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Bertuzzi extension

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Old
10-27-2003, 10:43 AM
  #1
dawgbone
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Bertuzzi extension

does anyone know how much he will make per year in this deal?

That takes on more team off the list for responsibe spending and potential cap supporter.

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10-27-2003, 10:52 AM
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I don't know hopw it is structured but I heard on the radio that it was 4yrs 28 mil total.

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10-27-2003, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
I don't know hopw it is structured but I heard on the radio that it was 4yrs 28 mil total.
Here's what I heard yesterday on Sportsnet:

The first year of the 4 yr deal is for this season. The previous contract for this year was 3.7M, that was ripped up and replaced with 4.6M PLUS a 3M signing bonus. That means 7.6M for this season.

The next three go like this 2004-05= 7M
2005-06= 6.3M
2006-07= 6.9M
I may have mixed up the last two years, but I think they're right.
Makes the total value of the contract 27.8M US funds. I don't think it's nuts considering Tkachuk makes 11M US this season. Nice work if you can get it.

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10-27-2003, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
Here's what I heard yesterday on Sportsnet:

The first year of the 4 yr deal is for this season. The previous contract for this year was 3.7M, that was ripped up and replaced with 4.6M PLUS a 3M signing bonus. That means 7.6M for this season.

The next three go like this 2004-05= 7M
2005-06= 6.3M
2006-07= 6.9M
I may have mixed up the last two years, but I think they're right.
Makes the total value of the contract 27.8M US funds. I don't think it's nuts considering Tkachuk makes 11M US this season. Nice work if you can get it.
But with the question of cost-certainty, why would you risk it, especially when the owners are allegedly pushing for a salary cap (reportedly around $30 mil)?

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10-27-2003, 03:24 PM
  #5
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I'm not buyin the $30 mil cap idea, I think that's a starting point designed to be at the bottom end myself. Just my opinion, but how exactly would a hard $30mil cap be possible? I don't see it. I personally do not want a hard cap, it destroys the ability to build good consistent teams, but if they're going to go there (I don't think they will, but again, MO) you'd think it'd be $38-40 mil.

I myself want a soft cap with HEAVY luxury tax and penalties along with revenue sharing and C$ equalization. I can't see the last one happening though.

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10-27-2003, 03:44 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
Here's what I heard yesterday on Sportsnet:

The first year of the 4 yr deal is for this season. The previous contract for this year was 3.7M, that was ripped up and replaced with 4.6M PLUS a 3M signing bonus. That means 7.6M for this season.

The next three go like this 2004-05= 7M
2005-06= 6.3M
2006-07= 6.9M
I may have mixed up the last two years, but I think they're right.
Makes the total value of the contract 27.8M US funds. I don't think it's nuts considering Tkachuk makes 11M US this season. Nice work if you can get it.
You are a bit off. There's a $3 million signing bonus, but $2.5 million is being paid this season, $500 000 is being paid next season. You also have the individual figures mixed up a bit, too. As per today's Vancouver Sun:

2003-2004: $6.8 million
2004-2005: $7.1 million
2005-2006: $6.9 million
2006-2007: $6.9 million

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10-27-2003, 03:49 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
I'm not buyin the $30 mil cap idea, I think that's a starting point designed to be at the bottom end myself. Just my opinion, but how exactly would a hard $30mil cap be possible? I don't see it. I personally do not want a hard cap, it destroys the ability to build good consistent teams, but if they're going to go there (I don't think they will, but again, MO) you'd think it'd be $38-40 mil.
I totally agree. The 30$ mil hard cap is the "starting point" for negotiations. It's pretty basic negotiation strategy. They're low-balling the NHLPA, who in turn will, of course, be saying that there will be no cap of any sort and no luxury tax. Eventually they'll come to some sort of compromise in between. If the NHLPA does cave on a hard cap (which I doubt), you can bet your trousers it won't be a 30$ million cap.

