Rangers."

How could it? I don't think the day will ever come when Sam & JD critique the members over at HFBoards because the "whining, complaining, and badgering" is clearly effecting the Rangers play on the ice, or that due to the collective sincere well-wishes of all the members over at HFBoards, the Rangers managed to finish first in the Atlantic. I just can't see that day coming. I think we're safe say what we want, because I'm willing to bet only the fans are having the problems.

"Listening to people in here complain, badger, whine constantly gets annoying."

I understand and fully respect this opinion. What I don't respect is the drawn line in the sand, or the demanding that everyone change. It's a public forum and probably far easier to simply ignore the elements you disagree with rather than meet them head on and compromise the board's integrity with all this petty bickering.

"Isolate anyone in a room and tell them all that is wrong with them and you will eventually be met with contempt and hostility."

Okay, but now imagine you're in a bar, talking to someone. And every time you say something that is a little off, not so positive, or just down right negative, a stranger interjects with ridicule or some sarcastic little barb demanding that you change your view or accusing you of being less than what you are. Would get a little frustrating, right?

"No situation is ever perfect but why always look at the negative."

Why always look at the positives? Why demand everyone change to suit your needs, as opposed to you changing to suit the boards needs?

"I don't have a problem with people being critical."

Sure you do. That's why we're here, right? In this thread.

"It's just that some people here only have negative things to say."

And some people are just downright too sensitive about this team.

"Heck, when the Rangers were flying high beating top teams there were still grumblings."

Who cares? They were still winning, right?


Last edited by Shadowtron: 03-16-2006 at 01:14 PM.
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Old
03-16-2006, 01:10 PM
  #38
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McRanger, I have been relegated to "Sunshine Brigade" status as well. For the record, and I'll try to make it relevant to the topic, I am not blindly optomistic or this fierce bulldog protector of the Ranger Brass. My attitude this whole season was that it is a rebuilding year. Making the playoffs is the goal. I haven't gotten overly upset about scratches, losses or anything negative. Sure I would love to win it all, but I don't expect it. For a long time there was a lot of bashing despite a great record. I took the time to try and temper such resentments or feelings or whatever you want to call it. Look, its all perspective. I had to sit through 7 terrible seasons. I had to see Ulanov play over Kloucek. I had to see a parade of veterans cash in and disgrace the sweater. In a year of learning, whether it is the players, the coach or the brass with the new NHL, it is premature to constantly bash decisions made. There was definitely some lively debates that I felt held some level of intelligence, but I take offense to being called names and lumped into groups for having a different opinion. That goes for both sides. I just don't understand how we can all suffer through the last 8 years and turn cannibalistic during this great year. The mission is to get into the playoffs, develop the team, gain experience and build to the ultimate goal... which is seasons away. One extreme is fire Sather because he isn't trying to win the cup this year and the other is bash the coach for not doing an extreme rebuild. Moderation.

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Old
03-16-2006, 06:29 PM
  #39
McRanger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus
But I don't think it's semantics, MR. I think we're talking about something far more important than wordplay.

I freely admit to being condescending toward some posters on this board. That's mostly a product of exchanges I've had with them in the past, but the reason is a side issue. The real point is that, while I may sneer at them, I don't tell them to take their optimism elsewhere, that is has no place here, and/or that I've "had enough of it."

I may question it; I may question the thinking that produces it. At the end of the day I may even look down at the poster who is expressing it, but I've never claimed in seriousness that one of these posters is not a "true fan" or that he should go elsewhere.
Let me just leave you with one point. I'm not sure how much of what you see is actually intolerance, and how much is really immaturity, stupidity, frustration etc., seeming like intolerance. I, at least hope, its more the "oh shut up" in the middle of a heated argument than a genuine disregard for anothers opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalus
Me? Not human? Let me reassure you, Dave. You don't need to worry about that.
Uh, I think its time to change your oil.

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