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Marc Bergevin - Le Chateau Purple Pants Edition (Mod warning post #514)

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Old
05-12-2017, 09:22 AM
  #101
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes, I agree, as of May 12th, there is no need to go full rebuild. My opinion stems mostly from the fact I don't think Radulov is going to renew here, which leaves us in an even worse shape.
If Radulov leaves, we're screwed.

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Old
05-12-2017, 09:36 AM
  #102
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I asked you how should we evaluate a team?

Because you're telling me the regular season is not an indication of anything.
I did not say that. Try to understand instead of looking to argue. My objective is not to come on HF and win an argument with you.
I said repeating that the Habs finished with 100+pts is a terrible way to analyze anything. I also said it is the critical analysis you expect from a 10yo. Do you not agree with this?
That line of thinking means that whoever finished 1st is the best team in the NHL, the 2nd is the 2nd best, the 3rd the 3rd best, etc. That is a rather foolish observation because as you know, the better team doesn't always win, so the better team can also finish lower in the standinds, which means a lower team, ie. us, can finish higher.

You want to evaluate then start by looking at our roster, then analyze our actual games, and look at our holes. There is no way you look at all this and conclude ''hey man! We're in pretty good shape!''. No way.

You and I want the same, we're on the same team man. We are both die hard habs fan and want the team to freaking win. I get up at 7am to watch the freaking Habs play here in Hong Kong. I would fly from here back to Montreal for the Finals if they made it through. That's how much of a ****ing fan I am. So when I'm arguing that our team has big holes, that they're in bad shape and we need a lot of work, I'm not saying this with a big ****ing smile on my face. It annoys the **** out of me, but it's the reality man. The team is just not in good shape right now, it's not looking good at all.

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Old
05-12-2017, 09:38 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
...
It's frightening to think that next season, MB will need to find 3 top6 players, with one of them possibly being Radulov. If this team is really giving up on Galchenyuk being center, it's a nightmare to think that MB now needs to find two top6 centers, when in 5 years he clamored about how difficult it was to find one. Right now this is how I see the Habs roster:

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - top3/6 RW (Radulov if he signs)
Top6 LW - Top6 C - Gallagher
Lehkonen - Danault - Shaw
Byron - Mitchell - McCarron

Other names:
De La Rose, Jacob
Scherbak, Nikita
McCarron, Michael
Carr, Daniel
Audette, Daniel
Hudon, Charles

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Old
05-12-2017, 09:42 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If Radulov leaves, we're screwed.
I'm sure Marc Bergevin has a contingency plan in place. He knows what he's doing.

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Old
05-12-2017, 09:52 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If Radulov leaves, we're screwed.
I think we're screwed with Bergevin. Radu or no Radu. The last thing I want is for Bergevin to re-sign Radulov and leave it at that.
I do not want to make the POs again only to exit early and that is what will happen if we go in with the status quo. It's completely pointless and only delays the inevitable while possibly damaging some of our movable assets' values.

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:01 AM
  #106
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I think we're screwed with Bergevin. Radu or no Radu. The last thing I want is for Bergevin to re-sign Radulov and leave it at that.
I do not want to make the POs again only to exit early and that is what will happen if we go in with the status quo. It's completely pointless and only delays the inevitable while possibly damaging some of our movable assets' values.
On that point you could very well be right. I think he's done more damage to us than anything.

As is though this core is salvagable. We are still in a position where we can add to it and win something. But drastic moves have to be made. We can't see the same passive crap we've seen in the past. We MUST make significant improvements this year to the forward group or we'll have wasted a great core.

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:08 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
On that point you could very well be right. I think he's done more damage to us than anything.

As is though this core is salvagable. We are still in a position where we can add to it and win something. But drastic moves have to be made. We can't see the same passive crap we've seen in the past. We MUST make significant improvements this year to the forward group or we'll have wasted a great core.
This team would be a lot stronger if they did not have the weakest development in the NHL. Galchenyuk and Lehkonen are the only young players who contributed in the playoffs, and that's pitiful. Bergevin may be able to find a palliative like Giroux or Zetterberg this summer, but it's a short-term solution at best.

Price's prime years are being squandered, and they will continue to be without improved development.

It's actually a really tough situation medium-term. Toronto, Buffalo, and possibly Tampa Bay are on the upswing. Detroit will soon be undergoing a credible rebuild. Philadelphia and New Jersey may undergo credible rebuilds as well. The next few year's worth of elite player will largely end up in this conference.

Best case scenario: Plekanec gone, salary cap goes up, Giroux added to the team

Pacioretty-Giroux-Gallagher
Lehkonen-Galchenyuk-Radulov
Shaw-Danault-Hudon
Byron-DeLaRose-McCarron

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:20 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
8 of 31 teams won the President's trophy and Stanley Cup.

