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Time for a Drafting and Development Change

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Old
05-15-2017, 09:26 AM
  #26
Et le But
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
I want skill. Whether it's in a player under 6 feet or not, I couldn't careless.

Also, maybe I'm not one of those fans that complained we were smurfs? Small players aren't an issue if they're good. A smurf like Desharnais on the 1st line was bad because he wasn't good enough.

I didn't think I'd have to spell it out.
One of the reasons to want tall players is that height gives you certain advantages when combined with skill - for one thing, it lets you see over smaller players, it also typically means more strength which means better puck protection and ability to win battles. You don't need to be tall to be an elite center - just ask Crosby, but it's why the 1C most Habs fans want would probably be tall. Take a guy like Patrice Bergeron, he's not huge by any means but if he was even 5'11" instead of 6'2" he wouldn't be the same possession beast - he'd probably still be good, but a very different player.

But this is also why falling in love with size for size's sake is stupid, for every Shea Weber who actually uses his size to be effective, you get dozens of Jared Tinordi or Dwight King type figures who are just there to be tall and waste space while small, skilled guys like Viktor Arvidsson and Paul Byron have to do everything to make the league.

For those of us who don't care about size but want a more skilled team, the reality is the type of players we need will have size, but size AND skill, because the latter is the part that is actually important.

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05-15-2017, 09:30 AM
  #27
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Anyone noticed that Sly's been with the Bulldogs/Icecaps for 5 years and hasn't moved on to an NHL job?

Boucher was with us for 2 years before getting snapped up. In fact, he had two different head coaching job offers.

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05-15-2017, 09:32 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
One of the reasons to want tall players is that height gives you certain advantages when combined with skill - for one thing, it lets you see over smaller players, it also typically means more strength which means better puck protection and ability to win battles. You don't need to be tall to be an elite center - just ask Crosby, but it's why the 1C most Habs fans want would probably be tall. Take a guy like Patrice Bergeron, he's not huge by any means but if he was even 5'11" instead of 6'2" he wouldn't be the same possession beast - he'd probably still be good, but a very different player.

But this is also why falling in love with size for size's sake is stupid, for every Shea Weber who actually uses his size to be effective, you get dozens of Jared Tinordi or Dwight King type figures who are just there to be tall and waste space while small, skilled guys like Viktor Arvidsson and Paul Byron have to do everything to make the league.

For those of us who don't care about size but want a more skilled team, the reality is the type of players we need will have size, but size AND skill, because the latter is the part that is actually important.
I'm not saying size isn't important. It is. It's an added bonus, not the main thing you should be looking for.

Talented players with size falling in the later rounds are incredibly rare. Jamie Benns don't come around all that often. And that's because big players with talent are targeted very early in the draft, for good reasons.

However, small talented players, sometime as talented if not more than some of the big guys drafted in the 1st round, will often fall. That's when you can hit homeruns later in the draft. It's just a lot more likely to find a core contributor in the later rounds aiming for talent regardless of size, than it is when you look for size above all else.

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05-15-2017, 09:32 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
One of the reasons to want tall players is that height gives you certain advantages when combined with skill - for one thing, it lets you see over smaller players, it also typically means more strength which means better puck protection and ability to win battles. You don't need to be tall to be an elite center - just ask Crosby, but it's why the 1C most Habs fans want would probably be tall. Take a guy like Patrice Bergeron, he's not huge by any means but if he was even 5'11" instead of 6'2" he wouldn't be the same possession beast - he'd probably still be good, but a very different player.

But this is also why falling in love with size for size's sake is stupid, for every Shea Weber who actually uses his size to be effective, you get dozens of Jared Tinordi or Dwight King type figures who are just there to be tall and waste space while small, skilled guys like Viktor Arvidsson and Paul Byron have to do everything to make the league.

For those of us who don't care about size but want a more skilled team, the reality is the type of players we need will have size, but size AND skill, because the latter is the part that is actually important.
It's no secrete to any scout that players who have both size and skill are drafted early. Also, It's a game of skill and if you have the skating go go along with it, your going to be great no matter what size you have.