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10-27-2003, 03:51 PM
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The point is, the owners can't even use it as a starting point, and Burke has been a heavy promoter of evening the league up...

It is baffling to me.

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10-27-2003, 03:59 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
The point is, the owners can't even use it as a starting point, and Burke has been a heavy promoter of evening the league up...

It is baffling to me.
Yep Burke IMO lost some credibility in his small market rants.

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10-27-2003, 04:54 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
The point is, the owners can't even use it as a starting point, and Burke has been a heavy promoter of evening the league up...
Actually they can and they are. Everyone knows it's just a starting point and it's not realistic, but that doesn't mean that they can't use it. The bertuzzi signing changes nothing in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
It is baffling to me.
People seem to love to bash Burke and I knew that this scenario would result in some serious flaming no matter how it turned out. The reality is that it's not baffling at all.

You will never hear Burke complain about players who earn their money. You will never hear him rant about Forsberg's or Lidstrom's huge contracts. That's never been his argument. Burke is upset with overpaying for players. Guys like Lapointe, Holik, and Prospal, who get offered ridiculous contracts as UFAs are the problem.

Bertuzzi at under 7 million/year is a reasonable amount. He's not pushing the envelope of NHL salaries. In fact, considering his production, he's still somewhat underpaid. Just look at this list of players earning more than him:
Quote:
Forsberg, Peter COLORADO AVALANCHE C $11,000,000.00
Jagr, Jaromir WASHINGTON CAPITALS R $11,000,000.00
Bure, Pavel NEW YORK RANGERS R $10,000,000.00
Fedorov, Sergei MIGHTY DUCKS OF ANAHEIM C $10,000,000.00
Tkachuk, Keith ST. LOUIS BLUES L $10,000,000.00
Lidstrom, Nicklas DETROIT RED WINGS D $10,000,000.00
Sakic, Joe COLORADO AVALANCHE C $9,880,939.00
Pronger, Chris ST. LOUIS BLUES D $9,500,000.00
Blake, Robert COLORADO AVALANCHE D $9,326,519.00
LeClair, John PHILADELPHIA FLYERS L $9,000,000.00
Modano, Michael DALLAS STARS C $9,000,000.00
Sundin, Mats TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS C $9,000,000.00
Guerin, Bill DALLAS STARS R $8,866,445.31
Holik, Robert NEW YORK RANGERS C $8,850,000.00
Weight, Doug ST. LOUIS BLUES C $8,500,000.00
Yashin, Alexei NEW YORK ISLANDERS C $8,400,000.00
Joseph, Curtis DETROIT RED WINGS G $8,000,000.00
Allison, Jason LOS ANGELES KINGS C $8,000,000.00
Iginla, Jarome CALGARY FLAMES R $7,500,000.00
Turgeon, Pierre DALLAS STARS C $7,500,000.00
Roenick, Jeremy PHILADELPHIA FLYERS C $7,500,000.00
Palffy, Zigmund LOS ANGELES KINGS R $7,000,000.00
Belfour, Ed TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS G $7,000,000.00
Burke signed Bertuzzi to a very reasonable deal. The fact that a medium-market franchise such as vancouver has been able to hold on to their core players for so long is a testament to the management's ability to not overpay for players.

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10-27-2003, 05:06 PM
  #11
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This really illustrates why Vancouver has passed us in the West. Not only do they have a superior management, they have fans that would demand a premier player be signed, and that the highest quality product possible be placed on the ice. Not only that, but they're going to make large coin this year if I've heard correctly.

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10-27-2003, 05:08 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
This really illustrates why Vancouver has passed us in the West. Not only do they have a superior management, they have fans that would demand a premier player be signed, and that the highest quality product possible be placed on the ice. Not only that, but they're going to make large coin this year if I've heard correctly.
They also have a larger market and more money.

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10-27-2003, 05:11 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by spaz44
They also have a larger market and more money.
Our building is full, their building is full.

We have corporate sponsors, so do they.

