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Time for a Drafting and Development Change

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Old
05-15-2017, 07:30 AM
  #1
Wandering Maroon
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Time for a Drafting and Development Change

This could be a Timmins or Gauthier or Churla or Lapointe or etc... rant but there is no point. They are all guilty as charged. We could blame Therrien but in the end a coach's job is to win games not develop players (he isn't here anyways). Has anybody checked out our drafting and development over the last 15-20 years? And we all want to trade away our only successful drafted players (Price, Galchenyuk, Price, Beaulieu)? Take a look for yourself, terrible drafting bordering on clueless. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00006929.html It started way before the current adminsitration and it just kept going.

We have to get better scouts. Player development is another weakness. If you look at the successful teams Chicago, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, Nashville, Ottawa and now Toronto, Calgary and Edmonton we don't develop any of our prospects. Maybe they aren't that good to start but that's on scouting. For years we missed out on Russia, the it was Sweden, the US and now it looks like Finland is the next hockey power. Switzerland is up and coming. At least we are scounting the OHL, WHL and QMJHL better. But we're missing out on the US High School ranks.

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05-15-2017, 07:34 AM
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Yes but it's an Old Boys Club so no one will be held accountable. I guess that means the owner is at fault and no one can fire him.

I doubt many of these people would still be around if someone like Pegula owned the Habs. But Molson clearly doesn't care as long as Export is sold at the Bell Centre.

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05-15-2017, 07:59 AM
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HabsGorgeous
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It's time to let our current prospects develop at their own rate and not try to force square pegs in round holes.

Gainey/Timmins deserve to take criticism for the pour drafting and lack of draft picks in the 4 years prior to MB taking the GM job. This is the main reason why some think we are pour at developing NHL players. However, this will change once the 2012-2016 picks start filtering through the system. It' takes time for 17 year old drafted players to be NHL ready. That process usually takes 3 - 5 years from when they are drafted.

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05-15-2017, 08:07 AM
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If you compare the Habs drafting from 2008 to 2016 to the Ducks, Preds and Sens (somewhat the Pens too) it's clear why those teams are still alive in the playoffs.

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05-15-2017, 08:14 AM
  #5
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It seems to have gotten pretty stale. The philosophy needs to change and more time needs to be spent looking outside of NA and prioritizing the Habs backyard in the Q. Skill needs to become a priority, not character or toughness or intangibles. I'd be open to a change.

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05-15-2017, 08:16 AM
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WhiskeySeven
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We can blame the supposed lack of picks from 08-11 all we want but this team has developed nothing at all since that period either.

I only object to firing Timmins because I trust BargainBin's judgement considerably less.

Soon everyone will agree: we have the worst GM in the NHL. If you account for the unlimited budget, the zero pressure from ownership, the zero pressure to play entertaining hockey, the incrementally lowering expectations and standards, and the initial state he started off with I think you have to arrive at the same conclusion. The worst management in the NHL.

Sylvain Lefebvre isn't fired yet. He should've been fired after his first season. There is no accountability or standards in this organisation and a handful of corrupt bozos are profiting while the entire fanbase and team suffers.

Now might be a good time to try to post that article we found a month ago. It kept getting mysteriously erased.



And removing top5 picks...



The Habs are the worst drafting and developing team in the league.

There is no talent coming up, there is no talent coming in, there is no talent on display. We play a brutal brand of hockey, we squash skill and playmaking out of our players and then turn on them the minute they take a risk. We saw it happen with Subban, and this year with Galchenyuk. The GM would rather blame Beaulieu and Galchenyuk than his players - Jordie Benn, Dwight King and Andrew Shaw.

If you look at our top12 forwards all but three are grinders. Some are deluxe grinders, some are speedy grinders, some are regular grinders. The only ones with any discernible skill are Pacioretty who is an elite sniper, Radulov who can actually make plays, and Galchenyuk who is on his way out. This is pathetic.

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05-15-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
We can blame the supposed lack of picks from 08-11 all we want but this team has developed nothing at all since that period either.

I only object to firing Timmins because I trust BargainBin's judgement considerably less.