Problem with the Habs is we don't have size, skating, and skill at center. You need your centers to be able to skate and win puck battles 1st and foremost and size helps! If they have skill to go along with it, you then have a top 2 center!

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05-15-2017, 09:33 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Seriously? Your so negative it's not funny. Two major points you need to get real with.

1) 2008-2011 draft years (4 years before MB) put a major anchor on our ability to develop future NHL players or trade assets to acquire the center we desperately needed!

2) 2012-2016 draft years were much much much better and it's still early yet on several prospects. In this draft year span, the Habs are a solid top 10 (+/-) in prospect rankings compared to all other NHL teams. Were just not in the same boat as the Oilers, Leafs, Sabres, Coyotes, Jets, Cans, etc.

You think Hudon = Leblanc. Let me show you why you are wrong and this is just one example.

Hudon:
- AHL: 0.78 pts/game in 207 games
- NHL: 4pts in 6 games playing 4th line minutes

Leblanc:
- AHL: 0.41 pts/game in 234 games
- NHL: 10 pts in 50 games.

Hudon > Leblanc. Hudon has very very good #'s in the AHL. He's NHL ready!
Bergevin and his hires had a major impact on the prospects developed between 09-11. So even though he didn't draft them he certainly influenced their development.

Leblanc had 22 points in 31 AHL games (0.71 ppg) and 10 points in 42 NHL games. He looked like a very promising prospect when Bergevin took over. It then all went down the crapper, and we can point to specific things the new AHL coaching staff did that clearly hurt his development like playing him on the third line with no PP/PK time because that's what his role in the NHL would be.

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05-15-2017, 09:34 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Seriously? Your so negative it's not funny. Two major points you need to get real with.

1) 2008-2011 draft years (4 years before MB) put a major anchor on our ability to develop future NHL players or trade assets to acquire the center we desperately needed!
That's 10-7 years ago. Get over it.

Quote:
2) 2012-2016 draft years were much much much better and it's still early yet on several prospects. In this draft year span, the Habs are a solid top 10 (+/-) in prospect rankings compared to all other NHL teams. Were just not in the same boat as the Oilers, Leafs, Sabres, Coyotes, Jets, Cans, etc
You say they're better, I say prove it. DJLR and Audette are not NHLers. Neither is Hudon.

Quote:
You think Hudon = Leblanc. Let me show you why you are wrong and this is just one example.

Hudon:
- AHL: 0.78 pts/game in 207 games
- NHL: 4pts in 6 games playing 4th line minutes

Leblanc:
- AHL: 0.41 pts/game in 234 games
- NHL: 10 pts in 50 games.

Hudon > Leblanc. Hudon has very very good #'s in the AHL. He's NHL ready! Plekanec played 233 AHL games and Hudon has very similar #'s. Why does everybody think Hudon is a bust? Because we have no room on our roster for him? That's dumb
I never said Hudon = Leblanc. I liked LEblanc, I had friends who played with him and they said all the right things about him. I maintain he was poorly developed, not poorly drafted.

That doesn't mean Hudon is in the NHL. He's played 6 games. He could play half of next season and still not be an established NHLer. It's been five years since he's been drafted and he's not in the NHL. Stop lying.

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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
For those of us who don't care about size but want a more skilled team, the reality is the type of players we need will have size, but size AND skill, because the latter is the part that is actually important.
Skill, then Size, and then Character. That's the order it should be done. We've gone the opposite way.

Once we have enough skill, we can afford to lose a bit for size, and then if we fail in the playoffs or come short (like the Sharks and Caps) we can deal with the supposed character issue.

As it stands we have an averaged sized, gutless team with no skill. Well-sized in the scrubs and smurf or non-physical core players.

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05-15-2017, 09:36 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Lebowski View Post
I'm not saying size isn't important. It is. It's an added bonus, not the main thing you should be looking for.

Talented players with size falling in the later rounds are incredibly rare. Jamie Benns don't come around all that often. And that's because big players with talent are targeted very early in the draft, for good reasons.

