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Gaborik leaves Minnesota

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Old
10-27-2003, 11:54 AM
  #26
Blackjack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
Oh, and to the people who said that it is unfair to compare Holik etc with this situation you are kidding, right? I mean, you understand that they are saying that the days of the stupidly over paid NHL player are long gone and not that the actual players should be compared, right?
Why dont' you say who's contract we should compare? Like Marion Hossa, Martin Havlat, or Simon Gagne?

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10-27-2003, 12:04 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
Oh, and to the people who said that it is unfair to compare Holik etc with this situation you are kidding, right? I mean, you understand that they are saying that the days of the stupidly over paid NHL player are long gone and not that the actual players should be compared, right?
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Holik was an UNRESTRICTED free agent (UFA). That means that ANY team could make him an offer, and not have to give up ANY assets if he signed the contract.

Gaborik is a RESTRICTED free agent (RFA). IF any team except MINN offered him what he was asking for, the team would owe MINN 4 or 5 1st round draft picks if they didn't match the contract.

You literally CANNOT compare RFAs to UFAs. Who would you rather have - Bill Guerin and 5 1st round draft picks or Keith Tkachuk? Dallas was able to add Bill Guerin for $'s, while STL had to move a slew of assets to PHO for the rights to Keith Tkachuk.

If you want to compare Gaborik to someone - tell me why Marian Hossa's or Simon Gagne's last contract are not appropriate? Hell, tell me why Brad Richard's contract that everyone is pissed about shouldn't be the baseline?

And I don't think the days of stupidly overpaid hockey players are long gone. The Rangers paid Devries $3.5M per year 4 months ago. The Ducks gave Federov $8MM per and Prospal $4M per year.

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10-27-2003, 12:41 PM
  #28
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Gaborik

Gaborik is worth slightly more than Richards, and the Wild have already offered more. Sure, if Gabby did not demand any bonus clauses, $4.5 mil per year would be reasonable, but chances are pretty high that this was posturing on Gabby's part, and the bonus demands are still there.

If I were the Wild, I would up the offer slightly because Gaborik is a special player, he had a great playoffs, and they need him...I'd make him a 3 year, $11 million offer and say, take it or leave it (the current offer is $9.5 million for 3 years). That also allows Gabby to save face.

But any more than that and they would be saying that Gaborik is WAY better than Havlat, Richards, Hossa, and Gagne at similar points in their careers, and that is simply not the case.

It hurts to say that because I'm a big Wild fan and I'd like to see him in uniform more than anyone (plus I have him in both my hockey sim leagues!!), but I simply don't think he is at a completely higher plane than those other guys I mentioned.

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10-27-2003, 12:47 PM
  #29
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It really isn't that hard of a concept to understand, is it? I mean, we are talking about what any player with any name recognition was payed in relation to that particular statement. Which was making the point that the days of the grossly over paid popular players are over. Is it that hard to understand?

Maybe its just a case of Mat Johnsonitus.

You

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10-27-2003, 12:56 PM
  #30
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Is it really that hard to understand? I mean, all that I was saying (and correctly so) was that you could take ANY "popular" player that has recieved a ridiculously overvalued contract and use them as the example that the days of paying stupid amounts of money just because the fans recognize his name or over.

Maybe it is just a case of Matt Johnsonitus.

My point (which is painfully obvious) has NOTHING to do with A PLAYERS STATUS and only has to do with the fact that we will no longer see guys LIKE Holik or Cujo or ANY OTHER POPULAR player recieve these giant $10 mill range contracts anymore. That was what was said. NOT look at these UFA's and their contracts or look at these RFA's and thier contracts or look at these NBA's and their contracts. Just the simple statement that teams are no longer going to over pay players these ridiculous contracts. In fact, after the new CBA I would bet that the league high average will be close to $5 mill per (total) and the ultra talented super star "Franchise Player" contracts will M A Y B E be in the neighborhood of $8 per. NOT $9+.

That was what I said and ALL THAT I WAS SAYING. Sorry for any confusion, I thought it was very simple to understand, I see I was wrong now and will remember to write accordingly in the future.

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10-27-2003, 12:57 PM
  #31
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All Bruins fans feel your pain Wild fans. We are oh so used to this. Hopefully the talks have not gotten so ugly as to say that Gaborik will never wear a Minny jersey ever again. He is Way too good of a player.

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10-27-2003, 12:57 PM
  #32
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While I'm going to miss Marian Gaborik a lot and it pains me to sit out for the entire year if that, his contract that the Wild offered is pretty good. The incentives need to be worked on but the contract the Wild offered a couple weeks back isn't as bad as people think.

Gaborik is a very special player but the Wild I believe are telling him that he needs to add one more thing to his game and that's consistancy. He was having a tough time finding the net the last half of the season but the Wild slugged it out and grabbed the 6th spot in the playoffs.