The last four Atlantic division winners were Boston, Montreal, Florida, and Montreal.

Between 94 and 2013, only one Northeast division winner won the Stanley Cup (Boston).

Between 82 and 93 only two Adams division winners won the Cup (Montreal)

Getting the picture yet?
Why are you telling me about the President trophy? Where did I mention that winning the president trophy or the division means you will win the cup?

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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
You can evaluate all you want with regular season success. The playoffs are where you prove your worth.

The regular season is an appetizer, the playoffs are the main course.

I have no clue if that analogy came out wrong jaffy, but in no way are the playoffs an after thought. In no way is the Stanley Cup something players sit at the table and be like "That was a good season, I had quite enough of it, playoffs? Let me think... What's in it for me to be in the playoffs? The Stanley Cup, I heard it was good, sure why not."

Playoffs are not dessert.
I never said the contrary. My whole point was that this team is not terrible and the sky is not falling.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I did not say that. Try to understand instead of looking to argue. My objective is not to come on HF and win an argument with you.
I said repeating that the Habs finished with 100+pts is a terrible way to analyze anything. I also said it is the critical analysis you expect from a 10yo. Do you not agree with this?
That line of thinking means that whoever finished 1st is the best team in the NHL, the 2nd is the 2nd best, the 3rd the 3rd best, etc. That is a rather foolish observation because as you know, the better team doesn't always win, so the better team can also finish lower in the standinds, which means a lower team, ie. us, can finish higher.

You want to evaluate then start by looking at our roster, then analyze our actual games, and look at our holes. There is no way you look at all this and conclude ''hey man! We're in pretty good shape!''. No way.

You and I want the same, we're on the same team man. We are both die hard habs fan and want the team to freaking win. I get up at 7am to watch the freaking Habs play here in Hong Kong. I would fly from here back to Montreal for the Finals if they made it through. That's how much of a ****ing fan I am. So when I'm arguing that our team has big holes, that they're in bad shape and we need a lot of work, I'm not saying this with a big ****ing smile on my face. It annoys the **** out of me, but it's the reality man. The team is just not in good shape right now, it's not looking good at all.
Yes you did, but it's not the point.

I'm not looking to argue... We just don't share the same opinion on this team, therefore, we talk about it.

I never said if you finish first you're the best and so on, it's irrelevant. What's not irrelevant though it's that this team managed to finish at the top of the league with a ton of holes in their roster according to you.

Can you explain to me how did this team managed to get 100+ points if you think we are terrible and have glaring holes all over our roster?

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:28 AM
  #109
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I don't think the situation is as dire as most are claiming. Obviously, MB can't sit on his hands

He has to re-sign Rads, trade for a top 6 center and replace Patches. I don't want to see this player on the team anymore.

XXX XXX Radulov
Lehkonen Galchenyuk Gally
Byron Danualt Shaw
Martinsen McCarron Mitchell

The off season hasn't started well with MB not signing Shipachev. Hopefully that's because they believe he isn't NHL material.

I'll wait till the start of the season.

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:29 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
Can you explain to me how did this team managed to get 100+ points if you think we are terrible and have glaring holes all over our roster?
It's been pointed out many times that Pacioretty's significant production is substantially higher against bad teams.

I would not be surprised if this was true of other players on the team.

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:30 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
I never said the contrary. My whole point was that this team is not terrible and the sky is not falling.
This team is terrible. 3 playoff series in 3 years and if you exclude games against Andrew Hammond this is what you get from Canadiens playoff hockey:

1 in 10 games the Habs scored 3 or more goals.
18 goals in those 10 games. 1.8 g/games

2 in 6 games the Habs scored 3 or more goals.
11 goals in those 6 games. 1.8 g/games

This is terrible no matter how you want to spin it.

EDIT: It's fine if you do not agree the team is terrible, but the results are without a doubt:

T.E.R.R.I.B.L.E


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Old
05-12-2017, 10:30 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I'm sure Marc Bergevin has a contingency plan in place. He knows what he's doing.
Do some dumpster diving....?

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:37 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
This team is terrible. 3 playoff series in 3 years and if you exclude games against Andrew Hammond this is what you get from Canadiens playoff hockey:

1 in 10 games the Habs scored 3 or more goals.
18 goals in those 10 games. 1.8 g/games

2 in 6 games the Habs scored 3 or more goals.
11 goals in those 6 games. 1.8 g/games

This is terrible no matter how you want to spin it.

EDIT: It's fine if you do not agree the team is terrible, but the results are without a doubt:

T.E.R.R.I.B.L.E
Such an insane overreaction. A terrible team doesn't make the playoffs. A terrible team doesn't win a division. We're not terrible, we just aren't the best. We know our weaknesses, we can just hope that Bergevin also know what the real weaknesses are. If not, we might become terrible in the next couple of years.

