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Greatest Forwards of All Time #14

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest forward of all time? #14
Bobby Clarke 14 16.67%
Bryan Trottier 26 30.95%
Steve Yzerman 18 21.43%
Ted Lindsay 5 5.95%
Marcel Dionne 12 14.29%
Syl Apps 3 3.57%
Milt Schmidt 0 0%
Joe Malone 2 2.38%
Andy Bathgate 1 1.19%
Henri Richard 3 3.57%
Voters: 84. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-20-2006, 12:49 PM
  #1
canucksfan
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Greatest Forwards of All Time #14

Stan Mikita won with 13 votes. Henri Richard will be added next. I am going to vote for Bobby Clarke and add Newsy Lalonde.

#1 Gretzky(64.71%)
#2 Lemieux(63.77%)
#3 Howe(63.41%)
#4 Richard(31.58%)
#5 Beliveau(53.49%)
#6 Hull(28.81%)
#7 LaFleur(72.73% won tiebreaker)
#8 Esposito(34.88%)
#9 Morenz(23.81%)
#10 Messier(24.29%)
#11 Jagr(30.99%)
#12 Bossy(24.56%)
#13 Mikita(27.08%)

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Old
03-20-2006, 02:12 PM
  #2
#66
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Trots (I'm hoping for the last time). Add Bill Cook.

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Old
03-20-2006, 02:26 PM
  #3
Evilo
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Trottier.
And please why isn't Ron Francis on this list?

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Old
03-20-2006, 02:52 PM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Trottier.
And please why isn't Ron Francis on this list?
Francis' place in the HHOF is assured. But to have him ahead of Lalonde, Cyclone Taylor, Sakic, Mahovlic or Kurri, let alone any of the players up for voting right now, would be a mistake.

This should be a two-horse race between Trottier and Clarke. The only other player in their class is "Terrible" Ted Lindsay.

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Old
03-20-2006, 03:53 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
This should be a two-horse race between Trottier and Clarke. The only other player in their class is "Terrible" Ted Lindsay.
Clarke will finish much lower in this poll than he should ... call it the "likability" factor.

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Old
03-20-2006, 06:08 PM
  #6
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I voted for Clarke in order to try to keep Yserman from winning. Add Lalonde.

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Old
03-20-2006, 07:34 PM
  #7
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Vote Lindsay. add newsy lalonde.

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Old
03-20-2006, 07:56 PM
  #8
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Clarke. Add Burnaby Joe.

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Old
03-20-2006, 08:01 PM
  #9
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voted for Bobby Clarke for the third time in a row. Add "newsy" Lalonde.

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Old
03-20-2006, 08:12 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Francis' place in the HHOF is assured. But to have him ahead of Lalonde, Cyclone Taylor, Sakic, Mahovlic or Kurri, let alone any of the players up for voting right now, would be a mistake.

This should be a two-horse race between Trottier and Clarke. The only other player in their class is "Terrible" Ted Lindsay.
I don't think that comparing Sakic or Kurri to Francis is out of the question. I think if Francis doesn't have the edge on those 2, it's probably very close. I can't comment on the other 3, though.

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Old
03-20-2006, 08:16 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Francis' place in the HHOF is assured. But to have him ahead of Lalonde, Cyclone Taylor, Sakic, Mahovlic or Kurri, let alone any of the players up for voting right now, would be a mistake.
Agreed. I think you'll see both Francis and Dionne end up much earlier on this list than they should because they sit #4 & 5 on the all-time points list.

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Old
03-20-2006, 08:52 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Clarke will finish much lower in this poll than he should ... call it the "likability" factor.
I think if Clarke finishes somewhere between 11 and 15, then that will be appropriate. The only result that is unarguably way out of whack (more than five spots above or below what he should be) is Jagr. (I wouldn't have Jagr in the top 20, reason being you will never win a Cup with Jagr as your best player or even your best forward). Messier came in at No. 10, but he's definitely one of the top 15 forwards ever.