 
Old
10-27-2003, 12:58 PM
  #33
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Question. What in draft picks would a team have to give up if they did sign him?

And what kind of offer do they have to make?

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10-27-2003, 12:58 PM
  #34
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Sorry for the double post, edit doesn't load for me.

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10-27-2003, 01:47 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldTimeHockey
Question. What in draft picks would a team have to give up if they did sign him?

And what kind of offer do they have to make?
I'm sure that Buffaloed could quote you line and verse from the CBA.

It's likely that any offer acceptable to Gaborik (>$4.5M per year) would be at least 4 1st rounders, and probably be 5 1st rounders. I believe the salary levels set initially varied as player salaries increased, and since it's been so long since another team made an offer to a RFA, I'm not exactly certain.

I think the big thing is that no matter how good Gaborik is, the odds of him getting an offer from another team are remote. I don't think an RFA has gotten an offer-sheet since Federov, and that was 5 years ago.

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10-27-2003, 01:53 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
Is it really that hard to understand? I mean, all that I was saying (and correctly so) was that you could take ANY "popular" player that has recieved a ridiculously overvalued contract and use them as the example that the days of paying stupid amounts of money just because the fans recognize his name or over.

Maybe it is just a case of Matt Johnsonitus.

My point (which is painfully obvious) has NOTHING to do with A PLAYERS STATUS and only has to do with the fact that we will no longer see guys LIKE Holik or Cujo or ANY OTHER POPULAR player recieve these giant $10 mill range contracts anymore. That was what was said. NOT look at these UFA's and their contracts or look at these RFA's and thier contracts or look at these NBA's and their contracts. Just the simple statement that teams are no longer going to over pay players these ridiculous contracts. In fact, after the new CBA I would bet that the league high average will be close to $5 mill per (total) and the ultra talented super star "Franchise Player" contracts will M A Y B E be in the neighborhood of $8 per. NOT $9+.

That was what I said and ALL THAT I WAS SAYING. Sorry for any confusion, I thought it was very simple to understand, I see I was wrong now and will remember to write accordingly in the future.
Can you tell me what Lotto # is going to come in this weekend, because I could sure use the cash!

All I know is that I don't know what's going to happen with the CBA. To arbitrarily throw out some numbers ($5M or $9M) the star players will make is just crazy. The owners have been able to pay star players $10M for 4-5 years now, and I don't think that the NHLPA is going to allow that to change without a HUGE fight. And the players usually win those fights.

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10-27-2003, 04:37 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
Show me where he has said that HE wants bonuses included and why. There is just no way that he is asking for his gross base AND bonuses. The Wild have already said they won't pay him $6 mill per and if he said he wanted last years gross AND bonuses that would put him over $7 mill per season and he, his agent and god himself already know that the Wild won't pay that. He also has said that he "came down significantly" on what he wanted only to have the Wild say no.

I just don't buy it that he wanted his $4.4 AND bonuses when he said he would take that just to get a deal done. He wasn't asking for $6+ AND bonuses in the contract that the Wild turned down so why is he now.

Of course in MOST NHL contracts there are performance clauses, there just doesn't make any sense for him to have asked for them this time AND there is no evidence besides public opinion that he has.
I don't think you understand. The reason Gaborik made $4.4M last season was because of performance incentives and playoff bonus. Now he wants that $4.4M as his base salary. That is the figure that will be on his contract. If he makes closer to $7M because of bonus money, then so be it...but I guarantee you that Gaborik, or any other NHL player for that matter, would never sign to a contract with no performance incentives.

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Old
10-28-2003, 05:13 AM
  #38
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Who is going to forgoe that many first round picks for Gaborik? Detroit could afford it for a year or two, but not in the long-term. They're way too old a club:

Chelios: going on 42
Hull: going on 40
Yzerman: going on 39
Hasek: going on 39 (Cujo will be gone by March)
Shannahan: going on 35
Lidstrom: going on 34
Schneider: going on 34
Draper: going on 33
McCarty: going on 32
Whitney: going on 32
Legace: going on 31
Holmstrom: going on 31


Colorado has about half as many "older" players, but they have also traded away many of their best young talents / role players in recent years: Drury, Reinprecht, Vrbata, DeVries, Ville N., Nederost. Something tells me as dumb as some of the LaCroix moves have been, he's not going to give up his drafting power for the next several seasons to get Marian Gaborik. Not to mention it's a pretty good bet this will be Foresberg's last season.


The Rangers... also way too old to consider doing this... though historically speaking, they might be stupid enough to do it.


Dallas... not strong enough with their existing roster / system to try it.


St. Louis... they've already got some very good young people in their system... and they have the money. Possibility.

Ottawa... have the depth and youth to be able to manage it, and with a new owner may be able to financially afford it. Probably the best bet IMO. Not that it's a good bet by any stretch of the imagination.

