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Modano for the Hart

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Old
03-24-2006, 11:26 AM
  #26
Habsaku
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The stars have some amazing and smart players, thats all I can say. Modano IMO, is a top 5 center in the league, I love the way he plays the game and like Ott said, his only competitiion for the selke is his linemate.

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03-24-2006, 12:22 PM
  #27
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Why in the world would Modano win the Hart when he hasn't even been the Stars MVP.
Hello Zubov.

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Old
03-24-2006, 12:27 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starshockeyfan56
I think what Snott is trying to say is that scoring goals (offense) should have no influence with the way you play defensively. Obviously good defensive plays generate scoring, but in terms of looking strictly at defensive play, scoring should be ignored.
Except that scoring SH goals improves your PK because it makes the pointmen less likely to pinch and keep the pressure on the defense, which in turn makes it a "defensive skill". Normal offense I agree shouldn't count for defensive play, but SH offense is HUGE for a teams defensive play. Ottawa's PK dicounting SH goals is ranked 2nd. But our NET PK% is 91.5% because of our SH goals, which is exceptional. Some games our PK generates more chances than the oppositions PP, which is such an unbelievable momentum generator its not even funny. And since this is a discussion on the HART, SH are important.

Also, Dallas's record isn't as good as it appears due to all the SO pts (which come from Zubov, Jokinen and Turco, not Modano). If Dallas was 5-5 in SO instead of 10-0, their record, while still good, puts them well outside the top 5.

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Old
03-24-2006, 12:33 PM
  #29
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While we're at it, Henrik Sedin for the Hart. Also, Shawn Horcoff.

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Old
03-24-2006, 12:38 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil
Have to disagree with you here.

A player who can score short-handed is demonstrating that they are a two-way threat whenever they are on the ice, even at a numerical disadvantage.

Nothing ruins the flow of a team's powerplay more over the course of a game than giving up a shorthanded goal.
Pavel Bure used to score a lot of SHG's as well. One year he was +35 with 7 SHGs. I still don't classify him as a 2 way player, much less among the best.

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Old
03-24-2006, 12:42 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
Pavel Bure used to score a lot of SHG's as well. One year he was +35 with 7 SHGs. I still don't classify him as a 2 way player, much less among the best.
Like I said, Perreault is a faceoff specialist but not a two-way forward.

You can consider a skill to have a defensive orientation even if the rest of the player's play isn't.

If you look at Draper's Selke credentials on NHL.com, you get:
-First-time Selke finalist
-Posted a +22 rating and ranked eighth in the NHL in face-off winning percentage (56.9%)
-Tied for second in the NHL in shorthanded goals (five); Detroit's penalty-killers led the NHL (86.8%)

Obviously it's difficult to establish a player defensively through statistics but here are some of the things the NHL is citing.

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Old
03-24-2006, 12:49 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da_pope
Ya... Imagine his second year as a twenty year old
lol funny...

In his first year in the NHL and being only 20 years old...

better

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Old
03-24-2006, 12:57 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Egil
Also, Dallas's record isn't as good as it appears due to all the SO pts (which come from Zubov, Jokinen and Turco, not Modano). If Dallas was 5-5 in SO instead of 10-0, their record, while still good, puts them well outside the top 5.
Last time I checked, SO points count. They are every bit as good as their record indicates. Not their fault they are better than everyone else at it.

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Old
03-24-2006, 01:04 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott = Snott
Teemu Selanne and Paul Kariya used to be a big part of the Ducks PK for years (along with Rucchin as well). They scored a lot of shorthanded goals but are not two-way forwards by any stretch of the imagination (though no liabilities either)..

Shorthanded goals mean nothing to me.
Ummm Teemu Selanne didn't play much PK (no pun intended) at all during his first stint at Anaheim.

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Old
03-24-2006, 01:06 PM
  #35
Troy McClure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper
Ummm Teemu Selanne didn't play much PK (no pun intended) at all during his first stint at Anaheim.
No, but Pavel Bure played it all the time, and no one would ever mistake him for a two-way player.

Modano has no shot at the Hart. Voting is based on numbers and numbers alone.

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Old
03-24-2006, 01:10 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy McClure
No, but Pavel Bure played it all the time, and no one would ever mistake him for a two-way player.

Modano has no shot at the Hart. Voting is based on numbers and numbers alone.
He's not even the team's MVP!!!!!

This is how I see it.

1. Zubov
2. Lehtinen
3. Boucher
4. Modano

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Old
03-24-2006, 01:25 PM
  #37
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He's not even the best center in his own conference....I just dont see how Modano can have a legitimate Hart claim.

