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Instant gratification vs. long term planning

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Old
03-19-2006, 06:48 PM
  #76
blueberry
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[QUOTE=Jag68Vlady27]This thread is a joke. etc etc. Good post bud, I think the same but too lazy to write it, plus you know you'll take flak!

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03-19-2006, 07:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Catch-22
For all the detractors,

Please list your accomplishments below, reserving the first line for the number of stanley cups you've won...first as a GM, then as an NHL player, presidents trophies etc etc. What we will then do is compare your accomplishment to those of Bob Gainey and that way everybody will get to choose objectively who they think is better for the team. Is it you or Bob?


Your accomplishments, please.

1)

2)

3)

etc etc.
What a pompous, condescending post!

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03-19-2006, 08:27 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by sXe
I know you want to make a point but you're not even close.
You're right I forgot about Sundstrom, and Dagenais if you want to REALLY get into it.

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03-19-2006, 10:08 PM
  #79
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I'm moderatly happy with Gainey so far. He looks like he's going in the right direction.

But the jury is still out, I figured the time hasnt come yet to make the key acquisition. We were having too many young prospect coming in this year with the lock-out to actively look at help from the outside.

I'll have a much better answer in September. He needs to come out of this summer with a mid/long-term upgrade at a key position.

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03-19-2006, 10:50 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoupeStanley
I'm moderatly happy with Gainey so far. He looks like he's going in the right direction.

But the jury is still out, I figured the time hasnt come yet to make the key acquisition. We were having too many young prospect coming in this year with the lock-out to actively look at help from the outside.

I'll have a much better answer in September. He needs to come out of this summer with a mid/long-term upgrade at a key position.
With 19 million He should be able to purchase two talents. The key will be whether GG unlocks BG's chastity belt.

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Old
03-20-2006, 01:47 AM
  #81
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I think Gainey has done well since he took over. It seems to me that he has been trying to address what the team needs and to build this team into a contender. He's no doubt made some mistakes but, my God, who hasn't. And for those *****ing and complaining please tell me what you would have personally done differently.

I'm sure Gainey would have loved to have had this player or that player, but the fact is that it can be costly and not every player wants to come to Montreal. I'm so far satisfied with the job he's doing (even if I don't always agree with certain moves) and I trust that he is making the best moves he is capable of given the contingencies that he's faced with.

He's also had to make some very tough decisions. One thing I like about him is that he gives his players the benefit of the doubt. He gave Theo a huge contract and every confidence in him but when he stunk it up he did the right thing and got rid of him. I personally liked Julien and didn't like his being fired but, in retrospect, things were spiraling out of control. Gainey took the helm and has changed things around. Remember at that time how everyone (and I mean damn well everyone) thought the Habs season was as good as finished. And now we are fighting for a playoff spot! Um er, maybe give Gainey a little credit here.

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03-20-2006, 01:58 AM
  #82
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For this season, Gainey did the best he could. Ever since the 03-04 playoffs I've been down on Theodore and didn't think as much of him as most people. But there's no way anyone could have predicted he would be THAT bad. So that screwed things up for this season and made us take a small step backward.

I have no problem with the roster that was iced at the first game this season.

But where I think Gainey failed, and something that was clear to me from the get go, is the lenght and amount given in the contracts during last summer.

It was clear to me after the 03-04 playoffs that Markov was the man on defense for us and that we needed to ink him long term. Instead Souray was annointed as our best defender with the contract he was given.

It was clear to me Koivu was a keeper and Theodore wasn't. One got a sweet deal while the other one was signed for 1 year.

Then Gainey went out and got Kovalev back for way too long. Personally I wanted a dman of his caliber instead of him. Would have that made things better ? Maybe not. But one thing is sure, if Kovalev isn't earning his paycheck now, or barely earning it, think of the kind of player he'll be in 2-3 years. I'm thinking 4.5M won't be looking so good.

