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How to fix our center problem?

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Old
05-09-2017, 11:16 PM
  #26
The Great Pateryn
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i) Everybody gets fired, except for Waite
ii) Hire Brisebois, Ducharme, Bouchard...etc
iii) Outbid everyone for top end scouts
iv) Trade Price for Connor+1st
v) Draft Petterson and move up for Tolvanen
vi)Trade Weber for a top pick next year
vii) Tank HARD for 2 years
viii) Draft Dahlin and Svechnikov
ix) Draft Lafreniere
You now have a stacked team:
Svechnikov-Lafreniere-Galchenyuk
Connor-Petterson-Tolvanen

Dahlin-Juulsen
Sergachev-Petry

You then have PLENTY of assets in Pacioretty, Gallagher, Lekhonen, all those picks that your top end scouts picked...etc to either replace or improve the roster.
Yes I do know everything would have to go 100% right for all this to happen, and yes I know it is near impossible for all of this to happen in our favor. Am I dreaming? Absolutely, I KNOW it's easier said than done and most of these moves are completely unrealistic. However, this is the type of plan/approach I want us to go for.


Last edited by The Great Pateryn: 05-09-2017 at 11:41 PM.
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Old
05-09-2017, 11:18 PM
  #27
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Not sold on the whole tank for 3-5 years and hope for the best. As has been noted previously, Edmonton had to wait forever for McDavid. And they got sooooo lucky at the draft ballot.

Pitt tanked at the exact right time. Without Crosby, I'm not sure Malkin gives them the same results and vice versa. They were very lucky with both those drafts. Hawks were a combination of luck + a good GM, and I would even add a great coach (after Savard).

It basically means not caring about hockey for half a decade. I realize that this translates to my satisfaction with mediocrity, but I believe in getting there without having to become the Oilers or even Leafs. Probably not with the current brass though. They have to clean house at the top, and do it properly.

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Old
05-09-2017, 11:24 PM
  #28
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I don't think Bergevin believes there is a problem at centre.

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Old
05-09-2017, 11:26 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
I don't think Bergevin believes there is a problem at centre.
My belief is that he didn't expect Plekanec to regress this bad(which is far, none of us did) but he's so passive on improving that spot.

Even if Plekanec was still okay and Galchenyuk was slowly improving, we're not close to having a good 1-2 punch.

We need talent.

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Old
05-09-2017, 11:30 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
Not sold on the whole tank for 3-5 years and hope for the best. As has been noted previously, Edmonton had to wait forever for McDavid. And they got sooooo lucky at the draft ballot.

Pitt tanked at the exact right time. Without Crosby, I'm not sure Malkin gives them the same results and vice versa. They were very lucky with both those drafts. Hawks were a combination of luck + a good GM, and I would even add a great coach (after Savard).

It basically means not caring about hockey for half a decade. I realize that this translates to my satisfaction with mediocrity, but I believe in getting there without having to become the Oilers or even Leafs. Probably not with the current brass though. They have to clean house at the top, and do it properly.
If Habs tank on purpose with a huge overhaul I find a new hobby for about 5 years and then check in.

We look at the success stories but teams like Buffalo had top scouting guys at the helm in Murray and got Eichel...no difference. They're at the bottom.

NYI even with Tavares(1st overall with exceptional status resume from CHL) and still struggling.

Florida with Barkov, Huberdeau, Ekblad...still struggling.

We're better off because of our spending power but people need to realize it won't be easy.

Not only is a 1st overall pick harder to get but the value of a non-playoff 1st has increased dramatically. In the past only 1 lottery winner and can move up 4 spots. Now...3 lottery winners and can move up top 3. Flyers won that. Teams will hold onto these picks until after lottery now.

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Old
05-09-2017, 11:32 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SpezNc View Post
It's not a secret that our main weakness is our center line?

Apart front UFA (thin crop), we are our options?

I think it can be interesting to track a list of potential available center and also a list of potential asset we could trade.

