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Carey Price - It's on Him Edition

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Old
05-14-2017, 09:50 AM
  #26
JGRB
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
To say he could've stopped this shot or that one... that's fine. He wasn't able to steal a game... okay.

But to jump from that (as some are doing) and saying that we can't win with the guy or that we should trade him for somebody else is ridiculous. It's also ridiculous to say you can't build around a goalie. Of course you can. But you can't build it around the goalie alone and that's pretty much what we've done.
The only scenario where trading Price is acceptable is to start a rebuild, which under the right circumstances (as I out lined above) would be the right move.

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05-14-2017, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Here's the deal.

If we walk into this summer unable to resign Radulov, and unable to upgrade the centerline, trading Price becomes a legitimate solution. If you cannot fix the holes in the roster during the cup window it would pay dividends to be proactive and actively start the rebuild now as opposed to waiting until our assets are depreciated (or even worse with Price, walk away frustrated with no return).

It HAS to be on the table. HAS to be. If it's not, this organization is on its way to another 20+ years of mediocrity.
I would agree. But we ALL know it won't be. Bergevin gave Price agent a blank cheque.

But it's IMPOSSIBLE to imagine that Subban and Price are traded for rebuild years. If so, he might very well do it, and resign right after. I would do it. Because I am not the one who decided to move Subban. A new GM might do it. But him? Never.

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05-14-2017, 09:54 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I would agree. But we ALL know it won't be. Bergevin gave Price agent a blank cheque.
That is if Price really wants to stay in Montreal....A blank cheque from Montreal don't mean much.

If Price isn't signed before the season starts, you gotta move him....

Here is a nightmare scenario....Price isn't signed to a new deal when season starts, and 20 games in gets injured and is out for the rest of the year...goes UFA

You get nothing(no value) for him.

If Price isn't signed before season starts, that tells me he plans on leaving town ...


Last edited by Habaneros: 05-14-2017 at 10:03 AM.
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05-14-2017, 09:54 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I would agree. But we ALL know it won't be. Bergevin gave Price agent a blank cheque.
Which could potentially be another huge mistake. Try winning anything with a goalie eating up 10M of your cap.

I suppose that fits the bill of excuses though "it's hard to win cause da cap, we have some big contract, hard to add big Center too, we are a grinding team wit Carey as our star"

Another 5-6 years of mid-round picks and stagnation.

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05-14-2017, 09:55 AM
  #30
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I actually watched the games, and no one who did would say Price was our best player but you.
Dead wrong and total nonsense.

You should probably also look in the mirror on this one. From the get go you were all over Price from the moment he gave up a goal in game one.
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
It was very obvious that Radulov and Weber were our best players.. by far. I know for a fact you actually didn't watch one of our wins since you told us you were in a rave or something. So how would you even be in a position to argue with me about this when you didn't even watch one of our wins?
I watched them all. So did the folks on the main boards where I spent a bunch of time policing. It was "Price can't do it by himself" comments. Moreover, people were wondering why a few of our posters were trying to blame Price who was "Montreal's best player."

No problem with anyone who said Radulov was our best player but Price was just as good if not better.
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Stealing games for me is when a goalie allows a team to win a game they got outplayed in by making several big saves. But yeah sure, I agree it's meaningless.

No, it's like saying why didn't Ovechkin score the big goal when his team needed him to in game #7 against the pens, or any other game they lost by one goal. Ovechkin definitely didn't rise to the occasion in these playoffs. But you can't blame him solely for the loss. No loss can be put on a single player. I'm not doing that for Price either. But certainly both players lack of performance contributed to the final result.
If we can't win with the goaltending we got in that series then we're never going to win anything.

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05-14-2017, 10:01 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If we can't win with the goaltending we got then we're never going to win anything.
See LG...that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Everybody who won a Cup didn't have the goalie that we had. And they won. So you can totally win without a Price. Been happening for most of the years. What you can win without is a great rest of the team. A great centermen line. Awesome puck possession and puckmoving d-men.

