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Time for a Drafting and Development Change

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Old
05-18-2017, 07:39 PM
  #476
Talks to Goalposts
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
I wouldn't call Tangradi and Bowman AHL stars. And Tangradi played only 48 games that year.

Well, that's the problem with that D they're all stay at home D's with close to zero offensive flare.

When Boucher coached that team he had PK who got 53 points, Benoit 36 points and Weber with 32.
That's not really fair. PK Subban was a top pairing level NHL defenseman playing in the AHL for seasoning purposes and ran over the entire league that year. No AHL coach should expect to have that in their roster.

The broader point that the AHL team has largely lacked for good offensive defensemen is accurate though. Barbario was the only guy who was well suited to be an AHL #1 they've had.

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05-18-2017, 07:54 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Speaking as someone with a PhD, an impressive one at that, I'm uncomfortable with criticizing Bergevin's lack of education. I know that there are smart people who never went to university, and some who went there, coasted, got B'S and C's, and don't know much at all. In the case of hockey players, they dedicate their lives to university, their major is CHL/AHL and that's what they learn. Some might end up really smart otherwise. For people with athletic talent, it's actually smart to focus on athletics at the expense of formal education.

What concerns me with Bergevin is not the lack of paper to his name. I'm sure that he could have gone to Concordia and got a 2.72/4.00 in marketing studies if that had been his fate. He wouldn't be a better general manager though. Meanwhile, Brian Burke has a degree from Harvard Law School, is he an impressive general manager?

The issue with Bergevin is not the lack of formal education, but the lack of intellectual curiosity and humility. He's in love with himself, and he interprets the world via slogans. That prevents him from learning from his mistakes, and ultimately he's unlikely to improve. I'd be a lot more comfortable with him if he knew to own up to his failings and to acknowledge his errors, like a real leader does. And that doesn't require education.
Agreed, the guy dedicated his entire life to the sport, played in this league for years, had various jobs (with Chicago) for a few other years... I don't think having a diploma would change much, it could help him with technicalities (contracts for example) but that's about it, and most GMs have assistants just for that anyway.

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05-18-2017, 08:00 PM
  #478
Belial
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
That's not really fair. PK Subban was a top pairing level NHL defenseman playing in the AHL for seasoning purposes and ran over the entire league that year. No AHL coach should expect to have that in their roster.

The broader point that the AHL team has largely lacked for good offensive defensemen is accurate though. Barbario was the only guy who was well suited to be an AHL #1 they've had.
Well that's the point, Boucher get's praised for his AHL success but he got a guy like PK who was dominating the league. PK finished third in points and first in goals among defensemen as a rookie!

And a guy like Desharnais who was clearly too good for the AHL. 78 points in 60GP, little Davey was killing it.

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05-18-2017, 08:06 PM
  #479
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We need to hope that Lefebvre rejects Bergevin's offer.

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05-18-2017, 08:18 PM
  #480
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Speaking of Davey, Bergevin should offer him a contract and send him down to play for Laval!

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05-18-2017, 08:18 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Speaking as someone with a PhD, an impressive one at that, I'm uncomfortable with criticizing Bergevin's lack of education. I know that there are smart people who never went to university, and some who went there, coasted, got B'S and C's, and don't know much at all. In the case of hockey players, they dedicate their lives to university, their major is CHL/AHL and that's what they learn. Some might end up really smart otherwise. For people with athletic talent, it's actually smart to focus on athletics at the expense of formal education.

What concerns me with Bergevin is not the lack of paper to his name. I'm sure that he could have gone to Concordia and got a 2.72/4.00 in marketing studies if that had been his fate. He wouldn't be a better general manager though. Meanwhile, Brian Burke has a degree from Harvard Law School, is he an impressive general manager?

The issue with Bergevin is not the lack of formal education, but the lack of intellectual curiosity and humility. He's in love with himself, and he interprets the world via slogans. That prevents him from learning from his mistakes, and ultimately he's unlikely to improve. I'd be a lot more comfortable with him if he knew to own up to his failings and to acknowledge his errors, like a real leader does. And that doesn't require education.
I won't get into my university credentials but suffice to say that your point is well taken. I should have more carefully directed my comments to his self-absorbed persona and the brash manner with which he disposes of any matter that remotely may involve his decision-making and its consequences. You are correct in implying that the lack of a formal education isn't always an indication of lack of intelligence.

However, Bergevin's shortcomings are evident in the manner in which he disposes of complex questions with badly worded cliches that don't even have relevance to the situation at hand, by all too quickly resorting to confrontation rather respectful dialogue and for someone in the public eye, he shows a lot condescension toward those who address him with issues coming from a position of considered and intelligent opinion, especially where assertions are supported by fact. Maybe this is why he finds common ground with brash and uncouth low intellect types like Therrien, with whom he entertained a friendship that far surpassed the line of authority that comes with their respective positions.