We have alternative revenue streams, so do they.

We don't have a massive TV deal, neither do they.

Kindly explain where all this money is coming from? They were losing HUGE amounts of money only a short time ago, yet, they've turned it around big-time, whereas we are stalled in the middle of mediocrity lane.

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10-27-2003, 05:15 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incawg
Actually they can and they are. Everyone knows it's just a starting point and it's not realistic, but that doesn't mean that they can't use it. The bertuzzi signing changes nothing in that regard.
Owners: We want a $30 mil salary cap!

Union: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... there are 3 teams in the league with a salary under $30 million.

End of conversation. If they try to use $30mil as a starting point, it will just insult the intelligence of everyone involved, and not help at all.


Quote:
People seem to love to bash Burke and I knew that this scenario would result in some serious flaming no matter how it turned out. The reality is that it's not baffling at all.
It is baffling... this is the guy who whines and moans about the league wide cost uncertainty, and how the GM's don't make smart decisions, and then he goes and signs a guy to $7mil per season. If this was 2 years ago, hey, it's a great move. I question the timing. GMs have more power now then they have in years, and not only does Burke cave in and sign him, but he tears up the current contract, and only ties him up for three more years after this year.... still leaving him able to bolt as a UFA.

Quote:
You will never hear Burke complain about players who earn their money. You will never hear him rant about Forsberg's or Lidstrom's huge contracts. That's never been his argument. Burke is upset with overpaying for players. Guys like Lapointe, Holik, and Prospal, who get offered ridiculous contracts as UFAs.

Bertuzzi at under 7 million/year is a reasonable amount. He's not pushing the envelope of NHL salaries. In fact, considering his production, he's still somewhat underpaid. Just look at this list of players earning more than him:
He's not pushing the envelope for salaries? Are you sure about that? Don't forget, you can't compare him to guys who signed as UFA's, or agreed to deals to take them past the magical cutoff line... which isn't realistic. Now, not only does Todd get the big fat contract, he is free to walk at age 31. Compare him to other guys who aren't UFA's, or who aren't signed into their UFA years, and Bertuzzi is pretty darn close to the top of that list.

Quote:
Burke signed Bertuzzi to a very reasonable deal. The fact that a medium-market franchise such as vancouver has been able to hold on to their core players for so long is a testament to the management's ability to not overpay for players.
If there is a cap at $40 million, for arguments sake, Burke has backed himself into a corner. Had he waited, and not caved in to Bertuzzi, which is exactly what he did, he may have been able to use the new CBA to get an even better deal out of it.

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10-27-2003, 05:16 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
This really illustrates why Vancouver has passed us in the West. Not only do they have a superior management, they have fans that would demand a premier player be signed, and that the highest quality product possible be placed on the ice. Not only that, but they're going to make large coin this year if I've heard correctly.
Oh, come on. They had Naslund who signed a sweetheart deal. They struck gold with Bertuzzi developing into a premier player. They have ownership that appears to be willing to budget for 2 or 3 rounds of playoffs now. They also have a market that's willing to pay 25 to 50% more for their season tickets.

Although I would say that Crawford is the better coach, and that Burke has, in many ways, done a better job overall in the GM department, they are basically rolling the dice on the money front. Rolling the dice is what got the league into the current position it's in, in the first place...

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10-27-2003, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
Our building is full, their building is full.

We have corporate sponsors, so do they.

We have alternative revenue streams, so do they.

We don't have a massive TV deal, neither do they.

Kindly explain where all this money is coming from? They were losing HUGE amounts of money only a short time ago, yet, they've turned it around big-time, whereas we are stalled in the middle of mediocrity lane.
You may want to look at the fact that their arena holds about 4,000 more people per game, which results in 164,000 more fans per year.

That pretty much sums up the difference.

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10-27-2003, 05:22 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
You may want to look at the fact that their arena holds about 4,000 more people per game, which results in 164,000 more fans per year.