So that's why trading Subban for WEber was incredibly stupid. But why trading Price, if the trade would be done properly which means by NOT Bergevin, wouldn't be as much a problem as Subban trade....I really can't imagine what this team would be if our Lindgren would be our Matt Murray and play like Murray did, and if we could added a top puckmoving d-man and a top forward for Price....

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05-14-2017, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
To say he could've stopped this shot or that one... that's fine. He wasn't able to steal a game... okay.

But to jump from that (as some are doing) and saying that we can't win with the guy or that we should trade him for somebody else is ridiculous. It's also ridiculous to say you can't build around a goalie. Of course you can. But you can't build it around the goalie alone and that's pretty much what we've done.
Of course he's good enough to win a cup with the right team. One of 34 year old Rinne, Fleury, 35 year old Anderson or Gibson is going to win the cup this year. If Niemi can win a cup, any goalie can win a cup.

The question is can Price win while being the best player of the team ? Can he win a Conn Smythe and be the best player on a cup winning team ? I don't believe in that, and I don't think you can say that's ridiculous. All it means is that I don't put Price on the same pedestal you put him on.

Also, I'm not advocating trading Price. It would be pointless. Price's value as a 29 year old goalie with 1 year left on his deal in a league saturated with amazing goalies is nowhere near as much as the hole it would leave. Only scenario it makes sense in is a rebuild. Hell, I'm even ready to overpay Price at 9M-10M per to keep him. I'd not however sign him to a deal longer than 4-5 years. He'll be 31 when he starts his new deal.

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05-14-2017, 10:05 AM
  #33
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See LG...that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Everybody who won a Cup didn't have the goalie that we had. And they won. So you can totally win without a Price. Been happening for most of the years. What you can win without is a great rest of the team. A great centermen line. Awesome puck possession and puckmoving d-men.

So that's why trading Subban for WEber was incredibly stupid. But why trading Price, if the trade would be done properly which means by NOT Bergevin, wouldn't be as much a problem as Subban trade....
Re-read what I said.

I said that if we can't win with the goaltending we got in that series, we're never going to win anything. That doesn't mean you need Carey Price to win something...

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05-14-2017, 10:11 AM
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Right now as we speak how many teams see Price as their chance at a Cup...
I know some here see us in that light but I don't.
Fair question because it is the only place we'd get true value for him in a transaction.
It would also neccesarily be for picks and prospects because if you are pushing for a cup you aren't moving core guys.

Isn't this pretty much the situation we are in with Carey?

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05-14-2017, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
See LG...that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Everybody who won a Cup didn't have the goalie that we had. And they won. So you can totally win without a Price. Been happening for most of the years. What you can win without is a great rest of the team. A great centermen line. Awesome puck possession and puckmoving d-men.

So that's why trading Subban for WEber was incredibly stupid. But why trading Price, if the trade would be done properly which means by NOT Bergevin, wouldn't be as much a problem as Subban trade....I really can't imagine what this team would be if our Lindgren would be our Matt Murray and play like Murray did, and if we could added a top puckmoving d-man and a top forward for Price....
Is Lindgren playing as well in the AHL as Murray was ? I think Murray was out of this world in the AHL for the baby pens, better than Lindgren. Still I agree with your point. And if it's not Lindgren, then Fucale or McNiven could play out of their minds in one playoffs like Halak did.

Also, we're not going to land a top PMD and/or a top forward for Price. If you trade Price, it will be to a team who has a hole in net (Dallas now out of the equation), and who is trying to win right now. There's no point for such a team to weaken themselves with their skaters to add Price. Not when you can acquire a guy like Bishop for so cheap. The difference between Price and Bishop is not worth giving up anything valuable. The best you'll get for price is future assets. Prospects, picks...

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05-14-2017, 10:13 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
See LG...that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Everybody who won a Cup didn't have the goalie that we had. And they won. So you can totally win without a Price. Been happening for most of the years. What you can win without is a great rest of the team. A great centermen line. Awesome puck possession and puckmoving d-men.