Sleeper could be... Pittsburgh. They would have to lose Straka in the process for sure, but they certainly are young enough and certainly have a very deep pool of talent in their system. If they could pool the money for say a two year deal, I could see it.

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10-28-2003, 05:51 AM
  #39
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Buke. Put down the crack pipe and back away from the table. This is a site where we are enouraged to give (here is the tricky part for you) OUR OPINIONS. I wrote it in caps so you can read it. There has to be some reason that you are having trouble with comprehending my point. So, if you want to go by the simple truth that is the fact that I was giving my opinion on what might happen with the comming CBA (of course based on two years of reading everything I can on the subject. That isn't to say that what I have read is perfectly correct and that my opinions that are based on this information are going to be right. I am though, simply basing my opinions (there is that word again) on them and am open to other posters understanding of what they mean as well) then yes, I can give you the lotto numbers for any time you like. Of course, they will just be my opinion of what the numbers will be and if you want to pay me for my time I will take the time to do a little research for you (that would probably consist of checking to see if there are any repeating patterns for the numbers, if certain counties or cities have higher rates of paying off on quick picks etc.) and try to give you the best informed opinion that I can.
Just let me know if you want me to and I will help you out, OR you could just take the time to do it for yourself, either way, I will support your decision.

Van, I "get it". I am just asking you to produce ONE article that says that he is looking for his gross base of last year "plus performance bonuses". I have read now 7 different articles on this topic AND sent a few emails off to as many people (reporters, the team, even the agency) on the subject and the one response that I have had said "I have not heard that he (MG) was asking for any bonuses on top of his gross salary from last year". That wasn't from MG or his agent but it was from a hockey reporter and that is a much better source than either you or I are.

So I will say the same to you. I don't think you "get it" when it comes to what he was doing. Gaborik came to Min recently in order to do what it takes to get a deal done so that he could play for this season. He came in and tried to get the team to renegotiate his deal and dropped his asking price down from the reported $6 +(approx) per year and that he was using that number as the absolute celing (meaning the amount of money the contract would be worth WITH performance bonuses). The two sides were unable to come to an agreement as the Wild were "unwilling to negotiate" from their position.

So I went to an agent (he doesn't rep hockey players but his firm does) and simply asked him for his take on the subject. (whether or not this deal included performance bonuses or not and if as you say ALL deals have a bonus structure)

I was told that his understanding was that this was a deal that was based on what his gross total for last year was and that one of the problems was that the Wild are arguing the total gross that he (MG) actually earned and are claiming it is less than MG is. You would think it would be an easy thing to find out but there is a difference between the two sides of a couple of hundred thousand dollars and that was the sticking point. He also said that "it doesn't make any sense that the total price would be released to the public without the number already reflecting any bonuses that are built in to the deal unless it was said up front". So, what he is saying is what most of us know as the truth. When a players contract terms are leaked to the public it is ALWAYS reported like "The terms of the deal has him being able to earn $X per year WITH BONUSES". You always here what the total amount is with bonuses or you here the amount of the players base and what the bonuses could bring the deal to.

So, this is what I have based my opinion on. I found it fun to go out and find out as much as I could before I came back and posted what I had learned. I believe that I am right but am open to the concept that I could be wrong.

I just want to ask you, what are you basing your opinion on? Show me one article supporting your belief that ALL contracts have bonuses structured into them. (which I know for a fact is wrong) Show me one article that backs up your claim that the money reflected in this current contract is what the player is asking for WITHOUT BONUSES. I know you won't be able to but I am open to debating the issue with you.

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10-28-2003, 08:56 AM
  #40
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[QUOTE=IGM]Buke. Put down the crack pipe and back away from the table. This is a site where we are enouraged to give (here is the tricky part for you) OUR OPINIONS. I wrote it in caps so you can read it. There has to be some reason that you are having trouble with comprehending my point. So, if you want to go by the simple truth that is the fact that I was giving my opinion on what might happen with the comming CBA (of course based on two years of reading everything I can on the subject. That isn't to say that what I have read is perfectly correct and that my opinions that are based on this information are going to be right. I am though, simply basing my opinions (there is that word again) on them and am open to other posters understanding of what they mean as well) then yes, I can give you the lotto numbers for any time you like. Of course, they will just be my opinion of what the numbers will be and if you want to pay me for my time I will take the time to do a little research for you (that would probably consist of checking to see if there are any repeating patterns for the numbers, if certain counties or cities have higher rates of paying off on quick picks etc.) and try to give you the best informed opinion that I can.
Just let me know if you want me to and I will help you out, OR you could just take the time to do it for yourself, either way, I will support your decision. [QUOTE]

Two quick points after I put down the crack pipe.