Soon everyone will agree: we have the worst GM in the NHL. If you account for the unlimited budget, the zero pressure from ownership, the zero pressure to play entertaining hockey, the incrementally lowering expectations and standards, and the initial state he started off with I think you have to arrive at the same conclusion. The worst management in the NHL.

Sylvain Lefebvre isn't fired yet. He should've been fired after his first season. There is no accountability or standards in this organisation and a handful of corrupt bozos are profiting while the entire fanbase and team suffers.

Now might be a good time to try to post that article we found a month ago. It kept getting mysteriously erased.

And removing top5 picks...



The Habs are the worst drafting and developing team in the league.
Would you be kind to re post the same stats but from 2012-2016 draft years? That would show us if your right or wrong about your statement that we have don't nothing since 2008-2011 where I agree we were terrible. I would say worse in the league which is why your "since 08" numbers are also bad.


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05-15-2017, 08:24 AM
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I'd say development is more of a problem than drafting. Timmins has a track record of good drafting. Lefebvre et al. have absolutely no track record of good development. And, strange enough, our problems with prospects seem to have started when Bergeving came in, not when Timmins did.

Not saying Timmins should be immune to criticism, but I'd definitely try to overhaul the development team before firing him.

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05-15-2017, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
We can blame the supposed lack of picks from 08-11 all we want but this team has developed nothing at all since that period either.

I only object to firing Timmins because I trust BargainBin's judgement considerably less.

Soon everyone will agree: we have the worst GM in the NHL. If you account for the unlimited budget, the zero pressure from ownership, the zero pressure to play entertaining hockey, the incrementally lowering expectations and standards, and the initial state he started off with I think you have to arrive at the same conclusion. The worst management in the NHL.

Sylvain Lefebvre isn't fired yet. He should've been fired after his first season. There is no accountability or standards in this organisation and a handful of corrupt bozos are profiting while the entire fanbase and team suffers.

Now might be a good time to try to post that article we found a month ago. It kept getting mysteriously erased.



And removing top5 picks...



The Habs are the worst drafting and developing team in the league.

There is no talent coming up, there is no talent coming in, there is no talent on display. We play a brutal brand of hockey, we squash skill and playmaking out of our players and then turn on them the minute they take a risk. We saw it happen with Subban, and this year with Galchenyuk. The GM would rather blame Beaulieu and Galchenyuk than his players - Jordie Benn, Dwight King and Andrew Shaw.

If you look at our top12 forwards all but three are grinders. Some are deluxe grinders, some are speedy grinders, some are regular grinders. The only ones with any discernible skill are Pacioretty who is an elite sniper, Radulov who can actually make plays, and Galchenyuk who is on his way out. This is pathetic.
I wonder is Geoff knows about this chart. Pretty revealing.

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05-15-2017, 08:26 AM
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Was hearing that Dorion dude from the Sens the other day and he was saying their drafting motto is: hockey sense, hockey sense and hockey sense.

It's seems Timmins is either unable or unwilling to do the same since we constantly end up with brain dead hockey players.

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05-15-2017, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Would you be kind to re post the same stats but from 2012-2016 draft years? That would show us if your right or wrong about your statement that we have don't nothing since 2008-2011 where I agree we were terrible. I would say worse in the league which is why your "since 08" numbers are also bad.
I didn't do the research, I simply found the piece. If you want to debate the merits of the timeframe, go for it with someone else who'd care. I don't see much of a difference between the later Gainey era and today. Same problems, different bozos - just today it is exasperated because BargainBin is bad in every aspect while Gainey wasn't as poor in development. 12-16 is somewhat too recent but off the top of my head I can name only two players who have stuck with the team under BargainBin, Lehkonen (who didn't develop in the AHL) and Galchenyuk who developed poorly. You can add bottom6er Andrighetto if you want. 3 players. And no one good coming in - Scherbak is as far as ever, McCarron looks like an inferior Brian Boyle (jee what a surprise), some fools still hang their hat on JDLR. What else is there? We have one of the worst prospect pools in our recent history. No one discernable, reliable talent coming up. I remember when I was in school and we'd talk about Grabovski or the younger Kostitsyn coming up, or how Higgins seemed like such a stud. It's a stark change and I'd say something needs to change but maybe it doesn't. Maybe this is what we deserve.

Mind editing your post so you don't quote a massive post immediately above yours? It clogs up the page.