That pretty much sums up the difference.
How exactly does that account for the extra money, not only to cover the payroll, but to make a rather huge profit, as they've been claiming? If those tickets average $100, there's another 16 million there. This does account for some of the difference, but not all, and that's if the tickets average $100, which I doubt the extras do. BUT, since when did over 18K - over 16K equal 4000?

That does however bring up another issue, the fact that once the dust settles, we do need a bigger arena. 16,839 just isn't large enough capacity.

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10-27-2003, 05:28 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
End of conversation. If they try to use $30mil as a starting point, it will just insult the intelligence of everyone involved, and not help at all.
What you seem to be missing is that they've already used 30mil as the starting point. Dumb or not, it's been done. The bertuzzi situation has nothing to do with this, so I have no idea why you brought it into the conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
only ties him up for three more years after this year.... still leaving him able to bolt as a UFA.
wtf? what was burke supposed to do? tie him into a 10 year contract like the isles did with yashin? Now that would be stupid. The window for the canucks to win the cup is the next 4 seasons. That's exactly how long bert is signed for. If they can stretch it out, they will. But to sign a guy to anything longer than a 4 year deal with the uncertainty of the CBA makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
He's not pushing the envelope for salaries? Are you sure about that? Don't forget, you can't compare him to guys who signed as UFA's, or agreed to deals to take them past the magical cutoff line... which isn't realistic. Now, not only does Todd get the big fat contract, he is free to walk at age 31. Compare him to other guys who aren't UFA's, or who aren't signed into their UFA years, and Bertuzzi is pretty darn close to the top of that list.
Players signed as RFAs making more than bertuzzi:
Forsberg, Peter COLORADO AVALANCHE C $11,000,000.00
Jagr, Jaromir WASHINGTON CAPITALS R $11,000,000.00
Bure, Pavel NEW YORK RANGERS R $10,000,000.00
Lidstrom, Nicklas DETROIT RED WINGS D $10,000,000.00
Pronger, Chris ST. LOUIS BLUES D $9,500,000.00
Modano, Michael DALLAS STARS C $9,000,000.00
Sundin, Mats TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS C $9,000,000.00
Yashin, Alexei NEW YORK ISLANDERS C $8,400,000.00
Allison, Jason LOS ANGELES KINGS C $8,000,000.00
Iginla, Jarome CALGARY FLAMES R $7,500,000.00
Palffy, Zigmund LOS ANGELES KINGS R $7,000,000.00

Hardly at "the top" of that list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Had he waited, and not caved in to Bertuzzi, which is exactly what he did, he may have been able to use the new CBA to get an even better deal out of it.
Once again, you're completely wrong. I'm not trying to be rude here but I would suggest looking into the details of these processes instead of just assuming things. It just wastes everybody's time.

If Burke doesn't get this contract done now:
(a) a new contract will be done during the offseason - same result but bertuzzi probably demands more
(b) bertuzzi files for arbitration, gets 7 million anyway and then is a UFA after next season - yeh, that would really be a smart move for the canucks.
(c) no deal gets done, bertuzzi holds out and is traded or becomes a UFA after the new CBA - once again, a terrible move

This is as good of a situation as possible as far as the Canucks organization is concerned.

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10-27-2003, 05:45 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
Our building is full, their building is full.

We have corporate sponsors, so do they.

We have alternative revenue streams, so do they.

We don't have a massive TV deal, neither do they.

Kindly explain where all this money is coming from? They were losing HUGE amounts of money only a short time ago, yet, they've turned it around big-time, whereas we are stalled in the middle of mediocrity lane.
Their arena is larger and their average ticket price is higher than that of the Oilers. In addition they have a billionaire owner who is apparently willing to take big hits to his wallet if you believe the kind of losses Burke claims the Canucks have had.