Interesting that you'd be more comfortable with Bergevin if he owned up to his failings, however, what you are not saying and is implied as I see it, is that there has been no signs over his 5 years as GM, that he has made any advancement in that area. More importantly for Hab fans, he seems to have an issue cutting ties with those to whom he has entrusted critical responsibilities, almost as if to let them go would be an monumental admission of failure. And so he retains these appointees far past their date of effectiveness and in most cases, one could convincingly argue that several of them should never have been named in the first place.

His whole management style is predicated on dubious appointments and some smack of blatant nepotism. And that doesn't bode well in terms of the goals he continues to espouse when called upon to justify his continued trust in these individuals. With Bergevin at the helm, all jobs are safe -- which is completely incompatible with a results-oriented business. And educated or not, there is no excuse for this type of behavior. Fans are rightly entitled to call him on it.

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05-18-2017, 08:25 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
Where did I say you're not allowed to have an opinion?

But yeah, I can see your opinion, Bergevin is dumb and makes dumb decisions. So every decision he makes are automatically stupid and he's wrong. This is not opinions this is something else, to be honest.
You claimed that we don't have access to insider information so that somehow that belittles our ability to emit an opinion, which is crass and antithetical to the whole idea of how a sports fan forum is run.

If I wouldn't know any better, I'd be hard pressed to believe that you're pining in steroidal manner for a Habs job. I don't think I've ever seen anyone endorse and promote the corporate line as much as you have.

And no, Bergevin isn't the smartest tool in the shed. How is that surprising? I'm no corporate shill, so I call it as I see it. I have nothing to gain either way.

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05-18-2017, 08:58 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
You claimed that we don't have access to insider information so that somehow that belittles our ability to emit an opinion, which is crass and antithetical to the whole idea of how a sports fan forum is run.

If I wouldn't know any better, I'd be hard pressed to believe that you're pining in steroidal manner for a Habs job. I don't think I've ever seen anyone endorse and promote the corporate line as much as you have.

And no, Bergevin isn't the smartest tool in the shed. How is that surprising? I'm no corporate shill, so I call it as I see it. I have nothing to gain either way.
I didn't say you can't have an opinion, I just pointed out the fact that there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scene that we as fans are unaware of and don't have access to.

Claiming that someone is incompetent at something without actually knowing what he's doing is odd.

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05-18-2017, 09:07 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
I didn't say you can't have an opinion, I just pointed out the fact that there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scene that we as fans are unaware of and don't have access to.

Claiming that someone is incompetent at something without actually knowing what he's doing is odd.
You implied it by invoking that insider info we should absolutely have in order to have an informed opinion.

As for Bergevin's competence, it's a very public business, we can readily measure the result of his decision-making and the acumen of those he entrusts key responsibilities to within an organization that he mostly built with his personal imprint. This is not the CEO of a private corporation we're talking about -- his job is happening in a fishbowl. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that there is more than enough of a track record to date, to know that his decision-making has been suspect at best.

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05-18-2017, 09:13 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
You can't know if the results are there or not without knowing the objectives.
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I think that's an excellent point.
We can't know his objectives?

His objectives should be any number of these:
  1. Develop players to be prepared for the NHL.
  2. Put emphasis on players drafted high as to maximize return on investment
  3. Create a winning atmosphere so players hate losing
  4. You have that 1-on-1 chance to talk and be the psychologist to help players learn

All 4 of these he has failed. Player development is very poor. The Habs top drafted players haven't impressed. They have had a losing attitude for 5 straight years. From what I have seen in how he speaks in press conferences, he is not the type of coach to sit down a player and talk, he is just like Michel Therrien.

For whatever reason you defend him. I take those reasons and I say replace him, give someone else a shot. They can't do worse. So many hockey minds, someone else may want this job more than him, he doesn't seem to care.

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Old
05-18-2017, 09:27 PM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post
I didn't say you can't have an opinion, I just pointed out the fact that there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scene that we as fans are unaware of and don't have access to.

Claiming that someone is incompetent at something without actually knowing what he's doing is odd.
it's not odd to defend every single move without actually knowing what the person is doing ? ? ?

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05-18-2017, 09:41 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
We need to hope that Lefebvre rejects Bergevin's offer.
Hope is not a plan.

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Old
05-18-2017, 10:00 PM
  #488
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I never understood why we can't just throw fat cash at top scouts. Get Philly's scout team and overpay if you have to.

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Old
05-19-2017, 12:17 AM
  #489
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I'm fairly sure that if anyone on this board did as poor a job as MB and his buddies they'd be fired.


Last edited by Istvan: 05-19-2017 at 08:20 AM. Reason: Too harsh
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Old
05-19-2017, 10:21 AM
  #490
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Here's a list of players who played their 1st NHL game with the Habs since Bergevin took over :

Gallagher Galchenyuk Tinordi Beaulieu Pateryn Bournival Nattinen C. Thomas Holland Sekac De la Rose Andrighetto Carr Hanley Dietz McCarron Hudon Lernout Holloway Lindgren Ellis Condon Johnston Lehkonen Scherbak Sergachev

Not a bad list. Reasonable success, although of course the jury is still out on many.

It'll be interesting to find out if the Habs will keep Lefebvre.

