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Carey Price - It's on Him Edition

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Old
05-14-2017, 10:29 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Habaneros View Post
This is what we need most......we need snipers who can score.....

To many times Montreal goes limp in the playoffs on offense.
That's because Pacioretty is a limp noodle.

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05-14-2017, 10:29 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You're free to not believe it if you wish. But the guy has already shown he can carry teams to 100 point seasons. He's won every award there is and he's 7 points better than the next closest guy in save percentage over the past few years. There's certainly strong evidence he can do it.

Moreover, he may have done it already had he not gotten run by Kreider. For all your talk of "look at Karlsson leading his guy in the 3rd round, unlike Price" type stuff, you forget that Price did the same thing three years ago with a mostly bad team. It's unfortunate he wasn't able to stay healthy and too bad we lost another year of his prime but when he's been healthy he's been mostly excellent.

And when he hasn't been excellent, you've suddenly popped up to talk about it.
In that entire 2013-14 run, the only games we won where games where we scored 3 goals or more.

That year we wiped the floor with TB. Price had little to do with that sweep. We scored 4 goals per game average for the entire series against TB, and 3 of our wins where by 1 goal. So we actually needed all those goals to win.

He was really solid against a much superior Boston team. Him and Subban carried us. Especially in the first 4 games where Boston dominated us and we came out of that 2-2. That seemed to deflate Boston then we took over and were the better team the rest of the way. But once again, we only won games where we scored at least 3 goals.

If Price's claim to fame is 2013-14... his best performance ? It wasn't anything to write home about. He was solid. But for a player you think is the best at his position, his best playoffs performance is not anything fans from other teams will continue talking about. No one will remember those performances except some die hard habs fans and Price fans. I'm sorry I'll need a little more than that to be truly impressed. And it's not even close to what Karlsson is doing right now IMHO.

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Old
05-14-2017, 10:32 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
With goalies all you're debating is how close to perfect they can get... 1.000 is the target. If you're .920 or better you're giving your team a really good chance to win. If you're doing .930+ your team has to work hard to NOT win. At .940 it's pretty damn hard to lose.
And again, what I was looking at was better than .909 in his last game. Or .917 the game before.

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Old
05-14-2017, 10:37 AM
  #54
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In that entire 2013-14 run, the only games we won where games where we scored 3 goals or more.
We had no business beating Boston that year. First game alone he faced something like 50+ shots. That was a huge upset.
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
That year we wiped the floor with TB. Price had little to do with that sweep. We scored 4 goals per game average for the entire series against TB, and 3 of our wins where by 1 goal. So we actually needed all those goals to win.
Who cares? Crushing TB is great, we sure as hell wouldn't have crushed Boston without him.
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
He was really solid against a much superior Boston team. Him and Subban carried us. Especially in the first 4 games where Boston dominated us and we came out of that 2-2. That seemed to deflate Boston then we took over and were the better team the rest of the way. But once again, we only won games where we scored at least 3 goals.

If Price's claim to fame is 2013-14... his best performance ? It wasn't anything to write home about. He was solid. But for a player you think is the best at his position, his best playoffs performance is not anything fans from other teams will continue talking about. No one will remember those performances except some die hard habs fans and Price fans. I'm sorry I'll need a little more than that to be truly impressed. And it's not even close to what Karlsson is doing right now IMHO.
His "claim to fame" is taking mediocre bad teams to the playoffs consistently. Beyond that we haven't had the team to win.

As for doing what Karlsson is doing now... hell yes he did. That team had no business making the playoffs to begin with. Bottom third everywhere with terrible numbers. He got that team into the playoffs with 100 points. It should've been a lottery team. That alone was a huge feat. We crushed TB? Great. But there's zero way we get by Boston without Price's heroics.

He and Subban were the team. And that's why Kreider went in Kamakaze style against us.