In terms of your comment that they have turned it around big-time I would ask the question how exactly are you measuring that? If you look back over the past decade the Oilers have made the playoffs more often, including getting to the second round once more than the Canucks. The Canucks have yet to do anything. It's all unrealized potential as of right now. There is only one goal in the NHL and that is to win the Stanley Cup and Vancouver has had no more success at doing that recently than the Oilers.

It took Bertuzzi and Naslund five years together to get to the point where they were both putting up really big numbers and until last year to obtain their current status of being considered elite players in the NHL. During that seven year span the Oilers have seen Cujo, Weight and Guerin (among others) leave the team for financial reasons.

Combine that with the fact that the Oilers under the current CBA cannot afford the kind of contracts that Vancouver has signed Bertuzzi and Jovo to and you start to realize that Edmonton and Vancouver are in different situations. Vancouver, outside of Bure (EDIT: actually they traded Bure because he wanted out of Vancouver not because of his salary.) has never been forced to unload top talent for monetary reasons the way Edmonton has unloaded numerous players. The Oilers are in a constant state of rebuilding in order to keep the payroll down. That's just a fact of life in Oilers land, which is why a new CBA is absolutely necessary for the Oilers to survive in Edmonton long-term.

 
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10-27-2003, 05:48 PM
  #20
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LHM1, cough up 40% more on what you currently pay for your season tickets and have the rest of the fans do it while selling out Skyreach and then come ***** about how much better managed the Canucks are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
That does however bring up another issue, the fact that once the dust settles, we do need a bigger arena. 16,839 just isn't large enough capacity.
If the Oilers survive the new CBA, building a new stadium has to be the next big thing happening in the Oilers future. The biggest reason to build a new stadium would be to add more corporate boxes and to generate more revenue from events other than hockey.

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10-27-2003, 06:05 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incawg
What you seem to be missing is that they've already used 30mil as the starting point. Dumb or not, it's been done. The bertuzzi situation has nothing to do with this, so I have no idea why you brought it into the conversation.



wtf? what was burke supposed to do? tie him into a 10 year contract like the isles did with yashin? Now that would be stupid. The window for the canucks to win the cup is the next 4 seasons. That's exactly how long bert is signed for. If they can stretch it out, they will. But to sign a guy to anything longer than a 4 year deal with the uncertainty of the CBA makes no sense.



Players signed as RFAs making more than bertuzzi:
Forsberg, Peter COLORADO AVALANCHE C $11,000,000.00
Jagr, Jaromir WASHINGTON CAPITALS R $11,000,000.00
Bure, Pavel NEW YORK RANGERS R $10,000,000.00
Lidstrom, Nicklas DETROIT RED WINGS D $10,000,000.00
Pronger, Chris ST. LOUIS BLUES D $9,500,000.00
Modano, Michael DALLAS STARS C $9,000,000.00
Sundin, Mats TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS C $9,000,000.00
Yashin, Alexei NEW YORK ISLANDERS C $8,400,000.00
Allison, Jason LOS ANGELES KINGS C $8,000,000.00
Iginla, Jarome CALGARY FLAMES R $7,500,000.00
Palffy, Zigmund LOS ANGELES KINGS R $7,000,000.00

Hardly at "the top" of that list.



Once again, you're completely wrong. I'm not trying to be rude here but I would suggest looking into the details of these processes instead of just assuming things. It just wastes everybody's time.

If Burke doesn't get this contract done now:
(a) a new contract will be done during the offseason - same result but bertuzzi probably demands more
(b) bertuzzi files for arbitration, gets 7 million anyway and then is a UFA after next season - yeh, that would really be a smart move for the canucks.
(c) no deal gets done, bertuzzi holds out and is traded or becomes a UFA after the new CBA - once again, a terrible move

This is as good of a situation as possible as far as the Canucks organization is concerned.
I will make a correction... I only looked at Bertuzzi's age, not his birthdate... now looking at it, they have Bertuzzi locked up to at least one year into (what is now) his UFA period... which makes the deal a little better...

But even still, this signing does not help the owners cause, nor does it support anything Burke has been talking about since he took over in Vancouver.