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:38 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It's been pointed out many times that Pacioretty's significant production is substantially higher against bad teams.

I would not be surprised if this was true of other players on the team.
It's probably true for most players though. Having a majority of your points against bad teams seems like it would be pretty normal across the NHL.

I would also imagine like SH% it can vary quite a bit from one season to another without really meaning much.

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:39 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by gunnerdom View Post
Such an insane overreaction. A terrible team doesn't make the playoffs. A terrible team doesn't win a division. We're not terrible, we just aren't the best. We know our weaknesses, we can just hope that Bergevin also know what the real weaknesses are. If not, we might become terrible in the next couple of years.
When you have a GM who talks about "Going all in" and this is the result. It's the same result as 2 seasons ago... It's terrible if you don't progress. It's terrible if you plan to do the impossible (acquire a top line C).

Call it whatever you want, bottom line this team is unacceptable.

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05-12-2017, 10:40 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
It's probably true for most players though. Having a majority of your points against bad teams seems like it would be pretty normal across the NHL.

I would also imagine like SH% it can vary quite a bit from one season to another without really meaning much.
Pacioretty has a steeper drop.

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:41 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Pacioretty has a steeper drop.
Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen any other players analyzed, nor have I seen multiple season being analyzed.

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:41 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I'm sure Marc Bergevin has a contingency plan in place. He knows what he's doing.
not sure he can spell 'contingency ', I hope he has plan 'b'

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05-12-2017, 10:44 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If Radulov leaves, we're screwed.
what if Radulov leaves and Oshie arrives? (put aside the likelyhood of EITHER scenario happening for a second)...

are we still screwed?

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05-12-2017, 10:46 AM
  #120
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what if Radulov leaves and Oshie arrives? (put aside the likelyhood of EITHER scenario happening for a second)...

are we still screwed?
If we don't add to Radulov, yes the Habs are screwed. Paul Byron in your top6, or Shaw... We can't do "or" we must do "and".

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05-12-2017, 10:46 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen any other players analyzed, nor have I seen multiple season being analyzed.
His production drops by a factor of 2 or so.

In the playoffs, he drops by 30%, Gallagher only drops by 10%, I think Subban and Eller might actually have increased production. Lehkonen's increases so far and apparently he rocked in the SEL playoffs.

We also know that Pacioretty can't produce in international play.

But as a curiosity, Radulov produces 0.67 ppg in the regular season over his career. In the playoffs he produces 0.88 ppg, so his production increases by 31%.

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05-12-2017, 10:47 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
It's been pointed out many times that Pacioretty's significant production is substantially higher against bad teams.

I would not be surprised if this was true of other players on the team.
I will tell you even more, I would not be surprised if this was true for all the players in the league! It's just a logical conclusion that players will score more against weaker teams.

How is this explaining anything? Pacioretty producing against weak teams is the reason this team got 100+ points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
This team is terrible. 3 playoff series in 3 years and if you exclude games against Andrew Hammond this is what you get from Canadiens playoff hockey:

1 in 10 games the Habs scored 3 or more goals.
18 goals in those 10 games. 1.8 g/games

2 in 6 games the Habs scored 3 or more goals.
11 goals in those 6 games. 1.8 g/games

This is terrible no matter how you want to spin it.

T.E.R.R.I.B.L.E
We need scoring help, it's obvious. At center particularly. This doesn't mean we should tear the team apart and rebuild.

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Old
05-12-2017, 10:49 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
We need scoring help, it's obvious. At center particularly. This doesn't mean we should tear the team apart and rebuild.
We are on the cusp of needing to rebuild. However I agree, do not rebuild under MB.

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05-12-2017, 10:55 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
His production drops by a factor of 2 or so.

In the playoffs, he drops by 30%, Gallagher only drops by 10%, I think Subban and Eller might actually have increased production. Lehkonen's increases so far and apparently he rocked in the SEL playoffs.

We also know that Pacioretty can't produce in international play.

But as a curiosity, Radulov produces 0.67 ppg in the regular season over his career. In the playoffs he produces 0.88 ppg, so his production increases by 31%.
You seem to be changing the narrative, you claimed he got most of his points against weak teams during the regular season. I said that's normal, and now you are talking about regular season vs playoffs. That's two seperate things.

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05-12-2017, 10:56 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
what if Radulov leaves and Oshie arrives? (put aside the likelyhood of EITHER scenario happening for a second)...

are we still screwed?
Radulov>>>>>>>>>> Oshie AINEC!

Even if by looking at points you would think there's not much difference but Oshie is your typical triggerman winger a la Pacioretty. Radulov is so much more...

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