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Trade Proposal - Central Edition

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05-13-2017, 05:17 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
We couldn't get a Subban for him, so he'll always be perceived as having little value.

Realistically, I think Weber could be traded for a pair of late 1st rounders from an emerging contender with cap space, is there such a thing?

For example, if the salary cap went up substantially, teams like Edmonton, Pittsburgh, and Washington might be interested in Weber.
He's an established #1 with a ton of pedigree. A pair of late 1st? C'mon...

He may not be worth a Subban, but we could still get some very good pieces for him if trading him ever became an option.

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05-13-2017, 06:02 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
He's an established #1 with a ton of pedigree. A pair of late 1st? C'mon...

He may not be worth a Subban, but we could still get some very good pieces for him if trading him ever became an option.
Look at how much Chris Pronger was worth.

Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, and a 1st, and another 1st that was conditional. It's the most substantial trade of the salary cap era.

For Shea Weber, take Chris Pronger's trade value and divide by two.

There is no chance that Weber's trade value goes near that of Pronger.

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05-13-2017, 06:04 PM
  #103
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Can you explain what GAR is?

Also, the image is low resolution so I have trouble interpreting it. Any surprises in it? Who does well and who doesn't?

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Old
05-13-2017, 06:06 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
That was when Lefebvre and Therrien had spent less time with De La Rose.

In 2016 and 2017, he was poor. Scoring against, shots against, were high.

Behindthenet.ca has him behind most of the Habs forwards in 2016 for Corsi Rel QoC -- he was sheltered too. However, he didn't need sheltering in 2015, so he regressed defensively.
Yep this is what I was looking at. DLR is another one of those player that because they make the "safe" play they are assumed to be great defensively.

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05-13-2017, 06:09 PM
  #105
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Yep this is what I was looking at. DLR is another one of those player that because they make the "safe" play they are assumed to be great defensively.
I trust the multitude of experts who have argued with great conviction that DLR has tremendous potential as a defensive forward. I'm assuming that his subpar play up to now is simply due to poor development from the Therrien-Lefebvre administration, who have never developed the defensive game of a single forward.

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05-13-2017, 06:13 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I trust the multitude of experts who have argued with great conviction that DLR has tremendous potential as a defensive forward. I'm assuming that his subpar play up to now is simply due to poor development from the Therrien-Lefebvre administration, who have never developed the defensive game of a single forward.
They haven't really developed anything at all. Not offense, not defence yet Sly is still here. It is incredible.

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05-13-2017, 06:13 PM
  #107
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Its all good in Habsland you got that right. 25 years without a Stanley cup and definitely hitting the 30 years mark. Markov as 4 to 5 playoffs games in him at best per year, wow!

Why would Plekanec head to Vegas?

Sergachev isnt replacing Markov, nobody is replacing Markov.

Price will probably want to win a cup , so he wont resign in Montréal.

Pacioretty is probably heading to the States as he cant stand the pressure of playing here.

Man! Things do look brighter than ever in Habsland!!!
It's really not a question of glass half full or half empty with you. The glass has no bottom and is always empty. Depression central!

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Old
05-13-2017, 06:17 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Look at how much Chris Pronger was worth.

Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, and a 1st, and another 1st that was conditional. It's the most substantial trade of the salary cap era.

For Shea Weber, take Chris Pronger's trade value and divide by two.

There is no chance that Weber's trade value goes near that of Pronger.
The most substantial trade of the cap era was Subban for Weber...

Lupul was also an established top 6 forward at the time of that trade, and Sbisa was a former 1st round pick.

That's a lot more value than two late 1st round picks.

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Old
05-13-2017, 06:20 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
The most substantial trade of the cap era was Subban for Weber...

Lupul was also an established top 6 forward at the time of that trade, and Sbisa was a former 1st round pick.

That's a lot more value than two late 1st round picks.
Anaheim Ducks traded Chris Pronger and Ryan Dingle to the Philadelphia Flyers for Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, a 1st round selection in 2009, a 1st round selection in 2010 and a conditional round selection in 2010 or 2011.

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Old
05-13-2017, 06:21 PM
  #110
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3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Lupul was also an established top 6 forward at the time of that trade, and Sbisa was a former 1st round pick.