So that's why trading Subban for WEber was incredibly stupid. But why trading Price, if the trade would be done properly which means by NOT Bergevin, wouldn't be as much a problem as Subban trade....I really can't imagine what this team would be if our Lindgren would be our Matt Murray and play like Murray did, and if we could added a top puckmoving d-man and a top forward for Price....
Thats a stupid conundrum WS. We have a great player at a position, one of the greatest if not the greatest, it should just be easier for us to win a cup considering that. The problem is not Price (Weber), its that Pacioretty never brings it, we have no top 6 centers, we have very few defensive depth, we had a bad system... The team is terrible with a few great spots. Winning teams are great with a few bad spots. That Price is paid 8M or 6m or 9M, it wouldnt change anything to our ability to win.

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05-14-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Re-read what I said.

I said that if we can't win with the goaltending we got in that series, we're never going to win anything. That doesn't mean you need Carey Price to win something...
Well Carey had fine playoffs....but wasn't on top of his class in the 1st round. He had great numbers. But people forget that 5 others had better numbers. So you still, for a particular round, have Price get better numbers and a better performance.

And frankly, I absolutely couldn't care less about the numbers when it's time to talk about stealing games. He could have gave 12 goals on 13 shots on 1 given game, and still be able to save 3 games with a Save% under .900. Be awful all you want for 3 games, but if you have a game saving god for the 4 games you wins, he'll still be seen as the guy who elevates his game when we need it the most despite putrid numbers. I'M exagerating...but you get the point.

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05-14-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Rapala View Post
Right now as we speak how many teams see Price as their chance at a Cup...
I know some here see us in that light but I don't.
Fair question because it is the only place we'd get true value for him in a transaction.
It would also neccesarily be for picks and prospects because if you are pushing for a cup you aren't moving core guys.

Isn't this pretty much the situation we are in with Carey?
Yes. No one is giving up a skater for Price that would make sense for us. You have to keep Price. There's no point in trading him unless we're rebuilding. Or if we think we can get more bang for our bucks with another goalie (Lindgren, McNiven, Fucale) in 1-2-3 years. That's why we absolutely cannot give Price an 8 year deal. It would be the worst kind of mistake. At some point down the line one of the 3 goalies named above.. or perhaps another goalie will be younger, better, cheaper, better bang for our bucks. And I hope we aren't stuck with Price on a terrible Lundvqist like deal when that happens.

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05-14-2017, 10:17 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Rapala View Post
Right now as we speak how many teams see Price as their chance at a Cup...
I know some here see us in that light but I don't.
Fair question because it is the only place we'd get true value for him in a transaction.
It would also neccesarily be for picks and prospects because if you are pushing for a cup you aren't moving core guys.

Isn't this pretty much the situation we are in with Carey?
Winnipeg.

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05-14-2017, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
Yes. No one is giving up a skater for Price that would make sense for us. You have to keep Price. There's no point in trading him unless we're rebuilding. Or if we think we can get more bang for our bucks with another goalie (Lindgren, McNiven, Fucale) in 1-2-3 years. That's why we absolutely cannot give Price an 8 year deal. It would be the worst kind of mistake. At some point down the line one of the 3 goalies named above.. or perhaps another goalie will be younger, better, cheaper, better bang for our bucks. And I hope we aren't stuck with Price on a terrible Lundvqist like deal when that happens.

Don Cherry says McNiven is better than Price is right now...case closed... McNiven starts in 2017

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05-14-2017, 10:18 AM
  #41
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Of course he's good enough to win a cup with the right team. One of 34 year old Rinne, Fleury, 35 year old Anderson or Gibson is going to win the cup this year. If Niemi can win a cup, any goalie can win a cup.

The question is can Price win while being the best player of the team ? Can he win a Conn Smythe and be the best player on a cup winning team ? I don't believe in that, and I don't think you can say that's ridiculous. All it means is that I don't put Price on the same pedestal you put him on.
You're free to not believe it if you wish. But the guy has already shown he can carry teams to 100 point seasons. He's won every award there is and he's 7 points better than the next closest guy in save percentage over the past few years. There's certainly strong evidence he can do it.

