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Luc Robitaille 700 goals in 1400 games

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Old
03-17-2006, 11:52 PM
  #26
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1420 games 668 goals

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Old
03-18-2006, 08:49 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #66
Just to get back on topic, does Robitaille even crack the top 10 LW's ever? He's scored a ton of goals but I think some others have had more value over the entire ice. Maybe he would get grouped in with Goulet and Propp but I think that people forget just how good those players were away from the puck. Goulet had a role players work ethic and was great along the boards. Propp IMO is one of the most underrated players I've ever seen and had a great two way game.
You could make the same complaints about another player who has his 62nd record for most career evenstrength goals against.

Anyway we're talking goal scoring, not "away from the puck" - I mean Gainey was a "great along the boards" left wing too.

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Old
03-18-2006, 10:47 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Obviously only a great player could score that many goals but what I'm getting at is without Orr he couldn't have done it. Maybe he could've cracked 50 a couple times in his prime. Orr's passes were a thing of beauty. Just look at Cheechoo and Gagne this year playing with Thornton and Forsberg. They've turned into 50 goal scorers when they're really no matter then 35 goal scorers. This is just Thonrton and Forsberg. Imagine playing with 99 or Orr. Lafleur didn't need any help from a pheonomal playmaker playing at his side or standing in front of the net just to deflect shots or put in rebounds, Guy would go end to end and score himself. Same with Mario.
What about Teemu Selanne, he have never played guys like Forsberg or Thornton. He is incredible, what it comes scoring goals.

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Old
03-18-2006, 10:59 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Lafluer didn't need any help from a pheonomal playmaker playing at his side or standing in front of the net just to deflect shots or put in rebounds, Guy would go end to end and score himself. Same with Mario.
Guy probably could have won those 4 Cups by himself ....well he may have needed Dryden in the playoffs.

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Old
03-18-2006, 11:04 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Guy probably could have won those 4 Cups by himself ....well he may have needed Dryden in the playoffs.
Dryden wasn't exceptional during that dinasty. The key players were the big 3 and Lafleur. Take those 4 out and I doubt the habs would win those cups.

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Old
03-18-2006, 11:23 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Dryden wasn't exceptional during that dinasty. The key players were the big 3 and Lafleur. Take those 4 out and I doubt the habs would win those cups.
There you have it folks. Remove the leading scorer and top 3 defencemen from a team, and they will not win the Stanley Cup

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Old
03-18-2006, 11:55 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by arrbez
There you have it folks. Remove the leading scorer and top 3 defencemen from a team, and they will not win the Stanley Cup
What are you getting at with that?

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Old
03-18-2006, 12:14 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #66
Just to get back on topic, does Robitaille even crack the top 10 LW's ever? He's scored a ton of goals but I think some others have had more value over the entire ice. Maybe he would get grouped in with Goulet and Propp but I think that people forget just how good those players were away from the puck. Goulet had a role players work ethic and was great along the boards. Propp IMO is one of the most underrated players I've ever seen and had a great two way game.
Hull
Mahovlich
Lindsay
Shanahan
Bucyk
Moore
Goulet
Propp
Blake
Jackson
Good list. All the players you listed (except Goulet and Propp) are unquestionably better than Robitaille (and Goulet and Propp are about even). Other left-wingers who are definitely better than Robitaille are Cy Denneny (power forward who won 1 Art Ross and was runner-up 5 times) and Aurel Joliat (the Bryan Trottier of the 20's and 30's).

Also, according to this thread (http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=145895), Robitaille never got ONE vote for Hart Trophy! That further goes to show how he was never a truly dominant player.


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 03-18-2006 at 12:21 PM.
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Old
03-18-2006, 12:37 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Good list. All the players you listed (except Goulet and Propp) are unquestionably better than Robitaille (and Goulet and Propp are about even). Other left-wingers who are definitely better than Robitaille are Cy Denneny (power forward who won 1 Art Ross and was runner-up 5 times) and Aurel Joliat (the Bryan Trottier of the 20's and 30's).

Also, according to this thread (http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=145895), Robitaille never got ONE vote for Hart Trophy! That further goes to show how he was never a truly dominant player.
It might be a flawed way to look at history but I tend to leave out players from that long ago becasue of the way the game was played back then. They are two Legends though. Is there any chance that you can do your "stats evener" on some of the all time LW's?

I might also put another two way player like Mats Naslund on an even playing feild with Goulet, Robitaille and Propp.

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Old
03-18-2006, 12:59 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
What are you getting at with that?
I think he's getting at that if you did that to ANY Cup winning team, it would win the Cup anymore.

