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Time for a Drafting and Development Change

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Old
05-15-2017, 11:05 AM
  #51
WhiskeySeven
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If BriseBois already has a cult of personality, and doesn't have experience in the big chair I want no part of him.

Bring in Doug Wilson or another experienced, positive GM. No more rookies and randoms.

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05-15-2017, 11:26 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Google when MB was hired (hint: Answer is 2012). Draft years from 2008-2011 fall on Gainey and Timmins. Lack of picks and bad picks. It was terrible and put an anchor on our ability to improve our roster for many seasons after that. We are only now starting to see the prospects under the new era of drafting by MB/TT make the roster.

Galchenyuk was easy. 3rd overall pick and was the best of his draft year so far.

Lehkonen made an impact last year.

MacCarron, Hudon, DLR will make impacts this year. Maybe Sergachev too!

Juulsen, Scherbak the year after.

I'm not saying the drafting has been excellent in the last 5 years. I'm just saying it's been very solid and were actually generating NHL players instead of the 2 in the 4 years prior under BG/TT
As his point states, they have a major development impactment on those guys. Drafted under previous regime, developed under current

Most would be in their 1-3 AHL season.

You are being purposely dishonest

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05-15-2017, 11:30 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Draft View Post
It seems to have gotten pretty stale. The philosophy needs to change and more time needs to be spent looking outside of NA and prioritizing the Habs backyard in the Q. Skill needs to become a priority, not character or toughness or intangibles. I'd be open to a change.
You can't change the philosophy unless you change the decision-makers who espouse a given philosophy. Bergevin has implemented an old school, build with character approach while holding almost none of his appointees accountable and deflecting any blame from himself with arrogance.

Either Bergevin goes or he becomes directly accountable to someone other than Molson.

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05-15-2017, 11:38 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Google when MB was hired (hint: Answer is 2012). Draft years from 2008-2011 fall on Gainey and Timmins. Lack of picks and bad picks. It was terrible and put an anchor on our ability to improve our roster for many seasons after that. We are only now starting to see the prospects under the new era of drafting by MB/TT make the roster.

Galchenyuk was easy. 3rd overall pick and was the best of his draft year so far.

Lehkonen made an impact last year.

MacCarron, Hudon, DLR will make impacts this year. Maybe Sergachev too!

Juulsen, Scherbak the year after.

I'm not saying the drafting has been excellent in the last 5 years. I'm just saying it's been very solid and were actually generating NHL players instead of the 2 in the 4 years prior under BG/TT
How do you continue using who WILL make an impact as if it was a proof that they in fact will make an impact? So we are a better team than the rest because those 3 guys WILL make an impact? Fine, I will say I disagree 'cause just in our division, McAvoy, Frederic, Zboril, DeBrusk, Senyshyn, Heinen, Cehlarik, Nylander, Asplund, Cornel......It's so easy to name random names and say how they WILL make an impact when we actually have NO IDEA if they really will.

Is it really how Bergevin sees this too? Wow we are in more trouble than I thought we were.

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05-15-2017, 11:38 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Apoplectic Habs Fan View Post
As his point states, they have a major development impactment on those guys. Drafted under previous regime, developed under current

Most would be in their 1-3 AHL season.

You are being purposely dishonest
Who has MB and his hires not developed correctly from the previous 4 years of drafting when he got hired?

Beaulieu and Gallahger made it as NHL players. Tinordi and Leblanc were busts. Who else did our management destroy in development from the 2008-2011 draft years?


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05-15-2017, 11:42 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
How do you continue using who WILL make an impact as if it was a proof that they in fact will make an impact? So we are a better team than the rest because those 3 guys WILL make an impact?

Fine, I will say I disagree 'cause just in our division, McAvoy, Frederic, Zboril, DeBrusk, Senyshyn, Heinen, Cehlarik, Nylander, Asplund, Cornel......

It's so easy to name random names and say how they WILL make an impact when we actually have NO IDEA if they really will.
Lets stick with one player. What are your thoughts about Hudon? How have we not developed him correctly and do you think he's not in the NHL for several years to come? If you say no, then you are extremely taking the negative approach to prove your frustrations are real and this management sucks. Have a look at Hudon's numbers and compare this to others who made the NHL and what their AHL stats were.

This is my point with you. Everything is always terrible. You can call me too positive but I do admit to negative when it has merits.

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05-15-2017, 11:49 AM
  #57
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Yes, I do believe that this organization needs a drafting and development overhaul. I've written about this many times. If you listen back to Bergevin's first press conference, where he outlined his priorities as a GM, all of them were related to drafting and developing. I had liked some early moves, like getting some scouts back in the Q, getting some pretty solid names from the scouting world for the OHL and the WHL, and having some 'Claude Ruel-types' to nurture the kids.