Then, Dandenault, for god's sake... holy overpayment batman and for way too long !

Ryder is another guy I would probably have tried signing long term. And I'm thinking he'll bounce back next season and become a much better player. What's happening with Ryder is the sophomore struggles coupled with missing a part of the training camp. He's still scoring goals at a nice clip though.

So if Gainey was building for the future without putting too much attention to the current season, I feel like he did a very poor job. The promising rookies and youngsters we have were mostly there when Gainey took the job so he doesn't deserve any credit for them.

At the beginning of the season, at the golf tournament, players were dreaming of the cup. There's no way Gainey was building for the future at that point. He thought he had improved the team for the 05-06 season and I also thought it was a much better team.

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Old
03-20-2006, 06:42 AM
  #83
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Basically, I agree that you have to build a team chemistry to win, so I like that Gainey is going slow, but I would have changed the window dressing. I also would have tried to step down the number of Euros on the team (sorry, y'all). Not because I'm prejudiced, but because I think they are not properly taught the NA game and do not in general have the grit.

I would have signed Hamrlik. Overpayed if necessary and then dumped Rivet, if possible. I would have signed three puck moving defensemen to give our kids a foundation, and dumped whatever salary was on the team to make this happen (Bonk, etc.

I would have not have traded for Bonk. He's the antithesis of what we need, anybody who ever saw an Ottawa game knew that. Dave Scatchard would have been better, but I don't know these guys personally, so I don't know if they would fit team chemistry.

I would have liked a scorer, not Kovalev. Kovalev is not a scorer, no matter how fun he is to watch with the puck. I wasn't sold on Selanne myself, but I would have at least checked him out. All they had to do was go see him skate. Could have picked up Selanne and another scorer ta boot.

I would have gotten rid of Ribeiro, something I'm not sure I would do now.

I would have DEFINITELY made a Theodore/Ryder for Luongo trade, if that rumor is true. Like Scotty Bowman believed, you cannot win with a platoon, you need a legitimate elite goalie, and neither Huet nor Aeby is one of those imo.

I would not have given Kovalev and Koivu and Theodore and Dandenault and Bonk those big contracts. Easier said than done, I know. But if I were to overspend, it would have been on defensemen.

Also, I'm not sold on the Chipchura and Price picks. Chipchura can't skate and Price looks like a problem child. You don't take a goalie in the top 5 unless he's a sure stud imo. Brule was there, Staal, Bourdon, etc. Get a forward. Goalies have no value on the trade market. Buffalo found that out the hard way.

Then again, I would have traded down to get Parise and Stewart. Not sure about that now. I wanted Phaneuf in the draft, which looks smart now, but Kosty was my second choice. Carter looks good now, but Kosty has all his tools and more. I think he'll turn out fine, but his skating is a concern.

With all the skill up front, I would have turned this team loose, which means you need guys on the blueline who can make a play. The players we got stuck us in the middle. We aren't good enough defensively to play conservatively or smart enough go up-tempo. I think we're stuck between two visions right now: Andre Savard's and Gainey's. I liked the direction Savard was going in if you add size to it. I do not want to watch Dallas Stars hockey and pray that is not in our future.

At this point, I would clear out as much deadwood as possible and get some defensemen in here. There are 20 good ones on the market, so there's no excuse. I would give Bonk to any takers. I would package Rivet and Zednik for one of our needs. Ribs and Ryder can also be packaged. All four of those guys would be gone if I could manage a return for them. I would rebuild the defense starting with this core:

Markov-
Souray- ( who would probably drop to the third pair when Komi is ready)
-Komisarek

I would keep Bouillon as the 7th guy.

As for Koivu/Kovalev, no harm done. They should retain their value throughout the life of the contract if we are able to move them at the trade deadline.

All in all though, that's just window dressing (other than the D! and maybe the Price pick). Gainey hasn't lost any value and has kept the options open for the future.