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Old
03-18-2006, 01:01 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #66
It might be a flawed way to look at history but I tend to leave out players from that long ago becasue of the way the game was played back then. They are two Legends though. Is there any chance that you can do your "stats evener" on some of the all time LW's?

I might also put another two way player like Mats Naslund on an even playing feild with Goulet, Robitaille and Propp.
Sure, here are the top left-wings ranked according to Peak Offensive Value:

Denneny: 912 games, 377 goals, 857 pts. Best seasons: 179, 136, 90 pts.
Joliat: 1,277 games, 481 goals, 1,172 pts. Best seasons: 144, 112, 98 pts.
* Markus Naslund: 798 games, 345 goals, 714 pts. Best seasons: 120, 106, 100 pts.
Hull: 1,203 games, 669 goals, 1,246 points. Best seasons: 105, 104, 102 pts
Lindsay: 1,327 games, 468 goals, 1,071 points. Best seasons: 102, 101, 96 pts
*Robitaille: 1,406 games, 678 goals, 1,368 pts. Best seasons: 104, 97, 97 pts.
Bucyk: 1,709 games, 579 goals, 1,386 pts. Best seasons: 114, 84, 82 pts
Moore: 811 games, 300 goals, 690 pts. Best seasons: 109, 95, 76 pts
*Shanahan: 1,305 games, 608 goals, 1,204 points. Best seasons: 95, 94, 88 pts
Goulet: 1,110 games, 472 goals, 964 pts. Best seasons: 98, 91, 87 pts
Jackson: 1,091 games, 387 goals, 840 pts. Best seasons: 106, 88, 81 pts.
Mahovlich: 1,328 games, 572 goals, 1,146 points. Best seasons: 95, 93, 84 pts
Blake: 943 games, 309 goals, 729 pts. Best seasons: 83, 81, 71 pts
Propp: 1,037 games, 365 goals, 835 pts. Best seasons: 78, 78, 74 pts
Mats Naslund: 691 games, 223 goals, 547 pts. Best seasons: 88, 71, 70 pts.

* Not counting this season

Of course, this looks only at offense. So even though players like Bucyk, Moore, Shanahan, etc. are ranked slightly below Robitaille, they would rank higher than Robitaille once other factors (ie defense, playoff performance, awards, etc) are taken into account.

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Old
03-18-2006, 03:00 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Sure, here are the top left-wings ranked according to Peak Offensive Value:

Denneny: 912 games, 377 goals, 857 pts. Best seasons: 179, 136, 90 pts.
Joliat: 1,277 games, 481 goals, 1,172 pts. Best seasons: 144, 112, 98 pts.
* Markus Naslund: 798 games, 345 goals, 714 pts. Best seasons: 120, 106, 100 pts.
Hull: 1,203 games, 669 goals, 1,246 points. Best seasons: 105, 104, 102 pts
Lindsay: 1,327 games, 468 goals, 1,071 points. Best seasons: 102, 101, 96 pts
*Robitaille: 1,406 games, 678 goals, 1,368 pts. Best seasons: 104, 97, 97 pts.
Bucyk: 1,709 games, 579 goals, 1,386 pts. Best seasons: 114, 84, 82 pts
Moore: 811 games, 300 goals, 690 pts. Best seasons: 109, 95, 76 pts
*Shanahan: 1,305 games, 608 goals, 1,204 points. Best seasons: 95, 94, 88 pts
Goulet: 1,110 games, 472 goals, 964 pts. Best seasons: 98, 91, 87 pts
Jackson: 1,091 games, 387 goals, 840 pts. Best seasons: 106, 88, 81 pts.
Mahovlich: 1,328 games, 572 goals, 1,146 points. Best seasons: 95, 93, 84 pts
Blake: 943 games, 309 goals, 729 pts. Best seasons: 83, 81, 71 pts
Propp: 1,037 games, 365 goals, 835 pts. Best seasons: 78, 78, 74 pts
Mats Naslund: 691 games, 223 goals, 547 pts. Best seasons: 88, 71, 70 pts.

* Not counting this season

Of course, this looks only at offense. So even though players like Bucyk, Moore, Shanahan, etc. are ranked slightly below Robitaille, they would rank higher than Robitaille once other factors (ie defense, playoff performance, awards, etc) are taken into account.
Thanks HO. I've always enjoyed these lists.

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Old
03-18-2006, 03:42 PM
  #38
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Even Patrick Elias, over each of the last five full seasons, has been a better value to a team than Luc.