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05-15-2017, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
I'd say development is more of a problem than drafting. Timmins has a track record of good drafting. Lefebvre et al. have absolutely no track record of good development. And, strange enough, our problems with prospects seem to have started when Bergeving came in, not when Timmins did.

Not saying Timmins should be immune to criticism, but I'd definitely try to overhaul the development team before firing him.
Our prospects actually made improvements from year to year under Gainey. We keep seeing the same old players year after year. Where's the advancement? Why are we seeing the same problems with our prospects persist as long as they're in contact with our farm team?

Bergevin called then Hamilton the road to Montreal. It's more like a road to Colorado these days after you've been traded for a Deutsche leaguer.

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05-15-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Was hearing that Dorion dude from the Sens the other day and he was saying their drafting motto is: hockey sense, hockey sense and hockey sense.

It's seems Timmins is either unable or unwilling to do the same since we constantly end up with brain dead hockey players.
Haven't you heard, brain dead potential 4th liners are the ONLY realistic targets in the later rounds!

I've been told by a former pro scout. Don't look for 5'10" talented players. These guys bust all the time. Instead, look for 6'2" talentless plugs and hope one in every five years manages to make the team sporadically on the 4th line. That's how it's done.

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05-15-2017, 08:34 AM
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WhiskeySeven
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Haven't you heard, brain dead potential 4th liners are the ONLY realistic targets in the later rounds!

I've been told by a former pro scout. Don't look for 5'10" talented players. These guys bust all the time. Instead, look for 6'2" talentless plugs and hope one in every five years manages to make the team sporadically on the 4th line. That's how it's done.
Last draft I got into some heated arguments about Clayton Keller. Some said he's too small, I argued that talent trumps everything.

This organisation likes big frames because they're so bad at developing players they'd rather cheat and force them in, like how McCarron is slotted in as a bottom6er now, than develop talent and actually instruct.

We had a good enough team, with good enough depth, that young players could afford to make mistakes and not cost the team. It was a great situation for the likes of Chucky, Eller, Gallagher, and Beaulieu (and Tinordi). Leblanc too. What happened? They played and signed the likes of Gonchar, Parros, Briere, and other nobodies instead of these youngsters. They benched Tinordi and Beaulieu in favour of Bouillon. Desharnais instead of Chucky. And then they wonder why these players stagnated and lost their way. And then they actually blame them.

We deserve this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
I wonder is Geoff knows about this chart. Pretty revealing.
Why would Molson know about this? Who does he have to instruct him? Who does BargainBin report to? Do you think a career 5th d-man and journeyman has the business sense to commit and abide by actual business function analysis? Do any of his buddies have that background? At least the Habs had Boivin before, who do they have now? Mellanby's fat head? Lapointe?

Last year Molson wrote a short essay saying no stone will be left unturned and the end result of that process was keeping Therrien, keeping Lefebvre, keeping BargainBin and his cronies and trading Subban. Oh and firing their analytics guy.

Molson doesn't care, he just raises ticket prices.

Toronto had their horrible dark period under Harold Ballard, now its our turn. This is the most hopeless Habs organisation I've ever seen. In the Karl Dykhuis era we had hope that the money would come back and right out ship. Where's the hope now? If we go down two goals, it's over. We spend to the cap and can't buy a goal. Can't draft or develop talent because we don't like or apply or even encourage talent. This team never learned how to ****ing pass the puck.


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05-15-2017, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Was hearing that Dorion dude from the Sens the other day and he was saying their drafting motto is: hockey sense, hockey sense and hockey sense.

It's seems Timmins is either unable or unwilling to do the same since we constantly end up with brain dead hockey players.
Dorion was with us before.

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05-15-2017, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Last draft I got into some heated arguments about Clayton Keller. Some said he's too small, I argued that talent trumps everything.

This organisation likes big frames because they're so bad at developing players they'd rather cheat and force them in, like how McCarron is slotted in as a bottom6er now, than develop talent and actually instruct.