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Old
05-14-2017, 10:42 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I have no idea why you bring money. I didn't bring money in the post you replied to. Then, there's nothing stupid in believing that EVERYTHING YOU SAID THAT WE ARE MISSING, we are NOT going to obtain them by giving up Scherback, Daniel Carr and a 4th round pick. We do NOT have what it takes to acquire what we are missing. I keep being remember that everything that includes Pacioretty, Galchenyuk or whoever has some kind of value will be nothing else than lateral movement. No improvement whatsoever. I don't particularly agree but they might be right. So the solution to improve is to get great players from nothing players. Makes no sense.

What makes sense is to try transfrom great value into greater value. Do whatever you can with that. And I'm fine with it. And I repeatedly said that Price is NOT a problem. But I've been told last year that we lost because Price wasn't there. Price was there this year and we lost the 1st round. So he is NOT a solution to win and go far. Surely a solution to make the playoffs. But what it means is that you make them, you KNOW you don't have a team to go far, but now with the stupid rule, is that your pick is even worst at the draft while having a terrible playoffs team on your hands. Insane how screwed we are. A goalie that will make us make the playoffs. And a rest of the team with guys we either shouldn't trade because it will be lateral movement or because nobody wants them, all that while choosing far at the draft. Not only is there no lights at the end of the tunnel. We haven,t even build the tunnel yet.

Oh and before you insult me, please try to use an expression I understand. There's nothing more frustrating than being insulted and having to look at google to see how insulted I have to be.
Okay you gave me a chuckle there im leaving you alone for today

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Old
05-14-2017, 10:44 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
He's saying that what weaker teams need from their goalie....not that the team in front of Halak was weak offensively.
But how would we know that? If the team in front of Halak wasnt actually weak offensively and Price never had a strong team offensively in front of him.

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05-14-2017, 10:54 AM
  #57
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We went that route with a core that would bring it. They won't. Time to rebuid a new core with the one we already have before they are not worth anything. I'd do it. They won't. WE will just pretend to be cup contending and make people believe with tons of hope. That's their plan. Make people believe there is hope we can get there. Rebuild makes people believe there will be no hope for the upcoming years. And they probably can't deal with a few years when it will be tougher to put people in the stands and buy their 20$ hot-dogs.....
I'll give it one more year. Perhaps Lehkonen improves at an exponential rate, we keep Radulov, we add Duchesne for many futures and he is on a mission to prove that last year wasn't the norm, and Galchenyuk proves to everyone that he's 100% recovered from his knee injury and goes back to ppg center form, Danault continues to improve and becomes a 50-60 pts 2-way forward and Price/Weber are ultra motivated from watching Subban bring the cup to Montreal and destroy everything all year, and we're super healthy at the right time..

In my ultra optimistic scenario I did not mention Pacioretty elevating his game in the playoffs however because that would just be day dreaming.

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05-14-2017, 11:00 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
I'll give it one more year. Perhaps Lehkonen improves at an exponential rate, we keep Radulov, we add Duchesne for many futures and he is on a mission to prove that last year wasn't the norm, and Galchenyuk proves to everyone that he's 100% recovered from his knee injury and goes back to ppg center form, Danault continues to improve and becomes a 50-60 pts 2-way forward and Price/Weber are ultra motivated from watching Subban bring the cup to Montreal and destroy everything all year, and we're super healthy at the right time..

In my ultra optimistic scenario I did not mention Pacioretty elevating his game in the playoffs however because that would just be day dreaming.
Yeah, there's a freakin limit to rose-colored glasses...

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05-14-2017, 11:24 AM
  #59
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I think Price is a bit victim of all the glorification, 'best in the world' stuff.

Fame is fleeting, especially has been for goaltenders recently.

Who was the last goaltender to look dominant two years in a row in the playoffs?

Rinne has had a nice run this year and in the past but there was down spell there for quite a while.

Price is a fine player but 'best in the world' tag in a given game or series doesn't mean much.

In a tough series, it's someone like Anderson or Fleury on top of his game, giving his team a chance to be successful.

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05-14-2017, 01:33 PM
  #60
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Back in '95, there used to be like 10 good goalies in the league. And there was a huge drop off between the top 3 and the rest of the league. Guys like Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were pretty far ahead of everyone else. Then you had a second category of guys like Richter, Cujo, Belfour. But times have changed.