1) You make comments about the unknown like they were fact. FACT: No one knows what is going to happen between now and 9/15/04. FACT: Many hockey teams manage to pay star players MUCH more than you seem to think they will in the future. MY OPINION: To make statements about salary levels or (different example but same concept) the UFA age is simply ludicrous at this point. How many posts say that "Player A is worth crap because he's 28 and going to be a UFA under the new CBA". Some people are trying to make that point with Comrie, who is all of 23 YO. Sorry if you took my earlier post the wrong way.

From ESPN.com article:

Two days before training camp, Minnesota offered a three-year deal worth $9.5 million -- including an annual average of $3.15 million in base salary and a chance for Gaborik to earn an additional $1.75 million in performance bonuses.

That's $4.9M per year (including incentives) that MINN offered, which is $0.5M more than Gaborik made the last two years.

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Old
10-28-2003, 08:59 AM
  #41
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Gaborik

Here is an article which sheds a bit more light on the negotiations:

http://www.startribune.com/stories/506/4178802.html

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10-28-2003, 10:00 AM
  #42
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Thank you for making my point for me on the contracts Buke. TOTAL WITH BONUSES $4.9 or approx the $4.4 that was reported. NOT what was being said by others around here.

As for the other comment, I NEVER say anything that is my opinion as a fact. If you want to take it that way that is up to you. It isn't my intention. I also have no idea why you would draw that conclusion but hey, thats you. I mean, I said that it was my opinion several times but if opinion means fact to you I can't help it. I also should point out that I (as I have said so many times) is loosely based on some of the info that I have taken from what I have read and that I or anyone else is only guessing at will happen. Of course, that also applies to you. You either need some pro help here or are one funny dude. Example.

"FACT: Some teams manage to pay star players MUCH more than you think they will in the future". How can something be a fact when it is based on what my opinion of their salaries will be in the future. IT CAN'T. Sure they pay them more NOW because we are operating under the current CBA and we both know that we aren't talking about what they are being paid now but speculating on what they WILL be paid under the new agreement IN MY OPINION. So, as I said, you should either put down the pipe or get some help here. I mean, I am serious when I say that it worries me that you are actually trying to make the argument that because teams are paying their star players more money today under the current CBA that they will still be paying them as much under the new CBA and then you are daft enough to try and base that argument on what I have stated is my opinion. I mean, by opinion I am saying that I DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN BUT I THINK THIS MIGHT. That is what opinion means. If it were a fact I would say something like "it is a fact that the sky is above us". I wouldn't say, I think that the sky could be above us and that we won't see the sky being as far above us in the future. Understand? I am just trying to point out the difference between an opinion and a fact so that you won't sound so absolutely crazy in the future.

As for the :MY OPINION part of your post I can only say that we see things differently here and that I tend to see some sort of cap being part of the new CBA and that salaries will have to be adjusted to meet what teams will have to spend. If we go by your scenario and there is a cap then I suppose that Holik would still recieve his $9 mill per year and then the Rags could have a team of underpaid second rate players to support him. (again, so as not to confuse you, Holik is just a name that I am using to show an overpaid player and am not implying anything as to his contract status or age) That is going to be what teams will have to decide for themselves. If they want to tie up all of their money in one player or to spread it out over several of them. It is happening today with allot of teams. That is why I think that most teams will pay their top talent in the $4 to 7 range and that the "franchise" players will be paid slightly more. Of course, the words "I think" and such mean that I am giving my opinion to me but you seem to want to take them as fact so I will again point out that these are just my opinions and are no more valid than anyone elses. Including yours.

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10-28-2003, 11:35 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
All contracts have perfomance incentives.

Gaborik's base salary last year was barely over $1M....but with bonus, he ended up with $4.4M, and now he wants that as his base salary.

If Gaborik was a Red Wing, Avalanche, Flyer, Star or Ranger...he would likely have a $5M+ per season contract under his belt right now.

Uhmm...

Hejduk's currently on a 4 year 8.8 mill contract...
average of 2.2 per season...


I guess that puts this into perspective...

The Wild shouldn't make the mistake Anaheim did...

Hardball him..

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10-28-2003, 11:44 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Loco_Avs
Uhmm...

Hejduk's currently on a 4 year 8.8 mill contract...
average of 2.2 per season...


I guess that puts this into perspective...

The Wild shouldn't make the mistake Anaheim did...

Hardball him..

And this is the first season Tanguay is making more than 1.000.000

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10-28-2003, 12:54 PM
  #45
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Gaborik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tanguay

Hejduk is a better comparison.

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10-29-2003, 06:35 AM
  #46
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Once again the truth kills a thread.

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10-30-2003, 12:23 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackjack
Gaborik >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tanguay

Hejduk is a better comparison.

lol...

i mentioned Hejduk too

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10-30-2003, 12:25 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IGM
Once again the truth kills a thread.

I did good? :p

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