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10-27-2003, 06:08 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
How exactly does that account for the extra money, not only to cover the payroll, but to make a rather huge profit, as they've been claiming? If those tickets average $100, there's another 16 million there. This does account for some of the difference, but not all, and that's if the tickets average $100, which I doubt the extras do. BUT, since when did over 18K - over 16K equal 4000?

That does however bring up another issue, the fact that once the dust settles, we do need a bigger arena. 16,839 just isn't large enough capacity.
My bad, for some reason I thought the arena held 20,000 in Vancouver... I guess that was for basketball.

Either way, that is still 87,000 more fans per season... and that does make a huge difference when you factor in things like concessions and that (don't the Canucks own their own arena as well?), which increases it even more.

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10-27-2003, 06:49 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
does anyone know how much he will make per year in this deal?

That takes on more team off the list for responsibe spending and potential cap supporter.
I totally disagree with the last part of your post. Totally totally disagree. Brian Burke is THE supporter of a new CBA and responsible spending. By your tone your infering that any team who gives a long term big money deal, no matter to whom the player, is automatically anti-cap and to be hated. The 'nucks traded for bertuzzi and developed him when his stock was low, just as we are trying to do with isbister at the moment. They cared for him until he repaid them back in full, becoming the best forward in the league. In terms of scoring, hitting, two way play, and leadership, I don't see how bertuzzi can be considered anything other than a top 5 forward, and perhaps the best. They didn't go out and sign someone who they never developed, a la rangers. They didn't go out and outbid anybody. They gave the bes player in the league a contract that he deserved. When the oilers get a 95 point power forward, I expect them to shell out the big bucks for him to keep him under the new CBA...that's how it's supposed to happen. Giving a player a good contract who deserves it and who you developed is not a bad thing, it's in fact a good thing for the league. He deserved that contract. Years as oilers fans have jaded us, but guess what, it's not a crime to keep your players.

The contract was not at all big compared to what some others are making. They are still in very very good cap position. What the hell are you *****ing about? Would you have had them trade bertuzzi for prospects just to ensure that they don't have a player above 6 million bucks a year? They had the money to spend due to playoff revenue and great ticket sales, and they used it. Good for burke, good for Vancouver, good for the fans. Oh, by the way, for a franchise that was near extension after the messier debacle, they are know stronger than ever, and it's not because their trading away all there good players, or because there spending excessively. It's because they've worked hard. So again I ask, what is it that you are complaining about here?

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10-27-2003, 06:56 PM
  #24
incawg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
I will make a correction... I only looked at Bertuzzi's age, not his birthdate... now looking at it, they have Bertuzzi locked up to at least one year into (what is now) his UFA period... which makes the deal a little better...
Assuming, of course, that the UFA age is not lowered with the new CBA. It has been widely speculated that one of the concessions that the owners will have to make in order to get a cap is the lowering of the UFA age to 30 or 29. This certainly played a big role in the negotiations.

Quote:
But even still, this signing does not help the owners cause, nor does it support anything Burke has been talking about since he took over in Vancouver.
Burke signed Bertuzzi to a very reasonable deal. He signed him for less than what comparable players are making. Like I said, out of all the alternatives this was - by far - the best option for Canucks management. Irregardless of what the new CBA looks like, Bertuzzi was going to be able to get the big bucks.

I know people love to bash Burke, but there really is no case to do so here.

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10-27-2003, 07:17 PM
  #25
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Burke has his faults, but Bertuzzi's contract isn't one of them. It isn't extreme, by any stretch of the imagination, to assume that the premier power forward in the NHL will, in the new CBA, command a salary that averages $6.8 million.

Going into 2004-2005, Burke has the following major contracts on the ledger:

Markus Naslund, $7 million
Todd Bertuzzi, $6.8 million
Trevor Linden, $2 million
Ed Jovanovski, $4.75 million
Marek Malik, $1.75 million

I think we'll be okay.

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