We had a good enough team, with good enough depth, that young players could afford to make mistakes and not cost the team. It was a great situation for the likes of Chucky, Eller, Gallagher, and Beaulieu (and Tinordi). Leblanc too. What happened? They played and signed the likes of Gonchar, Parros, Briere, and other nobodies instead of these youngsters. They benched Tinordi and Beaulieu in favour of Bouillon. Desharnais instead of Chucky. And then they wonder why these players stagnated and lost their way. And then they actually blame them.

We deserve this.
Keller was my absolute favorite last year. I'm on record saying I would have picked him 4th overall. In hindsight I might even pick him ahead of Puju.

But I'm not a prospect guru by any means. I don't watch a ton of junior hockey and I rely mostly on what I read of them and what I can see on youtube, so I won't pretend I'm a reference in that regard.

But my point is, it's all about the philosophy a team has going into a draft. For me, it's talent first. In every friggin' rounds. I can't wrap my head around the fact some people genuinely feel using picks on "potential 4th liners" is the best use we can make of our assets, no matter how late the pick may be, when you can get finished products on the trade market for these same late picks at every deadline, assuming you even need to trade for these guys. They're a dime a dozen every summer and most only relish the opportunity of even signing a pro contract. You don't NEED to develop these guys. You don't NEED to spend assets trying to develop these guys. Developing 4th liners with late picks doesn't make you a good drafting team either. It makes you stupid and a poor asset manager, as far as I'm concerned.

That 5'9" 4th rounder called Arvidsson sure looks good right about now. And it's not like we don't look for these guys every once in a while. Mete was an amazing 4th round pick for us. Hudon was a great 5th round pick. Ghetto ended up being a great 3rd round pick too, even though he was mismanaged at the NHL level.

I think the last time we went talent 1st at almost every turn is 2012, the one draft where Timmins was reportedly in charge. In hindsight, a lot of these guys didn't turn out as expected, but I much rather give a try to talented players than players with size and not much else.

After 2012, we entered "reactionary mode" it seems. We got tossed around against Ottawa in the playoffs that year, and we went out and drafted McCarron in the 1st and DLR with our first 2nd round pick. And Crisp in the 3rd round.

Turns out our two best picks from that year are the "talented small guys" in Lehkonen (4th player picked) and Andrighetto (6th player picked). Reway looked good until injuries derailed his career.

I just don't know how much control Timmins has over the whole situation at this point. He's still the head scout, but I wouldn't exactly be surprised if Bergevin established some guidelines. It'd be logical to do so, anyway. At the end of the day, it's not like we don't give a shot to those talented players every now and then, even late in the draft, but one pick spent on a grinder is one too many.

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05-15-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Last draft I got into some heated arguments about Clayton Keller. Some said he's too small, I argued that talent trumps everything.

This organisation likes big frames because they're so bad at developing players they'd rather cheat and force them in, like how McCarron is slotted in as a bottom6er now, than develop talent and actually instruct.

We had a good enough team, with good enough depth, that young players could afford to make mistakes and not cost the team. It was a great situation for the likes of Chucky, Eller, Gallagher, and Beaulieu (and Tinordi). Leblanc too. What happened? They played and signed the likes of Gonchar, Parros, Briere, and other nobodies instead of these youngsters. They benched Tinordi and Beaulieu in favour of Bouillon. Desharnais instead of Chucky. And then they wonder why these players stagnated and lost their way. And then they actually blame them.

We deserve this.
We do.

I have a pet theory. The best teams don't just get the most talented players, they manufacture the best players with the talent that they've got. There's only so many world beaters and you can't control where or when they happen. But in different leagues around the world where money isn't really a defining issue (Liiga, for example), the same teams are always at the top, and always produce the best talent. Oulu, in particular, in butt**** nowhere near the arctic circle is in clear second in Liiga history, well ahead of Helsinki. Tampere Tappara are in clear first. Is it because they're just so much more bloody talented in Tampere than Helsinki or Espoo?

I don't think that's it. I think they see a big player who can shoot the puck, like Laine, in their system and say ''alright, we can work with him.'' And they polish their players until they're fine jewels.

We just tell our youngsters that they've got things to learn and that they'll never be scorers at the next level before trading them for n-th league trash.

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05-15-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
Haven't you heard, brain dead potential 4th liners are the ONLY realistic targets in the later rounds!