Trotts and Clarke have to be in the top 15. Their leadership, ability to beat you in so many ways (offence, defence, physical play) and big-game mentality made them so great.


Add Newsy Lalonde.

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Old
03-20-2006, 08:56 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
I think if Clarke finishes somewhere between 11 and 15, then that will be appropriate. The only result that is unarguably way out of whack (more than five spots above or below what he should be) is Jagr. (I wouldn't have Jagr in the top 20, reason being you will never win a Cup with Jagr as your best player or even your best forward). Messier came in at No. 10, but he's definitely one of the top 15 forwards ever.

Trotts and Clarke have to be in the top 15. Their leadership, ability to beat you in so many ways (offence, defence, physical play) and big-game mentality made them so great.


Add Newsy Lalonde.

I think you'll see Trottier and Yzerman finish in spots 14 & 15.

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Old
03-20-2006, 09:08 PM
  #14
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Bobby Clarke again. Add Joe Sakic.

It`s look like a 3-way race. Maybe Hockey Outsider can do a Clarke vs. Trottier vs. Yzerman analysis similar to the Mikita vs. Jagr one.

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Old
03-20-2006, 09:55 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
Trottier.
And please why isn't Ron Francis on this list?
Francis isn't good enough to be added. There are a lot of players that are better than Francis.

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Old
03-20-2006, 10:01 PM
  #16
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I can't believe how many votes Yzerman is getting. He is one of my favorite players but both Clarke and Trottier are much better than him.

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Old
03-20-2006, 10:28 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
I can't believe how many votes Yzerman is getting. He is one of my favorite players but both Clarke and Trottier are much better than him.
You just said in 25 words what I was about to say in 500.

=====

I’m really torn between Clarke and Trottier. I personally haven’t decided yet. But Yzerman is a weak pick at this point.

Goal-scoring: Yzerman is by far the best of the bunch. Yzerman never led the league in goals but he was top five three times and top ten six times (all in a row). Trottier was in the top five twice, top ten three times. Clarke never even finished 10th.

Playmaking: Trottier was the best. Led the league in assists in back-to-back years; 7 appearances in the top five and 8 in the top ten. Clarke was a close second. Led the league in assists in back-to-back years; 4 appearances in the top five and 8 appearances in the top ten. Yzerman is a distant third. Never finished higher than third and was in the top five 2 times, top ten 5 times.

Overall offense: Close call between Trottier and Clarke. Trottier has an Art Ross and was runner-up once. 3 top five appearances; 6 top ten appearances (all consecutive). Clarke was runner-up twice. 3 top five appearances; 7 top ten appearances (all consecutive). Yzerman is the worst of the bunch; he finished in the top five 3 times and in the top ten 6 times. Some point out that Yzerman was up against Gretzky and Lemieux. But, even if we pretend they never even existed (and made no such allowances for Trottier and Clarke, who were up against the likes of Orr, Esposito, Lafleur, Dionne and Gretzky too), Yzerman’s rank would barely change. He’d “win” the Art Ross in 1989 but would have no additional top five or top ten appearances.

Defense: Yzerman and Clarke each have a Selke. However, I’d argue that the only reason that Clarke doesn’t have 3 or 4 Selke’s is because the award wasn’t in existence during his prime. My knock against Yzerman is that he didn’t start playing defense until around a decade into his career. Conversely, Clarke and Trottier played defense at an elite level for their entire careers. People are quick to point out that when Yzerman started playing defense, the Wings won the Cup. Well, Trottier moved into a purely defensive role for the offense-oriented Pens, and was great defensively on the Islanders dynasty as well. Clarke played elite defense his entire career. I’d rank them Clarke (by far), Trottier, Yzerman.