Last edited by tinyzombies: 03-20-2006 at 07:00 AM.
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Old
03-20-2006, 07:56 AM
  #84
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Gainey's highest achievement so far was to snag Steve Begin.
After that, his report card tends to get a bit worrisome.

Dandenault. He's been outplayed by Bouillon and (lately) by Streit.

Theodore. Gainey lucked out in moving this guy, just as he did with Donald Audette 5 years ago. Overpaid for a doubtful product, almost got burned.

Kovalev. A nice player when he's going good, but for whatever reason, Kovalev is producing at a level well below "elite".

Bonk. Disaster.

Sundstrom. Completely unnecessary with Bulis, Higgins, Plekanec and Begin in the fold.

Langdon, Vandermeer, Ivanans, Downey. Peculiar and expensive moves.

Gainey has now added Koivu to the overpaid list. Probably had to sign him, but it was a rich deal.

To me, Gainey has so far been a disappointment.

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Old
03-20-2006, 08:38 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JV
Gainey's highest achievement so far was to snag Steve Begin.
After that, his report card tends to get a bit worrisome.

Dandenault. He's been outplayed by Bouillon and (lately) by Streit.

dandenault his play was great recently ...

Theodore. Gainey lucked out in moving this guy, just as he did with Donald Audette 5 years ago. Overpaid for a doubtful product, almost got burned.

he was traded ...

Kovalev. A nice player when he's going good, but for whatever reason, Kovalev is producing at a level well below "elite".

kovalev or satan , i choose kovalev ...

Bonk. Disaster.

bonk+huet vs garon+3eme round fair deal

Sundstrom. Completely unnecessary with Bulis, Higgins, Plekanec and Begin in the fold.

800 k is a not bad for him , he is ufa this year , he will not return ...

Langdon, Vandermeer, Ivanans, Downey. Peculiar and expensive moves.

bad thing ? no

Gainey has now added Koivu to the overpaid list. Probably had to sign him, but it was a rich deal.

when i saw the other deal , it's not a bad deal ... he just set the price on the market !

To me, Gainey has so far been a disappointment.

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Old
03-20-2006, 08:41 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by WEEB
People have to stop giving so much credit to Gainey for what he did in Dallas. The fact is, the Stars' owner did not care about his budget, and so BG was free to sign anybody to any kind of contract. This is why they were a contendor for so long, not because of brilliant drafting or great trades. Some will say that the Rangers used to sign everyone and they were never any good, but that is the exception to the rule (we actually saw this exemple in our Statistics class!). In fact, there was a very strong correlation between the points collected and the money spent.

However, BG does not have that chance anymore. There is not a cap, plus Gillett does not want to spend all the cap room, as he is more here to make money rather than win championships. A mediocre team can easily make money in Montreal, as evident by the fact that the Bell Centre has been sold out for every single game.
.
You have no clue what you're talking about. No clue at all.

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Old
03-20-2006, 08:43 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by raketheleaves
Also, I'm not sold on the Chipchura and Price picks. Chipchura can't skate and Price looks like a problem child. You don't take a goalie in the top 5 unless he's a sure stud imo. Brule was there, Staal, Bourdon, etc. Get a forward. Goalies have no value on the trade market. Buffalo found that out the hard way.
Bourdon and staal was not top 5 pick .... nobody can know they will become as good as a top 5 pick

brule is injury prone , hum like koivu and koivu is suppossed to be bad because of this

carey price will become an elite goalie , biron is an elite goalie ? elite goalie are the thing that have the best value on the market ....

from what i saw with team canada , chipchura can skate very well ....

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03-20-2006, 09:07 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsaku
You have no clue what you're talking about. No clue at all.
Really? Why so?

BG's great drafting? The only players that have had any impact in Dallas that Gainey drafted were Langenbrunner, Turco and Morrow.

BG's great actual trades? Yes, he did get Niedermayer... for Jarome Iginla. Apart from that, other players he got were purely through salary dumps and free agency.