I've been told by a former pro scout. Don't look for 5'10" talented players. These guys bust all the time. Instead, look for 6'2" talentless plugs and hope one in every five years manages to make the team sporadically on the 4th line. That's how it's done.
Fans will be fans...

Draft small player = OMG WE'RE SMURFS
Draft big player = OMG WE'RE SLOW AND DUMB

Wheel keeps on turning.

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05-15-2017, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Last draft I got into some heated arguments about Clayton Keller. Some said he's too small, I argued that talent trumps everything.

This organisation likes big frames because they're so bad at developing players they'd rather cheat and force them in, like how McCarron is slotted in as a bottom6er now, than develop talent and actually instruct.

We had a good enough team, with good enough depth, that young players could afford to make mistakes and not cost the team. It was a great situation for the likes of Chucky, Eller, Gallagher, and Beaulieu (and Tinordi). Leblanc too. What happened? They played and signed the likes of Gonchar, Parros, Briere, and other nobodies instead of these youngsters. They benched Tinordi and Beaulieu in favour of Bouillon. Desharnais instead of Chucky. And then they wonder why these players stagnated and lost their way. And then they actually blame them.

We deserve this.


Why would Molson know about this? Who does he have to instruct him? Who does BargainBin report to? Do you think a career 5th d-man and journeyman has the business sense to commit and abide by actual business function analysis? Do any of his buddies have that background? At least the Habs had Boivin before, who do they have now? Mellanby's fat head? Lapointe?

Last year Molson wrote a short essay saying no stone will be left unturned and the end result of that process was keeping Therrien, keeping Lefebvre, keeping BargainBin and his cronies and trading Subban. Oh and firing their analytics guy.

Molson doesn't care, he just raises ticket prices.

Toronto had their horrible dark period under Harold Ballard, now its our turn. This is the most hopeless Habs organisation I've ever seen. In the Karl Dykhuis era we had hope that the money would come back and right out ship. Where's the hope now? If we go down two goals, it's over. We spend to the cap and can't buy a goal. Can't draft or develop talent because we don't like or apply or even encourage talent. This team never learned how to ****ing pass the puck.
I do believe, like you, that the organization needs a real president. Someone with stature, and with the background to manage a corporation. People spat a lot on Boivin on this forum during his years, but Pierre Boivin was a real administrator. He knew how to structure a business model. And the Habs flourished like they had never flourished financially under him. Plus, we had hope for better things.

Geoff should leave his job and find another Boivin. This is where a BriseBois could do the job.

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05-15-2017, 08:55 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
I didn't do the research, I simply found the piece. If you want to debate the merits of the timeframe, go for it with someone else who'd care. I don't see much of a difference between the later Gainey era and today. Same problems, different bozos - just today it is exasperated because BargainBin is bad in every aspect while Gainey wasn't as poor in development. 12-16 is somewhat too recent but off the top of my head I can name only two players who have stuck with the team under BargainBin, Lehkonen (who didn't develop in the AHL) and Galchenyuk who developed poorly. You can add bottom6er Andrighetto if you want. 3 players. And no one good coming in - Scherbak is as far as ever, McCarron looks like an inferior Brian Boyle (jee what a surprise), some fools still hang their hat on JDLR. What else is there? We have one of the worst prospect pools in our recent history. No one discernable, reliable talent coming up. I remember when I was in school and we'd talk about Grabovski or the younger Kostitsyn coming up, or how Higgins seemed like such a stud. It's a stark change and I'd say something needs to change but maybe it doesn't. Maybe this is what we deserve. .
It takes 3-5 years for 17 year old draft picks to develop.

2008:
- 56, 86, 116, 138, 206 overall picks.
- No NHL players drafted.

2009:
- 18, 65, 79, 109, 139, 169, 199, 211 overall picks
- No NHL players drafted. Leblanc was a bust in the 1st round. Did we develop him poorly or was he just a bad pick?

2010:
- 22, 113, 117, 147, 207 overall picks.
- Gallagher at 147 overall in the 5th round is the only NHL player drafted. Tinordi was a bust in the 1st round. Did we develop him poorly or was he just a bad pick?

2011:
- 17, 97, 108, 113, 138, 168, 198 overall picks
- Beaulieu at 17th overall is the only NHL player drafted.

4 years before MB as GM and only 2 NHL players (Gallagher and Beaulieu).