NOT A TRADE PROPOSAL but simply to build a list we can refer in order to see our possibilities.

We need to be realistic in the sense that most number 1 center are not available or have a non trade list. Tavares is probably not moving!

Therefore no miracle can happens!

Carey Price, Max Pac, Weber and Sergachev are probably not moving

I will start :

Center available or center the opposing team may be willing to trade:

1-Matt Duchene : Colorado : on trade market
2-Ryan Nugent-Hopkins : Edmonton : with McDavid and Draisaitl, RHN is expensive to play on the third line!
3-Sean Couturier : Philly : Giroux is their #1 and they also have Schenn and maybe Konecky that can play center.
4- Sam Reinhardt : Buffalo : Eichel is #1. Ennis, O'reilly can play center.
5-Sam Bennett : Sean Monahan is #1 and Backlund is #2. But Calgary will not trade him for cheap.

UFA: Thin crop. Hanzal and Sharp.

Asset to trade with value :
Alex Galchenyuk (regular top 6)
Brendan Gallagher (regular top 6)
Arturri Lehkonen (regular top 6)
Micheal McArron (minor)
Nikita Scherbak (minor)
Nathan Beaulieu (top 5-6-7 dmen) not a great value
Noah juulsen (junior )
Victor Mete. (Junior)
Z Fucale (minor - low value but can sweetened a deal)
1st round draft pick 2017
1st round 2018
2 second 2017
3 second 2018

Pleky = no value
Shaw = not moving
Petry = not moving
Danault = worth more as a habs
#1 piece to move for a #1 center is Pacioretty. None of those guys will get you a true #1. We can replace his goals with wingers but we need to get that #1 C piece more importantly.

But they won't do it and I'm honestly convinced we won't win anything with this group and we can forget about a Cup for the next 10-15 years. We just don't do things the right way and only by viewing the Leafs mediocre rise to greatness will they realize the right way to doing things.

We have management that isn't bold enough to make the proper bold moves to improve this team.

We have management that has no foresight. The whole league is going to speed and skill and we thought it would be better to trade our top offensive D man for a defensive D man. While it's a need it's nowhere near "we're better right now" territory. If you can't score you can't win and we filled one hole to open another. Plus we traded him for a coach who didn't even last another full season to mould the team to fit what he needed. No foresight.

We don't have strength down the middle. We could have easily offered two years for Shipachyov at $4.5m but Bergevin wouldn't offer the same length of contract. After our desperation at this position you'd think that at that price you'd just seal the deal to fix it.

Our development is among the worst in the league. We can't supplement high salary skilled players with cheap high-impact prospects.

We don't have the right people in the right roles. Why is Lefevbre coaching the AHL team? We should have the best young French coach to groom him for being our next coach like we did with Boucher before.

We have a sense of entitlement that we're the Montreal Canadiens through ownership and management. We can't allow kids to be kids and to teach them the right way. We have to trade them away while guys like Kane stay on and flourish in Chicago. But no we're Montreal, we have standards.

We hope every year things will be different. They won't and our guys will get old and nothing will improve. 10-15 years. Book it.


Last edited by Ginu: 05-10-2017 at 10:19 AM.
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Old
05-10-2017, 12:03 AM
  #32
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Trade everyone and rebuild, or trade all our picks and best prospects for 1B/2 types and hope for the best (then, naturally, tank and rebuild anyways).

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Old
05-10-2017, 12:09 AM
  #33
Jabba11
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1. Fire Bergevin
2. Rehire Bergevin
3. Fire him again
4. Find a new GM

Then, start building a philosophy. Ask for your HC what he wants in a player, more especially in a 1st line center.

Try to trade for Tavares.
Leave Duchene in Colorado.
Trade everybody except Lehkonen.
Price has value. Evaluate that value.
Galchenyuk on the trading block.
Find a trading partner that thinks like GM George McPhee or just call McPhee himself.

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Old
05-10-2017, 12:52 AM
  #34
NobleSix
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Trade Pacioretty.