Dallas' owner caring about his budget? For the past 10 years, Dallas has always been in the top 5 in terms of salary.

Gillett preferring to win than make a profit? Gillett isn't that rich of a man, he doesn't have the resources to simply throw his money away, he is there to make some. And BG has made it abundantly clear that they want to remain in the 35-mil range in terms of salary, so he won't spend up to the cap.

I'm wrong? I really don't see how...

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03-20-2006, 09:09 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gars59
carey price will become an elite goalie , biron is an elite goalie ? elite goalie are the thing that have the best value on the market ....

from what i saw with team canada , chipchura can skate very well ....
You know that?! You have a cristal ball?! Cause Rick DiPietro and M-A Fleury really are helping their teams be real contendors.

As for Chip, Jason Ward could also skate in juniors.

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03-20-2006, 09:20 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WEEB
Really? Why so?

BG's great drafting? The only players that have had any impact in Dallas that Gainey drafted were Langenbrunner, Turco and Morrow.

BG's great actual trades? Yes, he did get Niedermayer... for Jarome Iginla. Apart from that, other players he got were purely through salary dumps and free agency.

Dallas' owner caring about his budget? For the past 10 years, Dallas has always been in the top 5 in terms of salary.

Gillett preferring to win than make a profit? Gillett isn't that rich of a man, he doesn't have the resources to simply throw his money away, he is there to make some. And BG has made it abundantly clear that they want to remain in the 35-mil range in terms of salary, so he won't spend up to the cap.

I'm wrong? I really don't see how...
First I think we give way too much credit or discredit to a GM for drafting players. He do has his word to say but based on what scouts and their director told him. But does the guy has time to do his own amateur scouting as well. I don't think so.

Trades? He win some and lose some so that's why in my book he's OK, he's an average GM but shouldn't be fired for being so. I mean not right now, since stability could be good for a team you know.....

Caring for budget, and not wanting to spend cap, well if I was you, and if this was true, 'cause I don't believe it is, don't blame them for doing so, blame the people for going. Blame the people for not eating before going and spends 50$ on 2 hot-dogs and a coke. Blame the people for going with the only objective to boo players, our own players 'cause they really think it will help them relax and be better.....

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03-20-2006, 09:31 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WEEB
You know that?! You have a cristal ball?! Cause Rick DiPietro and M-A Fleury really are helping their teams be real contendors.

As for Chip, Jason Ward could also skate in juniors.
please
andreychuck,robitaille many other was suppossed to don't know how to skate and they become great player

Carey Price is in the same class of fleury,dipietro,luongo when they are draft ....

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03-20-2006, 09:41 AM
  #92
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The major thing is that Gainey dodged a bullet when he shipped Theodore to Denver. Had he ended up stuck with #60 for another year or two, life would have become hell.

At least now he can focus on cleaning up the Bonk/Ribeiro miss up the middle. This will be no simple matter. Plekanec can't be expected to evolve into a legit 2nd line center by next September.

Despite what some people believe, Gainey does not have a golden touch as GM. He's a pretty sobre guy, but he makes his share of mistakes, and he seldom looks like a genuis....

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03-20-2006, 09:44 AM
  #93
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I'm a "Gainey fan". But it's true, if you want to itemize his moves, his signings, or his non-moves as many posters have done in this thread, the negatives generally outweight the positives by a fairly decisive margin. Even a "Gainey fan" can readily admit that.

The hope I see in Gainey is related more to "intangibles". He represents a firm, respectable authority figure to guide the team, somebody who understands all aspects of the game and the franchise, historically, culturally, etc, and can react thoughtfully, yet still independently and decisively within that complex environment. I think that is ultimately going to prove to be the biggest benefit that Gainey brings to the team. His demeanour and character will rub off, and hopefully it will help to restore some of the once-famous "class" that so epitomized the organization. Gainey exudes class. Eventually, the Habs will exude class in all areas again too, as a reflection of the man at the helm.