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Old
03-24-2006, 02:53 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8snake
He's not even the best center in his own conference....I just dont see how Modano can have a legitimate Hart claim.
I agree, I do think that he should be a Selke Finalist

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Old
03-24-2006, 03:16 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsaku
The stars have some amazing and smart players, thats all I can say. Modano IMO, is a top 5 center in the league, I love the way he plays the game and like Ott said, his only competitiion for the selke is his linemate.

Right, if you completely forget about Roddy B', and even Mike Fisher.

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Old
03-24-2006, 03:28 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott = Snott
Zetterberg doesn't faces the opposition's top units game in game out. Draper does. Modano is the Stars top offensive center and at the same time, he leads the Stars shutdown unit, both at regular strenght as on the PK. There's a reason Modano never quite utilisized his offensive potential, he's been facing every opposing team's All-Star for years, limiting his offensive free lance roll.

I still don't think Zetterberg is anywhere near the defensive forward Mike Modano is. Though he's arguably the 2nd best two-way center remaining in the West. But I'll just leave it at that, not going into another war with hundreds of Wing fans.
Um, hate to burst your bubble here but Draper has been on Datsyuk's wing for lengthy stretches this year and Zetterberg goes up against the other team's top scorers nightly since the halfway point. Zetterberg is leading Detroit forwards in ice time, is 2nd in points, 1st in goals and is used to shut down guys like Thornton. (The Thornton - Cheechoo line had 3 shots the entire game last night and no points)

There's no arguement here that Modono has been the stars' MVP and there aren't many, if any players in the league not named Lehtinen that I'd give the Selke to other than modono but you seriously downplay how good Zetterberg has been this season defensively while playing against the opposition's top unit on the PK and even strength.

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Old
03-24-2006, 03:30 PM
  #41
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Jagr is overshadowing everyone unfortunately, and every year Thornton gets snubbed after having a remarkable season, this year especially being traded and singlehandedly turning the Sharks season around. Big Joe has been at the top of the rankings several years now and i think it's time he gets some recognition.

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Old
03-24-2006, 03:45 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil
Like I said, Perreault is a faceoff specialist but not a two-way forward.

You can consider a skill to have a defensive orientation even if the rest of the player's play isn't.

If you look at Draper's Selke credentials on NHL.com, you get:
-First-time Selke finalist
-Posted a +22 rating and ranked eighth in the NHL in face-off winning percentage (56.9%)
-Tied for second in the NHL in shorthanded goals (five); Detroit's penalty-killers led the NHL (86.8%)

Obviously it's difficult to establish a player defensively through statistics but here are some of the things the NHL is citing.
But if you can have a high stat in something and still be a joke defensively, then the stat simply isn't all that telling when it comes to defense. All a lot of SHG's tells me is that he takes risks on the PK. It doesn't mean he's as bad as Pavel Bure defensively, but that doesn't tell me that he's better. If you're going to use a PK stat, you're better off telling the % of penalties he successfully kills. That he scores while doing it only tells us about his ability to score. In general, stats don't really tell much about defensive ability.

Note, I'm not questioning Alffy's 2way ability. He is definitely among the top. I just don't think the number of shorties he scores has much to do with it.

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Old
03-24-2006, 03:47 PM
  #43
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he wont win. Anti american bias

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Old
03-24-2006, 03:51 PM
  #44
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I think Modano is having a great year but has little chance at the Hart. He might finish 7th or 8th in the voting which is awesome in itself but he is not really a likely winner.

What I always find odd is how few Goalies ever win the Hart or get nominated. Since a starting Goalie who plays in 60-70 games is very often their team MVP and the award is supposed to go to the Most Valuable player Goalies should get nominated and win awards often. In my lifetime I think only Liut, Hasek (2) and Theodore have ever even been nominated.

Volkoun, Brodeur, Kiprusoff, Lundqwist and even Gerber, Miller (though missed a chunk of time) all should be really serious candidates for the Hart but I doubt any of them even are finalists. Kipper has the best chance.

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Old
03-24-2006, 04:07 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph
But if you can have a high stat in something and still be a joke defensively, then the stat simply isn't all that telling when it comes to defense. All a lot of SHG's tells me is that he takes risks on the PK. It doesn't mean he's as bad as Pavel Bure defensively, but that doesn't tell me that he's better. If you're going to use a PK stat, you're better off telling the % of penalties he successfully kills. That he scores while doing it only tells us about his ability to score. In general, stats don't really tell much about defensive ability.