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Old
05-10-2017, 01:08 AM
  #35
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Tanking right now, given the Habs build and valuable players (Price, Weber, Patches, Galchenyuk, Gallagher etc) would be unheard of in the history of the NHL. We'd have to liquidate a whole lot of players, in the hope of getting similar players down the road.

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Old
05-10-2017, 05:07 AM
  #36
Rapala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
My belief is that he didn't expect Plekanec to regress this bad(which is far, none of us did) but he's so passive on improving that spot.

Even if Plekanec was still okay and Galchenyuk was slowly improving, we're not close to having a good 1-2 punch.

We need talent.
This all goes back to the 2014 season any half assed honest analysis post season debrief would have uncovered that fact. Heck most folks knew this when Bergevin took the reins.
And yet many still defend him after 5 years of empty promises.

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Old
05-10-2017, 05:13 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Well, you know...he said 'luck'.

And besides, do you know the next 'one'?

I sure as **** don't.
Rasmus Dahlin ('18) is lookin pretty damn good

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Old
05-10-2017, 05:18 AM
  #38
NotProkofievian
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Well, you know...he said 'luck'.

And besides, do you know the next 'one'?

I sure as **** don't.
There are some really great prospects coming up. Even if we don't get 1/2 overall, in next year's draft there's 5 or 6 exceptional names I can think of. Not Matthews/McDavid level, but better than anything we have right now.

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Old
05-10-2017, 06:19 AM
  #39
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You can't.

You can't draft top centers.
You can't sign them.
You can't develop them
Nobody trades them.

So keep paying me and my friends/family millions of dollars to not do my job.

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Old
05-10-2017, 07:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by NobleSix View Post
Trade Pacioretty.
This one I agree with. I love Patch (own his Jersey) but these are the reasons why I trade Patch...

1) 2 years away from a massive increase in pay when he will be 31. The next contract scares me. Trade him now so we can get someone younger and under team control

2) Can't score in big games. If we can acquire a center who can score 20 goals +/- each season, I make the deal in the heart beat!

3) Move Galchenyuk to the Left side to replace him. Galchenyuk and Lehkonen are solid young left wingers.

4) We need a Canadian Captain to lead this team. Weber is the next captain.

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Old
05-10-2017, 07:55 AM
  #41
Belial
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Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
Look at where we are??? We are trending down.
This whole tanking discussion is just nonsense.

Can you objectively explain how is this team trending down?

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Old
05-10-2017, 08:09 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
This whole tanking discussion is just nonsense.

Can you objectively explain how is this team trending down?
We don't need to tank I agree.

However it's easy to see this team is not trending up either. We are getting older, the prospect pool is nothing great, no real solid player outside of Sergachev coming up while teams like Tampa, Bruins, Flyers, Leafs are all going in the right direction. I give us 2 more years( that's if Price signs) after that were going downhill and pretty fast

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05-10-2017, 08:12 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
We don't need to tank I agree.

However it's easy to see this team is not trending up either. We are getting older, the prospect pool is nothing great, no real solid player outside of Sergachev coming up while teams like Tampa, Bruins, Flyers, Leafs are all going in the right direction. I give us 2 more years( that's if Price signs) after that were going downhill and pretty fast
This I agree with. No need to tank and it doesn't guarentee were a better team after we rebuild vs what we are today. Also, the urgency to improve the team we have today is getting higher though!

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05-10-2017, 08:13 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by VirginiaMtlExpat View Post
Find some talented unloved center, with his stock at a low point, similar to how the Sens got Turris. And avoid making the same mistake selling low with Galchenyuk. Ryan Strome came to mind last winter, but there could be others.

Alternately, try to make cap space (depending on whom Vegas picks, e.g. Emelin) and make an offer to a team up against the cap, like the Canes did when they got Teravainen from the Hawks.

Edit: this does not necessarily get you a star, but perhaps a serviceable #2.
I agree with this, we would have to sell the farm to get Duchene or similar. Moving Sergachev is a huge step in the wrong direction imo.