Nowadays, there's like 20-25 good goalies. And no one is consistently better than everyone else, no current active goalie has won multiple vezina trophies (about to change with Brobo, Holtby and Price since all 3 have won one vezina each and they're all nominated for this year's vezina). No active vezina winner has won a cup.

Going back to 2010-11 (Price's first good season as a legit starter) if you look at cumulative save % :
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggr...&sort=savePctg
There's 0,01 SV% separating top 6 and 0,04 SV% separating the top 10.

Building a team around Price is pointless since he is not that much better than everyone else (if at all) that it gives us an advantage over any other team, especially considering how much goaltending performances fluctuates from year to year.

And we're only talking regular season here.

In the playoffs, a lot of goalies seem able to find another gear and play at another level whereas Price goes down in level slightly in the playoffs over the same period of time (since 2010-11) as evidenced here with Price not cracking the top 10 in save % :

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggr...&sort=savePctg

Even if you take the cutoff at Price's best season in 2014-15, it's not much better in the playoffs he doesn't crack the top 5 :

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggregate=1&gameType=3&report=goaliesummary &pos=G&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20142015&seaso nTo=20162017&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,15&sort=savePc tg

He's 0,01 better than Fleury and Rinne in playoffs save% since 2014-15.

And we're talking about Price's peak here. It's not going to get better.

But eh, Price is another good goalie among many others who had an amazing peak in 2014-15.

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05-14-2017, 02:31 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
Back in '95, there used to be like 10 good goalies in the league. And there was a huge drop off between the top 3 and the rest of the league. Guys like Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were pretty far ahead of everyone else. Then you had a second category of guys like Richter, Cujo, Belfour. But times have changed.

Nowadays, there's like 20-25 good goalies. And no one is consistently better than everyone else, no current active goalie has won multiple vezina trophies (about to change with Brobo, Holtby and Price since all 3 have won one vezina each and they're all nominated for this year's vezina). No active vezina winner has won a cup.

Going back to 2010-11 (Price's first good season as a legit starter) if you look at cumulative save % :
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggr...&sort=savePctg
There's 0,01 SV% separating top 6 and 0,04 SV% separating the top 10.

Building a team around Price is pointless since he is not that much better than everyone else (if at all) that it gives us an advantage over any other team, especially considering how much goaltending performances fluctuates from year to year.

And we're only talking regular season here.

In the playoffs, a lot of goalies seem able to find another gear and play at another level whereas Price goes down in level slightly in the playoffs over the same period of time (since 2010-11) as evidenced here with Price not cracking the top 10 in save % :

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggr...&sort=savePctg

Even if you take the cutoff at Price's best season in 2014-15, it's not much better in the playoffs he doesn't crack the top 5 :

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggregate=1&gameType=3&report=goaliesummary &pos=G&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20142015&seaso nTo=20162017&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,15&sort=savePc tg

He's 0,01 better than Fleury and Rinne in playoffs save% since 2014-15.

And we're talking about Price's peak here. It's not going to get better.

But eh, Price is another good goalie among many others who had an amazing peak in 2014-15.
Good post!

More reason to get rid of him and work on rebuilding the team with offensively gifted players.

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Old
05-14-2017, 03:56 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
Back in '95, there used to be like 10 good goalies in the league. And there was a huge drop off between the top 3 and the rest of the league. Guys like Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were pretty far ahead of everyone else. Then you had a second category of guys like Richter, Cujo, Belfour. But times have changed.

Nowadays, there's like 20-25 good goalies. And no one is consistently better than everyone else...
Yeah right.

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05-14-2017, 04:15 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Yeah right.
I can list at least 25 good goalies, can you?

Halak, Bishop, Halak, Quick, Halak, Rask, Halak, Holtby, Halak, Bobrovsky, Halak, Allen, Halak, Dubnyk, Halak, Schneider, Halak, Jones, Halak, Crawford, Halak, Rinne...

That should be 25? I didnt bother with the rest, you just dont win with the.

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05-14-2017, 04:25 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
I can list at least 25 good goalies, can you?