Looking at it today: he failed to deliver on his promises. He traded numerous draft choices for some band aid solutions; although he added some Q scouts, his VP Timmins still isn't too fond of the league (his drafting record in the Q is weak as hell, dating back to the late 2000's); his development squad has failed in the minors; I will give a pass to Martin Lapointe, as I don't know if he's doing a good job or not, but his role should be crucial, just like Ruel's was.
Drafting and developing are major areas where a high revenue team can wreak havoc. However, the Habs keep handcuffing themselves by not hiring the best and appointing decision-makers who hire scouts and development individuals based on other criteria. They're getting the results they deserve, no matter how many threads get started on fan sites about this.

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05-15-2017, 11:54 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
Drafting and developing are major areas where a high revenue team can wreak havoc. However, the Habs keep handcuffing themselves by not hiring the best and appointing decision-makers who hire scouts and development individuals based on other criteria. They're getting the results they deserve, no matter how many threads get started on fan sites about this.
I think this existed more before than today. The best scouts are not always the most paid today because there is plenty to choose from. Most teams hire friends of friends and relationships they created along their careers.

Networking don't cost money and hard work always prevales. I don't agree the Habs have an advantage because they have more money to spend. Who determines who the best are?

Drafting comes down who how may shots you get. In other words, don't trade your draft picks away if you wan to build from the draft. The more darts you got, the better shot at hitting what your looking for.

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05-15-2017, 12:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Lets stick with one player. What are your thoughts about Hudon? How have we not developed him correctly and do you think he's not in the NHL for several years to come? If you say no, then you are extremely taking the negative approach to prove your frustrations are real and this management sucks. Have a look at Hudon's numbers and compare this to others who made the NHL and what their AHL stats were.

This is my point with you. Everything is always terrible. You can call me too positive but I do admit to negative when it has merits.
Nah, that's your selective reading talking. Whenever Bergevin made what I thought they were great moves, I said so. You choose to not see them. Not my problem. So your point means nothing since you just take what it pleases you to have an opinion on somebody.

My thoughts about Hudon is that they are screwing with him. We are now at a point where Hudon will have to go through waivers. We did NOT, in all those years, tried him over an extensive period of time BEFORE he reaches that point. Now it's we have to keep him or he goes through waivers. Another Tinordi/Ghetto scenario where he probably won't be good enough for us 'cause we don't have time to develop in the NHL and another team will benefit from him (see Ghetto). But somehow that's positive.

His AHL stats didn't seem to never be good enough to deserve some real playing time with us even with the injuries we had. Somehow, he is now a permanent fixture with the Habs, but not only that we already know that he'll come in and play an important role with us?


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05-15-2017, 12:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
I think this existed more before than today. The best scouts are not always the most paid today because there is plenty to choose from. Most teams hire friends of friends and relationships they created along their careers.

Networking don't cost money and hard work always prevales. I don't agree the Habs have an advantage because they have more money to spend. Who determines who the best are?

Drafting comes down who how may shots you get. In other words, don't trade your draft picks away if you wan to build from the draft. The more darts you got, the better shot at hitting what your looking for.
Just like any other industry, the best organizations vye for the best available. You can determine the best available simply by their track record post-draft. You can have all the darts you want but if the dart thrower is flawed, you still land outside the target moreso than your opponents' better dart throwers.

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05-15-2017, 12:08 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Who has MB and his hires not developed correctly from the previous 4 years of drafting when he got hired?

Beaulieu and Gallahger made it as NHL players. Tinordi and Leblanc were busts. Who else did our management destroy in development from the 2008-2011 draft years?
Keep ducking and putting your head in the sand. If you cant acknowlege that they have an impact on the previous regimes picks in those years, whats the point. With hindsight, after they have flopped, you are saying they were bad picks at that time. Doesnt work that way.

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05-15-2017, 12:11 PM
  #62
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Nah, that's your selective reading talking. Whenever Bergevin made what I thought they were great moves, I said so. You choose to not see them. Not my problem. So your point means nothing since you just take what it pleases you to have an opinion on somebody.

My thoughts about Hudon is that they are screwing with him. We are now at a point where Hudon will have to go through waivers. We did NOT, in all those years, tried him over an extensive period of time BEFORE he reaches that point. Now it's we have to keep him or he goes through waivers. Another Tinordi/Ghetto scenario where he probably won't be good enough for us 'cause we don't have time to develop in the NHL and another team will benefit from him. But somehow that's positive.

His AHL stats didn't seem to never be good enough to deserve some real playing time with us even with the injuries we had. Somehow, he is now a permanent fixture with the Habs, but not only that we already know that he'll come in and play an important role with us?
Remember last year when Hudon = Lehkonen. Hudon will get his shot and will prove the doubters wrong. If you think Hudon was developed poorly. You also think Pleky was developed poorly. Pleky played more AHL games than Hudon has.

Many players play 2 or 3 seasons in the AHL and become very good NHL players.