However, small talented players, sometime as talented if not more than some of the big guys drafted in the 1st round, will often fall. That's when you can hit homeruns later in the draft. It's just a lot more likely to find a core contributor in the later rounds aiming for talent regardless of size, than it is when you look for size above all else.
Yeah, there is a reason most of the later round steals are small guys. Guys like Connor Crisp don't magically develop talent.

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05-15-2017, 09:39 AM
  #33
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Yes, I do believe that this organization needs a drafting and development overhaul. I've written about this many times. If you listen back to Bergevin's first press conference, where he outlined his priorities as a GM, all of them were related to drafting and developing. I had liked some early moves, like getting some scouts back in the Q, getting some pretty solid names from the scouting world for the OHL and the WHL, and having some 'Claude Ruel-types' to nurture the kids.

Looking at it today: he failed to deliver on his promises. He traded numerous draft choices for some band aid solutions; although he added some Q scouts, his VP Timmins still isn't too fond of the league (his drafting record in the Q is weak as hell, dating back to the late 2000's); his development squad has failed in the minors; I will give a pass to Martin Lapointe, as I don't know if he's doing a good job or not, but his role should be crucial, just like Ruel's was.

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05-15-2017, 09:50 AM
  #34
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I do believe, like you, that the organization needs a real president. Someone with stature, and with the background to manage a corporation. People spat a lot on Boivin on this forum during his years, but Pierre Boivin was a real administrator. He knew how to structure a business model. And the Habs flourished like they had never flourished financially under him. Plus, we had hope for better things.

Geoff should leave his job and find another Boivin. This is where a BriseBois could do the job.
Finding another Boivin would be very bad.

Boivin was great at the marketing and business side of running a team but he knew nothing about hockey. He simply could not hire competent guys to manage the team because he did not know what made a guy competent.

If you want to hire Boivin then you need 2 president. 1 to take care of the marketing and business and another to take care of hockey.

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05-15-2017, 09:52 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Boulette Canon View Post
Fans will be fans...

Draft small player = OMG WE'RE SMURFS
Draft big player = OMG WE'RE SLOW AND DUMB

Wheel keeps on turning.
Thing is, I am absolutely fine if the BPA is a small player. It's about complimenting these players, so if you got a smaller forward up front, put a bigger winger or two with him. It helps of course if those wingers have some talent.

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05-15-2017, 10:03 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
That's 10-7 years ago. Get over it.
2008-2011 was 6-9 years ago (2017/2018 season hasn't started yet). If we drafted better, we would have more guys like Gallagher and Beaulieu's age. Still think it doesn't have no impact? I think you need to open your eyes.

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05-15-2017, 10:04 AM
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Thing is, I am absolutely fine if the BPA is a small player. It's about complimenting these players, so if you got a smaller forward up front, put a bigger winger or two with him. It helps of course if those wingers have some talent.
Thing is, you can have a line of three small forwards that will outplay a line of three big forwards (or insert any size combination) and win that matchup any given night.

I don't care about size one bit. I care about talent, hockey sense, IQ and competitiveness.

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05-15-2017, 10:09 AM
  #38
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I never said Hudon = Leblanc. I liked LEblanc, I had friends who played with him and they said all the right things about him. I maintain he was poorly developed, not poorly drafted.

That doesn't mean Hudon is in the NHL. He's played 6 games. He could play half of next season and still not be an established NHLer. It's been five years since he's been drafted and he's not in the NHL. Stop lying.
Well your trying to paint the "we suck" at drafting and developing picture. I'm saying your 100% wrong and have shown you several examples why. If you said that in specfic to the 2008-2011 draft years, I would 100% agree with you. However, I do not agree with you about the 2012-2016 draft years.

Hudon has great AHL and NHL numbers. You may be right he's not going to make the NHL as a regular player for years to come, But your fighting probability (not me). Last season Hudon = Lehkonen in prospect rankings. Many fans thought these guys were close in talent. Lehkonen made the team because he was back overseas if he didn't and he flourish with his opportunity. Hudon has 4 pts in 6 games so far.