2012:
- 3, 33, 51, 64, 94, 122, 154 overall picks
- Galchenyuk and Hudon (122 overall in the 5th round). Hudon is NHL ready and Galchenyuk is a 30 goal scorer in the NHL.
- Not a bad draft but certainly not a great draft with the two 2nd round picks. However, who did we develop poorly?

2013:
- 25, 34, 36, 55, 71, 86, 116, 176 overall picks
- McCarron, DLR, Lehkonen, Ghetto all NHL payers.
- Fucale, Reway, Gregoire have not made the NHL yet but not written off yet.
- Who have we developed poorly?
- Very solid draft year for the Habs!

2014:
- 26, 73, 125, 147, 177, 207 overall picks
- Scherbak, Lernout, Audette, Hawkey. There may be none who become NHL players but looks like 2 have a legit shot. Scherbak and Hawkey.
- Who have we developed poorly?

2015
- 26, 87, 131, 177, 207 overall picks
- Very early but looks like we got a solid future D in Juulsen.
- Too early to tell with Vejdemo, Bradley, Bourque, Addison but I suspect none of these guys make any NHL impact.

2016:
- 9, 70, 100, 124, 160, 187
- Sergachev. Enough said
- Bitten, Mete. Way way too early to tell

5 years after MB as GM and were going to have way more than just 2 NHL players... And it's way to early to tell with several prospects. Anybody not willing to admit that the 4 years of drafting from 2008-2011 had a major impact on our prospects and ability to produce NHL players or use in trades to improve our roster are blind! It's taken MB 5 years to re-build the prospect pool. It's not the best of the league because of where we have drafted but it's not the worse. Were top 10 (+/-) IMO.


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05-15-2017, 09:04 AM
  #21
WhiskeySeven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
2012:
- 3, 33, 51, 64, 94, 122, 154 overall picks
- Galchenyuk and Hudon (122 overall in the 5th round). Hudon is NHL ready and Galchenyuk is a 30 goal scorer in the NHL.
- Not a bad draft but certainly not a great draft with the two 2nd round picks. However, who did we develop poorly?

2013:
- 25, 34, 36, 55, 71, 86, 116, 176 overall picks
- McCarron, DLR, Lehkonen, Ghetto all NHL payers.
- Fucale, Reway, Gregoire have not made the NHL yet but not written off yet.
- Who have we developed poorly?
- Very solid draft year for the Habs!

2014:
- 26, 73, 125, 147, 177, 207 overall picks
- Scherbak, Lernout, Audette, Hawkey. There may be none who become NHL players but looks like 2 have a legit shot. Scherbak and Hawkey.
- Who have we developed poorly?

2015
- 26, 87, 131, 177, 207 overall picks
- Very early but looks like we got a solid future D in Juulsen.
- Too early to tell with Vejdemo, Bradley, Bourque, Addison but I suspect none of these guys make any NHL impact.

2016:
- 9, 70, 100, 124, 160, 187
- Sergachev. Enough said
- Bitten, Mete. Way way too early to tell

5 years after MB as GM and were going to have way more than just 2 NHL players... And it's way to early to tell with several prospects. Anybody not willing to admit that the 4 years of drafting from 2008-2011 had a major impact on our prospects are blind!
2012 - Chucky and then nothing. It's been 5 years and Hudon is not in the NHL. If he makes the team next year, and if Radulov remains, Hudon will have a diminished role. Chucky just started the playoffs on the 4th line and was openly blamed for the series loss. He was poorly developed.

I noticed this and pointed it out THREE years ago, fyi.

2013 - DLR is not an NHLer, why are you saying he is? He's not in the NHL, he was not in the NHL last year, he is on the outside looking in next year. Why do you count him? McCarron isn't an established NHLer either. Lehkonen is the one NHLer we have, yes. Ghetto was traded for a non-NHLer - so either he was poorly handled by the Habs or poorly valued. Neither are feathers in BargainBin's cap.

2014 - Lernout, Audette, and Hawkey are nobodies as it stands. Scherbak has trended down and has been poorly developed. Yes injuries are an excuse, too bad.

2015 - Juulsen has concussion issues but looks like a solid top4 d-man. Let's hope. I like Vejdemo, but the rest are nobodies.