Halak, Bishop, Halak, Quick, Halak, Rask, Halak, Holtby, Halak, Bobrovsky, Halak, Allen, Halak, Dubnyk, Halak, Schneider, Halak, Jones, Halak, Crawford, Halak, Rinne...

That should be 25? I didnt bother with the rest, you just dont win with the.
Price
Schneider
Talbot
Rask
Holtby
Lundqvist
Luongo
Brobovsky
Bishop
Rinne
Quick
Crawford
Anderson
Dubnyk
Andersen
Fleury
Halak
Jones
Varlamov
Miller

I think they're all "good" goalies that you can expect to make the playoffs with. All of them have cumulated a save % superior to .915 since 2010-11, have played at least 150 games

Not even talking about retired goalies like Thomas, Vokoun or new guys who have yet to play 150 games like Murray, Gibson.

I guess it's easier to make dumb Halak jokes than face reality.

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05-14-2017, 04:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
Back in '95, there used to be like 10 good goalies in the league. And there was a huge drop off between the top 3 and the rest of the league. Guys like Roy, Hasek and Brodeur were pretty far ahead of everyone else. Then you had a second category of guys like Richter, Cujo, Belfour. But times have changed.

Nowadays, there's like 20-25 good goalies. And no one is consistently better than everyone else, no current active goalie has won multiple vezina trophies (about to change with Brobo, Holtby and Price since all 3 have won one vezina each and they're all nominated for this year's vezina). No active vezina winner has won a cup.

Going back to 2010-11 (Price's first good season as a legit starter) if you look at cumulative save % :
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggr...&sort=savePctg
There's 0,01 SV% separating top 6 and 0,04 SV% separating the top 10.

Building a team around Price is pointless since he is not that much better than everyone else (if at all) that it gives us an advantage over any other team, especially considering how much goaltending performances fluctuates from year to year.

And we're only talking regular season here.

In the playoffs, a lot of goalies seem able to find another gear and play at another level whereas Price goes down in level slightly in the playoffs over the same period of time (since 2010-11) as evidenced here with Price not cracking the top 10 in save % :

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggr...&sort=savePctg

Even if you take the cutoff at Price's best season in 2014-15, it's not much better in the playoffs he doesn't crack the top 5 :

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?aggregate=1&gameType=3&report=goaliesummary &pos=G&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20142015&seaso nTo=20162017&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,15&sort=savePc tg

He's 0,01 better than Fleury and Rinne in playoffs save% since 2014-15.

And we're talking about Price's peak here. It's not going to get better.

But eh, Price is another good goalie among many others who had an amazing peak in 2014-15.
Good post man. Personnally, I don't think it's that huge of a problem to add 4M$ to Price salary. It is indeed better to keep a good goalie IF you are able to improve everywhere else. But if you can't, and you actually can get 2 great players for the price of...Price. Or could get 2 or 3 great young pieces in a rebuild for Price.... any of those 2 might clearly be better than keeping him behind an average team till the end of his career where we KNOW it would mean never win anything despite this whole "just make the playoffs" stupid Bergie analysis.

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05-14-2017, 04:56 PM
  #66
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Good post man. Personnally, I don't think it's that huge of a problem to add 4M$ to Price salary. It is indeed better to keep a good goalie IF you are able to improve everywhere else. But if you can't, and you actually can get 2 great players for the price of...Price. Or could get 2 or 3 great young pieces in a rebuild for Price.... any of those 2 might clearly be better than keeping him behind an average team till the end of his career where we KNOW it would mean never win anything despite this whole "just make the playoffs" stupid Bergie analysis.
Obviously keeping any great players on bad team is stupid. You have to go with the assumption that the team can get better.

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05-14-2017, 05:27 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
Price
Schneider
Talbot
Rask
Holtby
Lundqvist
Luongo
Brobovsky
Bishop
Rinne
Quick
Crawford
Anderson
Dubnyk
Andersen
Fleury
Halak
Jones
Varlamov
Miller

I think they're all "good" goalies that you can expect to make the playoffs with. All of them have cumulated a save % superior to .915 since 2010-11, have played at least 150 games

Not even talking about retired goalies like Thomas, Vokoun or new guys who have yet to play 150 games like Murray, Gibson.