Moreover, he may have done it already had he not gotten run by Kreider. For all your talk of "look at Karlsson leading his guy in the 3rd round, unlike Price" type stuff, you forget that Price did the same thing three years ago with a mostly bad team. It's unfortunate he wasn't able to stay healthy and too bad we lost another year of his prime but when he's been healthy he's been mostly excellent.

And when he hasn't been excellent, you've suddenly popped up to talk about it.
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Also, I'm not advocating trading Price. It would be pointless. Price's value as a 29 year old goalie with 1 year left on his deal in a league saturated with amazing goalies is nowhere near as much as the hole it would leave. Only scenario it makes sense in is a rebuild. Hell, I'm even ready to overpay Price at 9M-10M per to keep him. I'd not however sign him to a deal longer than 4-5 years. He'll be 31 when he starts his new deal.
My guess is it will be 8 years at 9 mil. If it's less, great. But that's what I'm expecting.

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05-14-2017, 10:19 AM
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Well Carey had fine playoffs....but wasn't on top of his class in the 1st round. He had great numbers. But people forget that 5 others had better numbers. So you still, for a particular round, have Price get better numbers and a better performance.

And frankly, I absolutely couldn't care less about the numbers when it's time to talk about stealing games. He could have gave 12 goals on 13 shots on 1 given game, and still be able to save 3 games with a Save% under .900. Be awful all you want for 3 games, but if you have a game saving god for the 4 games you wins, he'll still be seen as the guy who elevates his game when we need it the most despite putrid numbers. I'M exagerating...but you get the point.
That's Halak in a nutshell in the playoffs when we got to the ECF. We were facing the top teams in the east in the pens and caps. And it was a shooting gallery. When Halak was on, he was on. And he was on enough for us to win 4 games for both series. That's what a weaker offensive team need from a goalie.

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05-14-2017, 10:23 AM
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Thats a stupid conundrum WS. We have a great player at a position, one of the greatest if not the greatest, it should just be easier for us to win a cup considering that. The problem is not Price (Weber), its that Pacioretty never brings it, we have no top 6 centers, we have very few defensive depth, we had a bad system... The team is terrible with a few great spots. Winning teams are great with a few bad spots. That Price is paid 8M or 6m or 9M, it wouldnt change anything to our ability to win.
I have no idea why you bring money. I didn't bring money in the post you replied to. Then, there's nothing stupid in believing that EVERYTHING YOU SAID THAT WE ARE MISSING, we are NOT going to obtain them by giving up Scherback, Daniel Carr and a 4th round pick. We do NOT have what it takes to acquire what we are missing. I keep being remember that everything that includes Pacioretty, Galchenyuk or whoever has some kind of value will be nothing else than lateral movement. No improvement whatsoever. I don't particularly agree but they might be right. So the solution to improve is to get great players from nothing players. Makes no sense.

What makes sense is to try transfrom great value into greater value. Do whatever you can with that. And I'm fine with it. And I repeatedly said that Price is NOT a problem. But I've been told last year that we lost because Price wasn't there. Price was there this year and we lost the 1st round. So he is NOT a solution to win and go far. Surely a solution to make the playoffs. But what it means is that you make them, you KNOW you don't have a team to go far, but now with the stupid rule, is that your pick is even worst at the draft while having a terrible playoffs team on your hands. Insane how screwed we are. A goalie that will make us make the playoffs. And a rest of the team with guys we either shouldn't trade because it will be lateral movement or because nobody wants them, all that while choosing far at the draft. Not only is there no lights at the end of the tunnel. We haven,t even build the tunnel yet.

Oh and before you insult me, please try to use an expression I understand. There's nothing more frustrating than being insulted and having to look at google to see how insulted I have to be.

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05-14-2017, 10:23 AM
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Well Carey had fine playoffs....but wasn't on top of his class in the 1st round. He had great numbers. But people forget that 5 others had better numbers. So you still, for a particular round, have Price get better numbers and a better performance.