Luc is good. He's just not the Top-100 of all time.

(More great players at every other position than the notoriously weak top-enders at left wing - called such perhaps because the best left wingers spend a lot of their time checking the opposition's right winger.)

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Old
03-18-2006, 05:46 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
Even Patrick Elias, over each of the last five full seasons, has been a better value to a team than Luc.

Luc is good. He's just not the Top-100 of all time.

(More great players at every other position than the notoriously weak top-enders at left wing - called such perhaps because the best left wingers spend a lot of their time checking the opposition's right winger.)
The point is that purely on the basis of stats Luc was just as good a goal scorer as anyone generally considered in the top 10. Of course, because many dont like Luc other reasons come out, but they can come out for other players as well.
Like, he played in a weak run and gun division. Had he been an Oiler - 893 goals seem likely instead of 700.

Why the double standard as compared to a Kurri or 99?


(btw Mickey Redmond was dynamite in the early 70's until his knee injury)

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Old
03-18-2006, 10:47 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
The point is that purely on the basis of stats Luc was just as good a goal scorer as anyone generally considered in the top 10.
So?

Stats without analysis are useless. Case in point: this thread

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Old
03-19-2006, 10:29 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by arrbez
So?

Stats without analysis are useless. Case in point: this thread
1967 - what analysis do you want?

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Old
03-19-2006, 10:54 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
1967 - what analysis do you want?
lol, go for it. If it makes you feel like less of a ******, any analysis you want.

You've clearly realized that your argument has more holes than paris hilton and you're essentially throwing in the towel on civil discourse.

But please, don't leave just yet. Tell us more stories about whooping it up, and english conspiracies, and how Guy Lafleur was the heavyweight champion of the world...

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Old
03-19-2006, 11:02 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by arrbez
lol, go for it. If it makes you feel like less of a ******, any analysis you want.

You've clearly realized that your argument has more holes than paris hilton and you're essentially throwing in the towel on civil discourse.

But please, don't leave just yet. Tell us more stories about whooping it up, and english conspiracies, and how Guy Lafleur was the heavyweight champion of the world...
You think assigning 7 points for a trophy is analysis?

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Old
03-19-2006, 11:16 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
You think assigning 7 points for a trophy is analysis?
Oh, we're back on topic are we?

I never said I agree with Ogopogo's lists, but I agree that he's moving in the proper direction.

If Luc Robitaille NEVER lead the league in goals, and only came within the top 3 once, what good reason do you have for putting him up against Gretzky, who lead the league in goals 5 times? Even you've admitted that Gretzky was "one of the best offensive players of his era". But was Robitaille?

Looking strictly at numbers, a guy like Pat Lafontaine should be significantly better than Rocket Richard (more points, less games). Would you agree that he was? Surely you would not, nor would anyone else. But as soon as you start a rational argument as to WHY he wasn't as good, you're doing analysis.

Comprendé?


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Old
03-19-2006, 12:37 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
Oh, we're back on topic are we?

I never said I agree with Ogopogo's lists, but I agree that he's moving in the proper direction.

If Luc Robitaille NEVER lead the league in goals, and only came within the top 3 once, what good reason do you have for putting him up against Gretzky, who lead the league in goals 5 times? Even you've admitted that Gretzky was "one of the best offensive players of his era". But was Robitaille?

Looking strictly at numbers, a guy like Pat Lafontaine should be significantly better than Rocket Richard (more points, less games). Would you agree that he was? Surely you would not, nor would anyone else. But as soon as you start a rational argument as to WHY he wasn't as good, you're doing analysis.

Comprendé?

You're too good a poster to get drawn into that, arrbez. You're here because you love hockey. Don't even bother giving the satisfaction.

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Old
03-19-2006, 02:45 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
Oh, we're back on topic are we?

I never said I agree with Ogopogo's lists, but I agree that he's moving in the proper direction.

If Luc Robitaille NEVER lead the league in goals, and only came within the top 3 once, what good reason do you have for putting him up against Gretzky, who lead the league in goals 5 times? Even you've admitted that Gretzky was "one of the best offensive players of his era". But was Robitaille?

Looking strictly at numbers, a guy like Pat Lafontaine should be significantly better than Rocket Richard (more points, less games). Would you agree that he was? Surely you would not, nor would anyone else. But as soon as you start a rational argument as to WHY he wasn't as good, you're doing analysis.

Comprendé?
What about being a first team NHL all star 5 times and second teams a few times? The guy was a great West division Offensive Left Wing for 10-12 years just like 99 was a great West Division Offensive centre for 10-12 years.