I guess it's easier to make dumb Halak jokes than face reality.
I'm sold. Let's trade Price and get Roberto Luongo. Everything will be fine.

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05-14-2017, 05:46 PM
  #68
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I'm sold. Let's trade Price and get Roberto Luongo. Everything will be fine.
Clearly that was the conclusion to derive from this.

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05-14-2017, 05:58 PM
  #69
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Trade Price? I mean, I don't mind if they do so long as the return is justified but do you guys really imagine Bergevin Trading Subban and Price in his first stint as GM? That would look so damaging. When was the last time a team traded two cornerstone/"franchise" players by the same GM, especially a rookie GM. Not happening. They will do everything required to sign him unless if Bergevin is fired first.

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05-14-2017, 06:00 PM
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Clearly that was the conclusion to derive from this.
Well what the hell was the point of your post then? Why are you listing Roberto Luongo here? The only conclusion I draw from your posts is that you're attempting to undermine Carey Price. I'm not sure what the hell the point is of listing those 20 some odd goalies there...

Yes, any half decent goalie might win on a stacked team... but we aren't going to have a stacked team. We don't have Crosby, Malkin and Kessel playing for us. And even if we did I'd be scared ****less about using a guy like Fleury who's inconsistent and you're not sure what you're going to get.

I don't know... maybe we could just stick with Price and go get some decent scoring. That might work. Unfortunately trades are hard.

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05-14-2017, 06:06 PM
  #71
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I'm also a proponent of not building around a goaltender, but the real problem with Price is that he has encouraged management to be complacent.

Great goaltending is icing for a team that hopes to consistently contend each year.

It's sad that the only way this team will move forward is when he declines/moves on, because burningbin won't invest in this team's present.

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05-14-2017, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Well what the hell was the point of your post then? Why are you listing Roberto Luongo here? The only conclusion I draw from your posts is that you're attempting to undermine Carey Price. I'm not sure what the hell the point is of listing those 20 some odd goalies there...

Yes, any half decent goalie might win on a stacked team... but we aren't going to have a stacked team. We don't have Crosby, Malkin and Kessel playing for us. And even if we did I'd be scared ****less about using a guy like Fleury who's inconsistent and you're not sure what you're going to get.

I don't know... maybe we could just stick with Price and go get some decent scoring. That might work. Unfortunately trades are hard.
Any point I'd try to make would be lost on you apparently if your first instinct was to say I wanted to trade Price for Luongo. Another amazing strawman LG !

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05-14-2017, 06:19 PM
  #73
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Any point I'd try to make would be lost on you apparently if your first instinct was to say I wanted to trade Price for Luongo. Another amazing strawman LG !
As I said... I have no idea what point you were trying to make. Your purpose is to undermine our goalie.

"Hey guys, here's 20 good goalies. I'm not saying we should trade Price though..."

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05-14-2017, 06:52 PM
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As I said... I have no idea what point you were trying to make. Your purpose is to undermine our goalie.

"Hey guys, here's 20 good goalies. I'm not saying we should trade Price though..."
I was actually only providing food for thought and wasn't even really drawing conclusions. You did that all on your own with the trade Price for Luongo strawman. It's funny because all I did was post stats, and apparently they bothered you so much you decided to go into overprotective mode as if Price was your own child.

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05-14-2017, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
I was actually only providing food for thought and wasn't even really drawing conclusions. You did that all on your own with the trade Price for Luongo strawman. It's funny because all I did was post stats, and apparently they bothered you so much you decided to go into overprotective mode as if Price was your own child.
Nope, just calling you out. And please don't pretend like this isn't what you're doing when you write stuff like this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Less Louise View Post
Building a team around Price is pointless since he is not that much better than everyone else (if at all) that it gives us an advantage over any other team, especially considering how much goaltending performances fluctuates from year to year...
And yep, goaltending does fluctuate year to year... that's why it makes sense to go with top goalies who are more consistent.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 05-14-2017 at 07:04 PM.
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