That's a lot more value than two late 1st round picks.
I said "divide by two", as Pronger was much better than Weber is.

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05-13-2017, 06:21 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Can you explain what GAR is?

Also, the image is low resolution so I have trouble interpreting it. Any surprises in it? Who does well and who doesn't?
It stands for Goals Above Replacement, basically how much more the player contributes than a random AHL veteran callup like say, Mike Blunden back in the day in terms of his overall game.

I'm... skeptical the data's good enough in hockey for it to be of much use for fine grain analysis. In baseball WAR (Wins Above Replacement) is pretty damn good for pitching and batting but on defense there are sampling issues with the publicly available data. There's a point in the future where I can see something like GAR in hockey getting as good as WAR is in baseball, but not right now.

It's not a bad starting point, but you definitely need to dig deeper to come to any meaningful conclusions.

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Old
05-13-2017, 06:22 PM
  #112
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- delete -

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05-13-2017, 06:24 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
1)

2)

Pronger >~ Subban
Lupul, Sbisa, two 1st rounders > Weber
Pronger, at the time of his trade from the Ducks, was fairly comparable to Weber. He was also older.

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Old
05-13-2017, 06:29 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Pronger, at the time of his trade from the Ducks, was fairly comparable to Weber. He was also older.
No, Pronger was a generational talent on D who took both Edmonton and Anaheim to the cup finals, and later Philadelphia. He was so good that when he had his concussion Philly went from stanley cup finalist to lottery/bubble team. He dominated at both ends of the ice and played with a mean streak.

Pronger's contemporary comparables are Karlsson, Hedman, Subban, and Doughty. Not Weber.

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05-13-2017, 06:35 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No, Pronger was a generational talent on D who took both Edmonton and Anaheim to the cup finals, and later Philadelphia. He was so good that when he had his concussion Philly went from stanley cup finalist to lottery/bubble team. He dominated at both ends of the ice and played with a mean streak.

Pronger's contemporary comparables are Karlsson, Hedman, Subban, and Doughty. Not Weber.
Pronger was 33 and coming off a 11 goals 48 points season on a great offensive team.

Weber is 31 and coming off a 17 goals 42 points season in 4 fewer games on an offensively inept team.

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05-13-2017, 06:38 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Nope, Weber's value is limited to contract, and will decline rapidly moving forward.
Why will he decline? This is only in your head buddy.

His contract is freaking gold! He makes peanuts going forward in real cash and if he retires NSH is in deep trouble.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Look at how much Chris Pronger was worth.

Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, and a 1st, and another 1st that was conditional. It's the most substantial trade of the salary cap era.

For Shea Weber, take Chris Pronger's trade value and divide by two.

There is no chance that Weber's trade value goes near that of Pronger.
That's exactly why you rarely see these blockbuster trades, you rarely get fair value.

More often is a good player for a good player, when you trade a good player for a package, it's usually a bad trade.

I don't know why are you even talking about a Weber trade, you can sleep tight he ain't going nowhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I trust the multitude of experts who have argued with great conviction that DLR has tremendous potential as a defensive forward. I'm assuming that his subpar play up to now is simply due to poor development from the Therrien-Lefebvre administration, who have never developed the defensive game of a single forward.
How many IceCaps games have you watched this season?

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Old
05-13-2017, 06:57 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I trust the multitude of experts who have argued with great conviction that DLR has tremendous potential as a defensive forward. I'm assuming that his subpar play up to now is simply due to poor development from the Therrien-Lefebvre administration, who have never developed the defensive game of a single forward.
DLR projects to be a very good 4th line forward. Big Mac, Byron (yes we were very good this year when he was on the 4th line) and DLR could give teams fits. DLR could skate and hit and even act tough in the playoffs as everyone is a tough guy in the playoffs - just watch Anaheim.

Lehk/Danault/Shaw would be a great third line.

We really need two top 6 to go with Galchenyuk/Gallagher/Max/Rads(hopefully).

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05-13-2017, 07:08 PM
  #118
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He's an established #1 with a ton of pedigree. A pair of late 1st? C'mon...

He may not be worth a Subban, but we could still get some very good pieces for him if trading him ever became an option.
The Bolts have a great forward group and all around 26. defensively they are weak and I assume this is the reason Yzerman is supposedly looking for a top RHD.