One has 900 goals playing with 5 HoF in an easier era and the other has 700 in a tougher era. Meaningless to you?

"Leading the league" in goals is another meaningless stat on its own, too.

If youre gonna call one guy Great do it for the other too.

If the THN Top 100 list was compiled by 95% soviet hockey guys or 95% francophones or 95% Czechs rather than 95% english guys from Ontario what results ya think we'd have?

The lists have bias, comprends?
Just my 2 cents - shoot me; call me a ******.

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Old
03-19-2006, 03:15 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
What about being a first team NHL all star 5 times and second teams a few times? The guy was a great West division Offensive Left Wing for 10-12 years just like 99 was a great West Division Offensive centre for 10-12 years.

One has 900 goals playing with 5 HoF in an easier era and the other has 700 in a tougher era. Meaningless to you?

"Leading the league" in goals is another meaningless stat on its own, too.

If youre gonna call one guy Great do it for the other too.

If the THN Top 100 list was compiled by 95% soviet hockey guys or 95% francophones or 95% Czechs rather than 95% english guys from Ontario what results ya think we'd have?

The lists have bias, comprends?
Just my 2 cents - shoot me; call me a ******.
Chooch, you continue to throw very thinly veiled barbs of racial bias in the hockey media. That's a pretty serious accusation; I'd suggest you back them up with something other than a sirhan sirhan diatribe or retract them. This
is a hockey board, not a political forum.

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Old
03-26-2006, 01:13 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murray
I can hardly wait. There is no univrsal way to rate players from different eras. Your one to seven method with weightings for dominant seasons does not have any good reasoning behind it. There is a hindred different ways it could be done. You could go withh only the top five with no domoinance rating for example. In other words, youur system is absolutely meaningless. A great effort but meamingless.
Sorry old-timer we are going to have to disagree. You don't understand my system - largely because I have never fully explained it on these boards. But, that does not make it 'meaningless'. I would think there are more holes in your memory than my research.

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Old
03-26-2006, 08:54 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Ogopogo's Greatest Goal Scorers

1 Gordie Howe
2 Bobby Hull
3 Maurice Richard
4 Phil Esposito
5 Wayne Gretzky
6 Mike Bossy
7 Cy Denneny
8 Cecil Dye
9 Nels Stewart
10 Mario Lemieux
11 Howie Morenz
12 Jean Beliveau
13 Charlie Conacher
14 Brett Hull
15 Roy Conacher
16 Bill Cook
Frank Mahovlich
18 Ted Lindsay
19 Pavel Bure
Stan Mikita
21 Guy Lafleur
22 Bernie Geoffrion
23 Marcel Dionne
Jaromir Jagr
25 Teemu Selanne
26 Bryan Hextall
27 Peter Bondra
28 Gordie Drillon
Joe Malone
30 Newsy Lalonde
31 Steve Yzerman
32 Jari Kurri
33 Harvey Jackson
34 Aurel Joliat
35 Dickie Moore
36 Camille Henry
Michel Goulet
38 Norm Ullman
Tim Kerr
40 Cecil Dillon
41 Marty Barry
Doug Bentley
43 David Schriner
44 Andy Bathgate
John LeClair
46 Jarome Iginla
Hector Blake
48 Herb Cain
Lanny McDonald
50 Rick Martin
51 Alexander Mogilny
52 Odie Cleghorn
53 Joe Sakic
Billy Burch
Max Bentley
Sid Abel
57 Steve Shutt
Reg Noble
Ken Hodge
Ed Litzenberger
61 Gaye Stewart
62 Sid Smith
Frank Nighbor
Carson Cooper
Mickey Redmond
Charlie Simmer
Lynn Patrick
68 Luc Robitaille
This list is totally flawed, like it was put together by a pack of spider monkeys. There's no way I'd have Ed Litzenberger higher than Carson Cooper.....

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Old
03-26-2006, 12:34 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Genius
This list is totally flawed, like it was put together by a pack of spider monkeys. There's no way I'd have Ed Litzenberger higher than Carson Cooper.....
ogopogo puts a lot of effort putting together these lists The methodology may not be perfect (and what method is) but at least it is objective and without bias. I was critical at the start also but am starting to respect his rating systems more as I get a better understanding.

By the way you zeroed in on Carson Cooper being a better goal scorer than Ed Litzenberger and I am curious as to your logic as you likely never saw either of them play. I did see Litz in his prime and for a 5 year period (54-59)in the 50's, he was one of the top scorers in the league. Finished 9th, 23rd, 4th, 3rd, and 4th in goals during that period.

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