Note, I'm not questioning Alffy's 2way ability. He is definitely among the top. I just don't think the number of shorties he scores has much to do with it.
Shorthanded goals don't mean nothing. Offence on the PK is huge in defending a PP. The Sens are tied for 3rd in fewest PPGA with 56. Plus they have scored 21 Shorthanded goals. They have been shorthanded 411 times (11th fewest in the NHL). So in 411 Shorthanded chances they have only 35 more goals scored against them more than they score. Being so incredibly dangerous a threat to score on the PK really messes up another teams PP. They actually start worrying about getting scored against and have problems being effective in setting things up.

I don't buy that being offensive on the PK or anytime isn't good defence. If you have the puck the other team doesn't and can't score. Alfredsson is awesome at this. On the PK he very often will get the puck and skate around with it killing time and maybe setting up a scoring opportunity. All of the 3 Sens PK units are threats to score and Vermette also has 5 Shorties but Alfie is the best at keeping possession of the puck on the PK. He can kill off 20 seconds just skating around. And he does this on the 5-3 as well and being the forward on a 5-3 PK is a defensive role.

The Sens play a possession game on the PK with all their units. They don't just blindly dump the puck down the ice. They control it and try to make things happen. This, for the Sens at least, is excellent defence. Instead of dumping the puck in and having the goalie pass it back to the offence and another offensive opportunity in 10 seconds or so the offensive team has to back check on the PP and far more time is killed and very often the Sens get a good chance to score or actually do score.

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Old
03-24-2006, 04:27 PM
  #46
Egil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos
Last time I checked, SO points count. They are every bit as good as their record indicates. Not their fault they are better than everyone else at it.
But Dallas's shoutout record has nothing to do with Modano. So when evaluating Modano for the Hart trophy, the SO pts Dallas gets should not be a factor. And sure they count in the standings, but I'd take a team with 95 pts and a 5-5 SO record over a team with 95 pts and a 10-0 SO record for the playoffs.

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Old
03-24-2006, 04:30 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy McClure
No, but Pavel Bure played it all the time, and no one would ever mistake him for a two-way player.

But the NYR PK with Bure was never rated #2 in the league without considering SHG, unlike Ottawa's. Not only does Ottawa score alot of SHG, we kill off alot of penalties as well.

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Old
03-24-2006, 04:32 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepper
Ummm Teemu Selanne didn't play much PK (no pun intended) at all during his first stint at Anaheim.
He saw around 50 seconds of penalty killing time a season during his Duck days. Not as much as I expected, but enough to say he's been a part of it..


Quote:
Originally Posted by 8snake
He's not even the best center in his own conference....I just dont see how Modano can have a legitimate Hart claim.
I really hope you mean Joe Thornton..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
He's not even the team's MVP!!!!!

This is how I see it.

1. Zubov
2. Lehtinen
3. Boucher
4. Modano
You won't find a single Stars fan who doesn't think Modano has been his team's MVP. I fail to see why it would be debatable to some, let alone have Mike as the 4th most valueble player.. I personally think it's as clear as it's ever been.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nas_Bert_Morr
While we're at it, Henrik Sedin for the Hart. Also, Shawn Horcoff.
That would be a funny comment if Sedin and Horcof would actually be in Modano's ballpark.. Right now you're only making a fool of yourself.

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Old
03-24-2006, 04:38 PM
  #49
Jimmi McJenkins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
Dallas may finish on top of it all and Mike has had a huge role in that ascent.

After he tied up the last game, sending it into overtime, I thought, why not him for the Hart? His defensive stats and performance are impressive, and he's been a clutch performer offensively, helping out when matters most.

What do you think? (darkhorse candidate... the one no one's talking about)


Wow that was funny. Mike Modano MV...

Ohhh, that was a good one.

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Old
03-24-2006, 04:42 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PigPen
Um, hate to burst your bubble here but Draper has been on Datsyuk's wing for lengthy stretches this year and Zetterberg goes up against the other team's top scorers nightly since the halfway point. Zetterberg is leading Detroit forwards in ice time, is 2nd in points, 1st in goals and is used to shut down guys like Thornton. (The Thornton - Cheechoo line had 3 shots the entire game last night and no points)

There's no arguement here that Modono has been the stars' MVP and there aren't many, if any players in the league not named Lehtinen that I'd give the Selke to other than modono but you seriously downplay how good Zetterberg has been this season defensively while playing against the opposition's top unit on the PK and even strength.

Couldn't let that one slide. People dont know Zetterberg's game if they don't know that he faces the oppositions top lines night in and night out. In fact, hes starting to do it almost as often as Draper. Much of Drapers duty has drifted to Zetterberg as Draper has had increasing ice time playing on Datsyuks wing.

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