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Old
05-19-2017, 12:32 PM
  #491
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The big issue has been our 1st rounders not panning out as hoped. We seem to manage the odd steal in the later rounds, but our first rounders have been huge disappointments since '07.

'08 nothing
'09 nothing (Leblanc)
'10 nothing (Tinordi)
'11 3rd pairing D (Beaulieu)
'12 middle 6 winger (Chucky)
'13 4th liner (McCarron)

'14 to now is too early to judge, but I'm not optimistic about Scherbak.

In 6 years we have managed a middle 6 winger and a 3rd pairing D from the 1st round, which is just terrible.

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05-19-2017, 01:02 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
The big issue has been our 1st rounders not panning out as hoped. We seem to manage the odd steal in the later rounds, but our first rounders have been huge disappointments since '07.

'08 nothing
'09 nothing (Leblanc)
'10 nothing (Tinordi)
'11 3rd pairing D (Beaulieu)
'12 middle 6 winger (Chucky)
'13 4th liner (McCarron)

'14 to now is too early to judge, but I'm not optimistic about Scherbak.

In 6 years we have managed a middle 6 winger and a 3rd pairing D from the 1st round, which is just terrible.
And Lefebvre might come back.

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Old
05-20-2017, 12:29 PM
  #493
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You can't afford to lose excellent assets that Timmins has drafted for nothing.

McDonagh for Gomez
Streit for nothing
Halak (at his peak) for Eller
Subban for Weber (who will decline as Subban enters his peak)

We could have used McDonagh to land a Johanssen, as the Predators used Seth Jones. So far, McDonagh is better than Seth Jones.

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Old
05-25-2017, 06:59 AM
  #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
The big issue has been our 1st rounders not panning out as hoped. We seem to manage the odd steal in the later rounds, but our first rounders have been huge disappointments since '07.

'08 nothing
'09 nothing (Leblanc)
'10 nothing (Tinordi)
'11 3rd pairing D (Beaulieu)
'12 middle 6 winger (Chucky)
'13 4th liner (McCarron)

'14 to now is too early to judge, but I'm not optimistic about Scherbak.

In 6 years we have managed a middle 6 winger and a 3rd pairing D from the 1st round, which is just terrible.
I agree with everything except for calling Chucky a middle 6 winger. That's just not right and not how fans should be treating Galchenyuk IMO. Coaches will do what they do but Chucky is a serious talent in this league and your falling into the winger/center roller coaster devalue game.

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Old
05-25-2017, 09:08 AM
  #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamp9post View Post
The big issue has been our 1st rounders not panning out as hoped. We seem to manage the odd steal in the later rounds, but our first rounders have been huge disappointments since '07.

'08 nothing
'09 nothing (Leblanc)
'10 nothing (Tinordi)
'11 3rd pairing D (Beaulieu)
'12 middle 6 winger (Chucky)
'13 4th liner (McCarron)

'14 to now is too early to judge, but I'm not optimistic about Scherbak.

In 6 years we have managed a middle 6 winger and a 3rd pairing D from the 1st round, which is just terrible.
In what team a player who has 56 points + 30G season at 22 and a pace of 59 points at 23 is a middle 6 winger?
  • Pens had Kessel with 70 points and Sheary with 53 points. How many points would Galcheyuk playing with Crosby and Malkin?
  • Chicago had Kane and Panarin as their top-2 scorer but Galchenyuk had a pace of 59 points which is bellow Toews. So in Chicago, he would be top-6 but behind Kane and Panarin (both are older).
  • With NYR, Zucharello was the best scorer with 59 points: Again Galchenyuk had a pace of 59 points.
  • In CLB, Saad best season so far is 53 points: below 56 points AG got. Atkinson had 62 points at 27 years old. His best was before was 53 points.
  • In Washington, he would have a better pace with Backstrom or Kuznetsov than Johansson did.
  • In Min, Neiderreter had 57 points with much better centers.

Galchenyuk would be a top-3 in any team in the league. So middle-6 is pretty much disingenuous.
BTW, all the wingers in that list are older than Galchenyuk.

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Old
05-25-2017, 09:35 AM
  #496
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I really do wish the Habs just start drafting talent/skill over everything else. A player can still grow at that age, they can put on muscle, they can learn to play defense, you can mature but you can't teach raw talent. And if it's between two players of equal skill, then you can chose the guy with "character" or whatever other intangibles you want.

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Old
05-26-2017, 10:35 AM
  #497
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Just read the article below about the Habs lack of prospects coming through the system. Apparently it's Brian Flynn's fault..

Why are the Canadiens seeing so few prospects coming through their own system?
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nhl/...fEG?li=AAggNb9

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Old
05-26-2017, 11:02 AM
  #498
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Just read the article below about the Habs lack of prospects coming through the system. Apparently it's Brian Flynn's fault..

Why are the Canadiens seeing so few prospects coming through their own system?
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nhl/...fEG?li=AAggNb9
But it's Bergevin's fault for trading picks for Flynn!

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Old
05-26-2017, 11:41 AM
  #499
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Easy. Change GM and fire Timmins.

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Old
05-27-2017, 12:53 AM
  #500
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