2016 - Sergachev had an up and down year. Who knows how he'll trend.

As for the 08-11 draftees, they were still developed under this regime and still (almost entirely) all failed. If Lefebvre is staying, what do you have to say about that?

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05-15-2017, 09:07 AM
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Et le But
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I don't blame Timmins - the development team has been a disaster, and completely unaccountable as it is made up of Bergevin's hockey buddies, plus we are typically a treadmill team with low first round picks and a habit of trading mid round picks for plugs.

However Timmins has made some pretty significant first round blunders, most notably Leblanc and Tinordi, while Scherbak doesn't appear to have the hockey IQ to be an NHL player. I wouldn't mind cleaning house completely, but as long as Bergevin is involved and is going to leave our prospect in the hands of whatever meathead 4th liners and bottom pairing defenders he hung out with in the 90s, it's all futile anyway.

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05-15-2017, 09:18 AM
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Lebowski
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Originally Posted by Boulette Canon View Post
Fans will be fans...

Draft small player = OMG WE'RE SMURFS
Draft big player = OMG WE'RE SLOW AND DUMB

Wheel keeps on turning.
I want skill. Whether it's in a player under 6 feet or not, I couldn't careless.

Also, maybe I'm not one of those fans that complained we were smurfs? Small players aren't an issue if they're good. A smurf like Desharnais on the 1st line was bad because he wasn't good enough.

I didn't think I'd have to spell it out.

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05-15-2017, 09:19 AM
  #24
HabsGorgeous
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
2012 - Chucky and then nothing. It's been 5 years and Hudon is not in the NHL. If he makes the team next year, and if Radulov remains, Hudon will have a diminished role. Chucky just started the playoffs on the 4th line and was openly blamed for the series loss. He was poorly developed.

I noticed this and pointed it out THREE years ago, fyi.

2013 - DLR is not an NHLer, why are you saying he is? He's not in the NHL, he was not in the NHL last year, he is on the outside looking in next year. Why do you count him? McCarron isn't an established NHLer either. Lehkonen is the one NHLer we have, yes. Ghetto was traded for a non-NHLer - so either he was poorly handled by the Habs or poorly valued. Neither are feathers in BargainBin's cap.

2014 - Lernout, Audette, and Hawkey are nobodies as it stands. Scherbak has trended down and has been poorly developed. Yes injuries are an excuse, too bad.

2015 - Juulsen has concussion issues but looks like a solid top4 d-man. Let's hope. I like Vejdemo, but the rest are nobodies.

2016 - Sergachev had an up and down year. Who knows how he'll trend.

As for the 08-11 draftees, they were still developed under this regime and still (almost entirely) all failed. If Lefebvre is staying, what do you have to say about that?
Seriously? Your so negative it's not funny. Two major points you need to get real with.

1) 2008-2011 draft years (4 years before MB) put a major anchor on our ability to develop future NHL players or trade assets to acquire the center we desperately needed!

2) 2012-2016 draft years were much much much better and it's still early yet on several prospects. In this draft year span, the Habs are a solid top 10 (+/-) in prospect rankings compared to all other NHL teams. Were just not in the same boat as the Oilers, Leafs, Sabres, Coyotes, Jets, Cans, etc.

You think Hudon = Leblanc. Let me show you why you are wrong and this is just one example.

Hudon:
- AHL: 0.78 pts/game in 207 games
- NHL: 4pts in 6 games playing 4th line minutes

Leblanc:
- AHL: 0.41 pts/game in 234 games
- NHL: 10 pts in 50 games.

Hudon > Leblanc. Hudon has very very good #'s in the AHL. He's NHL ready! Plekanec played 233 AHL games and Hudon has very similar #'s. Why does everybody think Hudon is a bust? Because we have no room on our roster for him? That's dumb


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05-15-2017, 09:24 AM
  #25
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For the people who want to fire the scouting/development staff, how many of you actually have confidence that Bergevin will hire good people?

Personally I have 0 faith in Bergevin hiring competent scouts/development people. So there's little point in replacing Timmins (Who I think is good) since in all likelyhood the replacement will be worse. On the flip side I do support replacing Sly because it's almost impossible to get someone worse.

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