Why do you think Hudon was poorly developed again?

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05-15-2017, 10:17 AM
  #39
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This could be a Timmins or Gauthier or Churla or Lapointe or etc... rant but there is no point. They are all guilty as charged. We could blame Therrien but in the end a coach's job is to win games not develop players (he isn't here anyways). Has anybody checked out our drafting and development over the last 15-20 years? And we all want to trade away our only successful drafted players (Price, Galchenyuk, Price, Beaulieu)? Take a look for yourself, terrible drafting bordering on clueless. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00006929.html It started way before the current adminsitration and it just kept going.

We have to get better scouts. Player development is another weakness. If you look at the successful teams Chicago, Pittsburgh, Anaheim, Nashville, Ottawa and now Toronto, Calgary and Edmonton we don't develop any of our prospects. Maybe they aren't that good to start but that's on scouting. For years we missed out on Russia, the it was Sweden, the US and now it looks like Finland is the next hockey power. Switzerland is up and coming. At least we are scounting the OHL, WHL and QMJHL better. But we're missing out on the US High School ranks.
I've being saying so for a while... but the media seem to focus on Bergevin.

The problem is clearly at the level of scouting and development.

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05-15-2017, 10:24 AM
  #40
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Finding another Boivin would be very bad.

Boivin was great at the marketing and business side of running a team but he knew nothing about hockey. He simply could not hire competent guys to manage the team because he did not know what made a guy competent.

If you want to hire Boivin then you need 2 president. 1 to take care of the marketing and business and another to take care of hockey.
Then Geoff can keep the markting and business side of it. Give the President Hockey Operations job to BriseBois already.

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05-15-2017, 10:29 AM
  #41
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I've being saying so for a while... but the media seem to focus on Bergevin.

The problem is clearly at the level of scouting and development.
The problem is everywhere but BargainBin is the one in charge so all the crap has to roll up to his feet.

Bad development? Why did he hire Lapointe and Lefebvre?
Bad NHL results? Why did he not fire Therrien?
Bad drafting? Why did he not fire Timmins/ why did he hire that other scout Churla?
Bad trades? Why is his proscouting department so damn bad?

The media should focus on all of BargainBin's problems, yes, but he's definitely the one to blame for everything.

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05-15-2017, 10:31 AM
  #42
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What exactly is the purpose of Lapointe? What has he contributed? What were his ties to the Habs, and his experience, that made him the right job candidate?

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05-15-2017, 10:33 AM
  #43
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Then Geoff can keep the markting and business side of it. Give the President Hockey Operations job to BriseBois already.
You have to think that Brisebois would be more interested in a GM job first.

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05-15-2017, 10:35 AM
  #44
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Bergevin and his hires had a major impact on the prospects developed between 09-11. So even though he didn't draft them he certainly influenced their development.

Leblanc had 22 points in 31 AHL games (0.71 ppg) and 10 points in 42 NHL games. He looked like a very promising prospect when Bergevin took over. It then all went down the crapper, and we can point to specific things the new AHL coaching staff did that clearly hurt his development like playing him on the third line with no PP/PK time because that's what his role in the NHL would be.
Google when MB was hired (hint: Answer is 2012). Draft years from 2008-2011 fall on Gainey and Timmins. Lack of picks and bad picks. It was terrible and put an anchor on our ability to improve our roster for many seasons after that. We are only now starting to see the prospects under the new era of drafting by MB/TT make the roster.

Galchenyuk was easy. 3rd overall pick and was the best of his draft year so far.

Lehkonen made an impact last year.

MacCarron, Hudon, DLR will make impacts this year. Maybe Sergachev too!

Juulsen, Scherbak the year after.

I'm not saying the drafting has been excellent in the last 5 years. I'm just saying it's been very solid and were actually generating NHL players instead of the 2 in the 4 years prior under BG/TT

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05-15-2017, 10:36 AM
  #45
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You have to think that Brisebois would be more interested in a GM job first.
I've said before but I doubt that the Habs would hire him. Geoff Molson is looking for someone with charisma and assertiveness after the Pierre Gauthier fiasco. Bergevin has an alpha-male body type with broad shoulders, wide triceps, and a deep voice, people like being obedient to him and that insulates the Habs from criticism. Bergevin can make a lot of mistakes and still have followers. It's not people's natural instinct to think he's a failure.