Awards: Yzerman has 1 Conn Smythe, 1 Selke, and 2 all-star selections. He was finalist for the Hart twice. Clarke has 3 Hart’s (4-time finalist), 1 Selke and 4 all-star selections. Trottier has 1 Conn Smythe, 1 Hart (5-time finalist), 4 all-star selections. It’s debatable as to who’s better between Clarke and Trottier (what do you value more, 1 Hart + 1 Conn Smythe or 3 Harts?). But Yzerman is clearly the worst of the three.

Playoffs: Quite simply, these are three of the greatest playoff performers of all time. Trottier was a monster in the playoffs. He had a Conn Smythe, led the playoffs in scoring twice and was runner-up once. All this, plus great defense. Trottier’s 1980 playoff run was phenomenal—it truly approached a Gretzky-level of dominance. Did anything possible to help his team win, including moving into a defensive role for the Pens.

Clarke was slightly less dominant than Trottier. He never won a Conn Smyhe but had several strong performances. Was a top six scorer 4 times. Played outstanding defense.

Yzerman was a decent (but not spectacular) playoff performer the first decade of his career but exploded in the second half. Won one Conn Smthe, led the playoffs in scoring once, was runner-up once. Played great defense in the second half of his career. For playoffs, I’d rank them Trottier (by far), Yzerman, Clarke.

Overall: You can make a strong case for either Trottier or Clarke. But this is way too early for Yzerman.

====

Add Bill Cook.

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Old
03-20-2006, 10:35 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
I can't believe how many votes Yzerman is getting. He is one of my favorite players but both Clarke and Trottier are much better than him.
I'm not. That should have been evident after the last few rounds. Yzerman's been right up there. He's got a lot of fans, there are a lot of Detroit homers around here, and there are too many uninformed voters who won't support someone they didn't see. Most of Mikita's votes have swung over to Trotts and Clarke. (I'll be playing kingmaker with my vote).

Frankly, I'm surprised that Terrible Ted Lindsay isn't getting more support. The consensus No. 2 LW of all-time. Like Clarke and Trottier, he could beat you in so many different ways. Interesting to note that the top 12 forwards from THN's top 100 (voted for in 1996) have all been voted in. The highest-ranked forward not to be picked? Ted Lindsay, who was 13th on THN's list and 21st overall. (Our forward rankings are the same as THN's top 100 for Gretzky, Richard, Beliveau, Hull, Lafleur, Morenz and Bossy).

The two who have voted for Lindsay (murray and pnep) are pretty credible posters, though.

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Old
03-20-2006, 11:02 PM
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Bryan Trottier.

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Old
03-21-2006, 01:24 AM
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The legends of hockey tapes have Red Storey saying that when he was asked to name an all star team he said "give me five guys named Milt Schmidt, we'll put my grandmother in the net and we'll beat all of them." The Rocket also said that Schmidt was the best player he ever played against. Murray, did you ever get the pleasure of seeing him play live?

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Old
03-21-2006, 04:15 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
I'm not. That should have been evident after the last few rounds. Yzerman's been right up there. He's got a lot of fans, there are a lot of Detroit homers around here, and there are too many uninformed voters who won't support someone they didn't see. Most of Mikita's votes have swung over to Trotts and Clarke. (I'll be playing kingmaker with my vote).

Frankly, I'm surprised that Terrible Ted Lindsay isn't getting more support. The consensus No. 2 LW of all-time. Like Clarke and Trottier, he could beat you in so many different ways. Interesting to note that the top 12 forwards from THN's top 100 (voted for in 1996) have all been voted in. The highest-ranked forward not to be picked? Ted Lindsay, who was 13th on THN's list and 21st overall. (Our forward rankings are the same as THN's top 100 for Gretzky, Richard, Beliveau, Hull, Lafleur, Morenz and Bossy).

The two who have voted for Lindsay (murray and pnep) are pretty credible posters, though.
I'd vote for Lindsay too, but Trottier deserves more consideration IMO.