Though Weber is 31 he should have several good years to go, which is in line with the prime of their best players. I believe Yzerman would be interested in Weber, in exchange for Drouin.

We would then be without a No.1 D but I really am concerned about Weber's age and the very questionable circumstances we are in as far as contending for a Cup. I would rather turn him into a young high quality asset. i think we get the better end of it value wise and do so only because the Bolts have a window right now that Yzerman may want to grab.

As far as a No.1 D goes, we do have some assets, namely in Patches that we might be able to trade to a defensively deep team that has a younger guy with potential as a no.1. Or a guy close to UFA like Fowler.

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05-13-2017, 07:10 PM
  #119
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The Bolts have a great forward group and all around 26. defensively they are weak and I assume this is the reason Yzerman is supposedly looking for a top RHD.

Though Weber is 31 he should have several good years to go, which is in line with the prime of their best players. I believe Yzerman would be interested in Weber, in exchange for Drouin.

We would then be without a No.1 D but I really am concerned about Weber's age and the very questionable circumstances we are in as far as contending for a Cup. I would rather turn him into a young high quality asset. i think we get the better end of it value wise and do so only because the Bolts have a window right now that Yzerman may want to grab.

As far as a No.1 D goes, we do have some assets, namely in Patches that we might be able to trade to a defensively deep team that has a younger guy with potential as a no.1. Or a guy close to UFA like Fowler.
If you trade Weber you may as well commit to a complete rebuild - trade Price and Max.

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05-13-2017, 07:38 PM
  #120
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If you trade Weber you may as well commit to a complete rebuild - trade Price and Max.
I am pretty much thinking that , but not a rebuild , more a retool. To me a rebuild is where you get rid of players largely for draft picks and prospects. You then drop to the bottom and pick high. The lottery is not so certain anymore.

A retool to me is getting younger high quality players for your older ones. So Weber for Drouin for the reasons given. Trying to move an extended Price for a top young center etc.

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05-13-2017, 07:45 PM
  #121
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If you trade Weber you may as well commit to a complete rebuild - trade Price and Max.
IMO, if Price decides not to extend and Radulov goes elsewhere, we may have to look into a rebuild sooner than we may think.

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05-13-2017, 08:08 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by yianik View Post
I am pretty much thinking that , but not a rebuild , more a retool. To me a rebuild is where you get rid of players largely for draft picks and prospects. You then drop to the bottom and pick high. The lottery is not so certain anymore.

A retool to me is getting younger high quality players for your older ones. So Weber for Drouin for the reasons given. Trying to move an extended Price for a top young center etc.
The problem with this scenario is that even if people around here think Weber is Hall Gill with a better shot he's still one of the best D's in the league and replacing him would be a real challenge.

I mean the only comparable right shot D this organization was able to draft in the last 30 years is PK! 30 freaking years! Let that sink in for a moment...

You trade the guy and?

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05-13-2017, 08:10 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
The problem with this scenario is that even if people around here think Weber is Hall Gill with a better shot he's still one of the best D's in the league and replacing him would be a real challenge.

I mean the only comparable right shot D this organization was able to draft in the last 30 years is PK! 30 freaking years! Let that sink in for a moment...

You trade the guy and?
Bergevin ****ed up!

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Old
05-13-2017, 08:26 PM
  #124
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Bergevin ****ed up!
You can prefer PK and think he's a looooooooooooot better but it's not the case in real life.

PK and Weber are both amazing players! You could label them both generational players.

There's such a slim chance you will be able to draft another D of this ilk that all the discussions about trading him are just pure hypocrisy.

Don't hate, appreciate ffs!

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05-13-2017, 08:38 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
You can prefer PK and think he's a looooooooooooot better but it's not the case in real life.

PK and Weber are both amazing players! You could label them both generational players.

There's such a slim chance you will be able to draft another D of this ilk that all the discussions about trading him are just pure hypocrisy.

Don't hate, appreciate ffs!

Doesn't matter if PK is a loooooot better or better, he's just better. The numbers proves it, the on ice performances proves it, the clutch plays proves it, the playoffs warrior plays proves it. Like I've mentionned before, you need to start watching loooooooots of hockey👍

Shouldn't have traded him, it was one of this organization worst trade in its history by an imcompetent gm.

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