But the reality that comes along with that, is that the NHL has become a very complex competitive environment too, and class alone, or even intelligence along with it, is never going to be enough to build a winner. I think the Habs are trying to build a winner. So far, although it's very early in the program, the steps taken to achieve that goal haven't looked very good. But it's just not as simple as we all want to make it sound in the modern NHL.

I'm pretty sure that management in Florida, Pittsburgh, Long Island, Boston, and Toronto all felt that they were taking the best steps they could take to make the playoffs and win this year too. Maybe none of them will make it. Out West, two of Colorado, Vancouver, LA, Edmonton, Anaheim, and San Jose won't make it. Minnesota probably thought they'd be more competitive. Chicago and Columbus might even have hoped. It's tough. Teams are trying. GMs are trying. Some really good, really smart GMs aren't going to make it. There's an element of chance, of chemistry, of unpredictability in the whole process that makes it impossible for any manager to know for certain what his team will achieve.

As fans, I think we have the right to hope for, or even expect, that our team will be one of the ones that lucks out in the process. But if it doesn't turn out as successfully as we had hoped, I think we also owe it to ourselves to try to consider all of the reasons why it didn't, and look ahead to the future to consider how things might still be progressing positively in a longer term viewpoint, despite a setback in the present.

I have yet to hear or a compelling argument about what Gainey could have done differently that would convince me that our team would have performed significantly better than it has this year, or a compelling argument for what he could have done differently that would decisively place us on a path for greater success than we currently seem to be progressing towards in the future. Arguing about who he signed and for how much doesn't really help in that respect, because none of us has any insight whatsoever into which players were truly available, or what the salary/contract duration expectations of any players were. We can only speculate, and as much as I enjoy speculating along with everybody else, my ability to endlessly conjure such speculation does not yet override my belief that Gainey is at least on-par with myself and other denizens of hockey message boards in his ability to identify team needs and conjure similar solutions for himself. However, unlike us, he has real-world constraints placed on what he can actually bring to fruition out of his ideas, whereas we have complete freedom to just keep conjuring and revising our plans, in foresight and hindsight, and since we have no access to reality, we aren't remotely constrained by it.

I just think we need to keep that somewhere in the backs of our collective minds. We don't need to go around calling eachother worshippers or bashers of Gainey, and we don't need to curb our enthusiasm for the team or our imaginations about what the team could be doing differently. It's fun to post our ideas about what we would have done differently. But at the end of the day, I sort of hope we all realize we're just indulging in fantasy by doing so. Psychologically, we all need to do that, and we all benefit from it. It's part of why we're attracted to hockey and entertained by it, and why those of us here on HFBoards take it to the extreme levels we do by following it so closely and debating it so passionately here. But I guess there's a bit of danger if we really let ourselves completely lose sight of the boundary line between fantasy and reality? I guess maybe we should at least try to respect eachothers' fantasy hockey ideas... we try to respect mcphee's goat and stocking fetishes, gros bill's codpiece fantasies, dutchy's exhibitionest tendencies, etc... if we can respect that stuff, then geez, I would think we could broaden our perspectives on hockey opinions with relative ease!

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03-20-2006, 11:09 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by HF-Addict
So discussing for you is agreeing with what you originally say? Thread was doing fine before you started thinking of yourself as way higher than you are, as you would say.

I haven't seen any post that could be summarized by "Gainey sux, Gainey is useless, and all the rest of the crap you posted. Every posts have been fairly well written. Long thought-out posts, as an honor to your original post.

But now, you are the one pretending to know better than the rest, people have reacted in disagreement or not. If you suggest we send a application for being GM of the Montreal Canadiens, by putting our money where our mouth are, then you are as foolish as those last posts made you look like.

Thanks for saving me the trouble of typing all these words, because after all I'm a chimp who can't discuss hockey because I've never won a Stanley Cup...

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