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Old
03-21-2006, 08:19 AM
  #22
pappyline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh
The legends of hockey tapes have Red Storey saying that when he was asked to name an all star team he said "give me five guys named Milt Schmidt, we'll put my grandmother in the net and we'll beat all of them." The Rocket also said that Schmidt was the best player he ever played against. Murray, did you ever get the pleasure of seeing him play live?
Never saw Schmidt. He reired to coach in 54-55. I never got into it in a big way until 56-57. Being endorsed by the Rocket & by Red Storey are pretty good references. He is way underated in this poll. When you compare his career with Clark & Trottier he should at worst be neck & neck with these guys. I would consider him very similiar to Trottier.

Both were excellent 2 way players. Both won an Art Ross & a Hart. Schmidt had 3 first team & one second all star selections. Trottier had 2 and 2.Trottier won 6 cups & Schmidt only two. (I don't really consider number of cups that relevant to individual ratings as cup wins reflect the team, not one player).

Trottier played 18 seasons wheras Milt played 15. Also, Schmidt missed 3 prime years serving overseas in WW 2. It is quite conceivable that he would have won more cups & awards if he hadn't missed those years.

It does not make sense that Trottier has "19" votes and Schmidt "zero".

I have some other opinions on the rankings so far:Hull should definitely be ahead of Beliveau & Richard and Morenz & Mikita should be 7 and 8.Esposito & Lafleur at best should be 9 & 10. Just my opinion on what I have seen and read.

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Old
03-21-2006, 08:37 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Clarke will finish much lower in this poll than he should ... call it the "likability" factor.
Clarke isn't likable at times. But I am looking at this as, if I had a team, who would I want on it. For me, I'd take Trottier or Clarke over anyone on that list. That's just me, though. To each his own.

Part of the problem, however, is that I saw Trottier and Clarke play. I know Schmidt, Apps, Lindsay, etc were great. But having never seen them play, you go with what you know. I know Trottier and Clarke were great. They did it all ... well ... sometimes with a mild insanity (or in Clarke's case, not so mild). Plus, they won.

Bottom line is, though, these polls will always be skewed somewhat by who has seen who, and more recent players will have a slight edge in that respect.


Last edited by Cake or Death: 03-21-2006 at 08:42 AM.
 
Old
03-21-2006, 09:24 AM
  #24
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I voted for Marcel Dionne... The funny part is, the players that deserves less votes (like, well, Bobby Clarke) have more votes than Dionne and the judgement calls (Lindsay amongst others have least votes.

Clarke will get votes because there are obviously more Philly guys here than L.A.'s.

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Old
03-21-2006, 09:29 AM
  #25
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Based on the somewhat incomplete record found here: http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=145895 , (having only a top 4 for the 47-48 season is the only one that might impact on this list)

Top 5 in Hart Trophy voting:
Syl Apps Sr. – 2nd 38-89; 2nd 39-40; 3rd 40-41; 2nd 41-42; T3rd 42-43
Milt Schmidt – 4th 39-40; 2nd 46-47; T5th 49-50; 1st 50-51; T4th 51-52
Ted Lindsay – T4th 48-49
Andy Bathgate – 3rd 56-57; 2nd 57-58; 1st 58-59; 5th 61-62
Henri Richard – 4th 57-58; 4th 66-67
Bobby Clarke – 1st 72-73; 4th 73-74; 1st 74-75; 1st 75-76; 2nd 76-77
Marcel Dionne – T5th 76-77; 3rd 78-79; 2nd 79-80; 3rd 80-81
Bryan Trottier – 2nd 77-78; 1st 78-79; 5th 80-81; 2nd 81-82; 3rd 83-84
Steve Yzerman – 4th 87-88; 3rd 88-89

Note that Apps and Schmidt missed time during WWII, and Joe Malone's career was ending just as the Hart was being introduced. (The authors of Ultimate Hockey selected him as a 3-time "Hart" winner in their pre-award award list.)

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