And frankly, I absolutely couldn't care less about the numbers when it's time to talk about stealing games. He could have gave 12 goals on 13 shots on 1 given game, and still be able to save 3 games with a Save% under .900. Be awful all you want for 3 games, but if you have a game saving god for the 4 games you wins, he'll still be seen as the guy who elevates his game when we need it the most despite putrid numbers. I'M exagerating...but you get the point.
With goalies all you're debating is how close to perfect they can get... 1.000 is the target. If you're .920 or better you're giving your team a really good chance to win. If you're doing .930+ your team has to work hard to NOT win. At .940 it's pretty damn hard to lose.

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05-14-2017, 10:23 AM
  #45
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That's Halak in a nutshell in the playoffs when we got to the ECF. We were facing the top teams in the east in the pens and caps. And it was a shooting gallery. When Halak was on, he was on. And he was on enough for us to win 4 games for both series. That's what a weaker offensive team need from a goalie.
If Price goes , there is a few stop gaps available like Halak /Ryan Miller
etc...Habs could sign either guy to a 1-2 year deal etc.....

Or go full tilt with Lindgren and go offer Condon more money than Ottawa...

Let's not forget Condon saved Ottawa's season,if they win the Cup we played a big part in that....

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05-14-2017, 10:26 AM
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That's Halak in a nutshell in the playoffs when we got to the ECF. We were facing the top teams in the east in the pens and caps. And it was a shooting gallery. When Halak was on, he was on. And he was on enough for us to win 4 games for both series. That's what a weaker offensive team need from a goalie.
And Price has given this to us in the past. But sooner or later (as it happened with Halak) it catches up to you.

Unfortunately for Price he's had injuries that have also taken away some runs/seasons in his prime. And sadly there's at least one if not two times where it looks like it was done deliberately in the playoffs.

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05-14-2017, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
That's Halak in a nutshell in the playoffs when we got to the ECF. We were facing the top teams in the east in the pens and caps. And it was a shooting gallery. When Halak was on, he was on. And he was on enough for us to win 4 games for both series. That's what a weaker offensive team need from a goalie.
Weaker offensive team?

40 goals scored in first 14 games

Cammy alone had 14 goals.

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05-14-2017, 10:27 AM
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Is Lindgren playing as well in the AHL as Murray was ? I think Murray was out of this world in the AHL for the baby pens, better than Lindgren. Still I agree with your point. And if it's not Lindgren, then Fucale or McNiven could play out of their minds in one playoffs like Halak did.

Also, we're not going to land a top PMD and/or a top forward for Price. If you trade Price, it will be to a team who has a hole in net (Dallas now out of the equation), and who is trying to win right now. There's no point for such a team to weaken themselves with their skaters to add Price. Not when you can acquire a guy like Bishop for so cheap. The difference between Price and Bishop is not worth giving up anything valuable. The best you'll get for price is future assets. Prospects, picks...
Well you never know the extent of which a team would like to add a Price. Having said that....I've been ready for years for a rebuild. So in a top C and a top D, if it means getting my hands on a Keller or whatever and that those top C and top D means young ones, maybe yet unproven but almost ready to be....I say why not. Lindgren isn't old.

We went that route with a core that would bring it. They won't. Time to rebuid a new core with the one we already have before they are not worth anything. I'd do it. They won't. WE will just pretend to be cup contending and make people believe with tons of hope. That's their plan. Make people believe there is hope we can get there. Rebuild makes people believe there will be no hope for the upcoming years. And they probably can't deal with a few years when it will be tougher to put people in the stands and buy their 20$ hot-dogs.....

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05-14-2017, 10:28 AM
  #49
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Weaker offensive team?

40 goals scored in 14 games we won.

Cammy alone had 14 goals.
This is what we need most......we need snipers who can score in the PLAYOFFS.....

To many times Montreal goes limp in the playoffs on offense.

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05-14-2017, 10:28 AM
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Weaker offensive team?

40 goals scored in first 14 games

Cammy alone had 14 goals.
He's saying that what weaker teams need from their goalie....not that the team in front of Halak was weak offensively.

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