In contrast, this is Julien Brisebois:


Circling back to Bergevin, I've said it before but if he had any brains at all he would be getting offers from the Parti Quebecois at this point, he's extremely good at PR.

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05-15-2017, 10:48 AM
  #46
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^^

Which is not to say that I don't believe in Julien Brisebois. Based on what I've read about him he might do very well as a GM -- in a market where being GM is about smarts, wisdom, and planning rather than doing PR. Everybody has their strengths. Relative to one another, Brisebois is smarter and wiser than Bergevin, but Bergevin is more dominant-looking and more charismatic.

Brisebois has a better shot at being a GM with a franchise looking to build and develop by winning games, and where the expected face of the franchise will likely be whoever the top goal scorer happens to be.

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05-15-2017, 10:49 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I've said before but I doubt that the Habs would hire him. Geoff Molson is looking for someone with charisma and assertiveness after the Pierre Gauthier fiasco. Bergevin has an alpha-male body type with broad shoulders, wide triceps, and a deep voice, people like being obedient to him and that insulates the Habs from criticism. Bergevin can make a lot of mistakes and still have followers. It's not people's natural instinct to think he's a failure.

In contrast, this is Julien Brisebois:


Circling back to Bergevin, I've said it before but if he had any brains at all he would be getting offers from the Parti Quebecois at this point, he's extremely good at PR.
Good post!

Also, I can just imagine how JB would look after 5 years on the job.... surly a bit of grey hair and no smile right?

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05-15-2017, 11:00 AM
  #48
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I don't blame Timmins - the development team has been a disaster, and completely unaccountable as it is made up of Bergevin's hockey buddies, plus we are typically a treadmill team with low first round picks and a habit of trading mid round picks for plugs.

However Timmins has made some pretty significant first round blunders, most notably Leblanc and Tinordi, while Scherbak doesn't appear to have the hockey IQ to be an NHL player. I wouldn't mind cleaning house completely, but as long as Bergevin is involved and is going to leave our prospect in the hands of whatever meathead 4th liners and bottom pairing defenders he hung out with in the 90s, it's all futile anyway.
Add kots fischer and chipchura to the list.

Serge might turn out to be a great D man but 4 Cs taken after him. Habs will regret that as one of those Cs will become a top 6.

HABS should of traded down in 2013. Macs talent was overvalued and probably would of beeb available 10 picks later. Or worse off we take Hartman instead.

Fire Sly but our scouts have a knack of taking the wrong players all they time. The real talents will spend limited time in the AHL anyways. Bl

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05-15-2017, 11:03 AM
  #49
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Molson doesn't care, he just raises ticket prices.
Molson lets the team spend to the max, he's paying two coaches right now while spending $5 million on our current head coach.

He allowed our GM to trade away our most marketable player and for our GM to take on a guy who got paid $12 million in actual dollars this past year in that trade... he's keeping his head out of hockey decisions and giving his GM the dollars to spend, Molson isn't the problem.

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05-15-2017, 11:04 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Bergevin and his hires had a major impact on the prospects developed between 09-11. So even though he didn't draft them he certainly influenced their development.

Leblanc had 22 points in 31 AHL games (0.71 ppg) and 10 points in 42 NHL games. He looked like a very promising prospect when Bergevin took over. It then all went down the crapper, and we can point to specific things the new AHL coaching staff did that clearly hurt his development like playing him on the third line with no PP/PK time because that's what his role in the NHL would be.
Or more like leblanc was more concerned with what his gf said than going to the gym.

Wow 10 points ! I guess Ghetto is the next Gretzky. TT also took Fischer and Chipchura and Kotstitsyn. More of his 1st rounders bust than make it. Take out 2007 and he isnt that impressive at all.

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