I think the biggest question is: What is Galchenyuk.....

IF he is a winger, I really think we need to strongly consider moving Max. Max has the most value for a return, moving Galchenyuk when he hasn't peaked is a mistake.

I agree R. Strome would be a good target.......add CDH and something else and I'm listening.....

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Old
05-10-2017, 08:20 AM
  #45
Habs 4 Life
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
This I agree with. No need to tank and it doesn't guarentee were a better team after we rebuild vs what we are today. Also, the urgency to improve the team we have today is getting higher though!
Definitely, because we lack top end prospects coming into the mix and help!!!!!

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05-10-2017, 08:44 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
We don't need to tank I agree.

However it's easy to see this team is not trending up either. We are getting older, the prospect pool is nothing great, no real solid player outside of Sergachev coming up while teams like Tampa, Bruins, Flyers, Leafs are all going in the right direction. I give us 2 more years( that's if Price signs) after that were going downhill and pretty fast
Man you have to stop already with all this prospect pool bs.

I don't want to be rude but you're uninformed or you didn't do your homework and just talk out of your derriere.

Boston got Pastrnak and Carlo since 2012 and there's nothing else there!

Flyers got Ghost, Provorov, and Konecny

Tampa got Paquette, Drouin, and Point

Not to mention that all those teams had better draft positions than we did.

And Leafs?Seriously? You want to compare our draft with a team that drafted in the top 5 three times in the last 5 years?

Leafs are actually terrible when it comes to draft and development!

Out of their top 5 picks and Nylander drafted 8th overall they have Conor freaking Brown and nothing else!!!

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Old
05-10-2017, 08:50 AM
  #47
Habs Icing
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Originally Posted by SpezNc View Post
It's not a secret that our main weakness is our center line?

Apart front UFA (thin crop), we are our options?

I think it can be interesting to track a list of potential available center and also a list of potential asset we could trade.

NOT A TRADE PROPOSAL but simply to build a list we can refer in order to see our possibilities.

We need to be realistic in the sense that most number 1 center are not available or have a non trade list. Tavares is probably not moving!

Therefore no miracle can happens!

Carey Price, Max Pac, Weber and Sergachev are probably not moving

I will start :

Center available or center the opposing team may be willing to trade:

1-Matt Duchene : Colorado : on trade market
2-Ryan Nugent-Hopkins : Edmonton : with McDavid and Draisaitl, RHN is expensive to play on the third line!
3-Sean Couturier : Philly : Giroux is their #1 and they also have Schenn and maybe Konecky that can play center.
4- Sam Reinhardt : Buffalo : Eichel is #1. Ennis, O'reilly can play center.
5-Sam Bennett : Sean Monahan is #1 and Backlund is #2. But Calgary will not trade him for cheap.

UFA: Thin crop. Hanzal and Sharp.
Hopkins, Reinhart & Bennett are players that I would target and that we have a chance of landing. There's also Minnesota but I don't know what they would need.

For Reinhart & Bennett, Patches would be a good match. For Hopkins I would say the OIlers want defence but who knows.

I would use Patches as the trade bait. He's worth more in a trade than on the team. I wouldn't trade Chucky. Even if he doesn't become the saviour center we need, he'll be an excellent winger.

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05-10-2017, 08:50 AM
  #48
LaP
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
I don't think Bergevin believes there is a problem at centre.
THis is my impression too

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Old
05-10-2017, 09:12 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
I don't think Bergevin believes there is a problem at centre.
He thinks we lack 3rd and 4th line scoring...

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Old
05-10-2017, 09:17 AM
  #50
Brainiac
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Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
Then what is he waiting for?
As other have said, it's called luck. And you can't make it happen by sheer will.

The fact that we don't have a generational talent playing center for us has little to do with wathever Bergevin has done or not.

That being said, I agree with those saying the center position and offense in general doesn't seem to be a priority for him. But even if it was, it doesn't mean McDavid would be playing for us.

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