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05-15-2017, 12:13 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Apoplectic Habs Fan View Post
Keep ducking and putting your head in the sand. If you cant acknowlege that they have an impact on the previous regimes picks in those years, whats the point. With hindsight, after they have flopped, you are saying they were bad picks at that time. Doesnt work that way.
Your avoiding the question. Shows to me you got nothing to support what your saying.

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05-15-2017, 12:18 PM
  #64
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Just like any other industry, the best organizations vye for the best available. You can determine the best available simply by their track record post-draft. You can have all the darts you want but if the dart thrower is flawed, you still land outside the target moreso than your opponents' better dart throwers.
Who has drafted better than the Habs in the last 5 years other than the obvious (Oilers, Leafs, Sabres, Coyotes, Jets, Cans, etc) who have drafted in the top 10 more than other other teams.

If you were the Habs GM, tell us how you would figure out who the best scout was? That is a very complicated formula and Google will not help you. You hire based on networking. The guy who has a more broad network of connections, gets a better chance to find the right guy for the job. Money helps but it's only a small factor. Most teams pay if they feel they got the best guy for the job.

It's not like the 90's where you can get superstars in later draft rounds by having scouts over seas and more connections. Most teams invest a huge amount these days in scouting. There are very few superstars that come from the 3rd round or beyond.

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05-15-2017, 12:21 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Remember last year when Hudon = Lehkonen. Hudon will get his shot and will prove the doubters wrong. If you think Hudon was developed poorly. You also think Pleky was developed poorly. Pleky played more AHL games than Hudon has.

Many players play 2 or 3 seasons in the AHL and become very good NHL players.
NO idea how you can make that comparison. So every player has to be in the AHL for 3 years to develop properly? Are you saying that Gallagher would have been a better player if he would have stayed 3 years in the AHL? What kind of analysis is that?

Tell me how many players in the NHL play a key role for his team after spending 3 full years in the AHL. And when you'll see that it's a minority and those guys are the exception, I have no idea why you treat this as the norm. Yanick Weber didn't even play a full 3 years in the AHL. Ryan White didn't even play a full 3 years. Are you telling me that if they would, they would have become so much better see Tomas Plekanec?

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05-15-2017, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Who has drafted better than the Habs at drafting in the last 5 years other than the obvious (Oilers, Leafs, Sabres, Coyotes, Jets, Cans, etc) who have drafted in the top 10 more than other other teams.

If you were the Habs GM, tell us how you would figure out who the best scout was? That is a very complicated formula and Google will not help you. You hire based on networking. The guy who has a more broad network of connections, gets a better chance to find the right guy for the job. Money helps but it's only a small factor. Most teams pay if they feel they got the best guy for the job.
If I were I Habs GM, I wouldn't be posting here and I'd have access to a ton of resources. If money wasn't a factor, there wouldn't be a salary cap in place. And since there isn't a salary cap applicable to drafting and development, as a high revenue team, you have an obvious edge.

There is a vast network of industry insiders and agents any GM can tap into. Look at how deficient the Habs scouting has been in Scandinavian countries -- this is where you take lessons from other teams and don't reinvent the wheel. More often than not, it means increasing your presence with better talent evaluators, which is a function of allocating budget -- which the Habs have in spades. Not all teams have that kind of latitude.

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05-15-2017, 12:28 PM
  #67
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NO idea how you can make that comparison. So every player has to be in the AHL for 3 years to develop properly? Are you saying that Gallagher would have been a better player if he would have stayed 3 years in the AHL? What kind of analysis is that?

Tell me how many players in the NHL play a key role for his team after spending 3 full years in the AHL. And when you'll see that it's a minority and those guys are the exception, I have no idea why you treat this as the norm. Yanick Weber didn't even play a full 3 years in the AHL. Ryan White didn't even play a full 3 years. Are you telling me that if they would, they would have become so much better see Tomas Plekanec?
Its a matter of circumstance. If the NHL team is a non playoff team, you get a better shot at getting NHL ice time. Just wasn't the case with Hudon but if you have been paying attention, he has been one of the better offensive guys in the AHL in the last 3 years.

Hudon is a solid prospect and has 4 pts in 6 NHL games so far playing 4th line minutes. Habs may have sheltered him this year based on the upcoming expansion draft. Lehkonen also won the NHL spot in last years camp due to his contract of going back overseas if he didn't make the team.

My whole entire point is we are not terrible at developing. But we were bad at drafting based on what draft picks we actually had from 2008-2011 draft years. This is the reason why most are saying what they are saying today. Gallagher and Beaulieu are not enough players generated from those years and it severely hurt our ability to improve our team by having more prospect make the team or using these assets when guys like Carter, ROR, RyJo became available. We had garbage to trade with.

We have done much much better with MB/TT at rebuilding our prospect pool in the last 5 years vs the 4 years before with BG/TT

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05-15-2017, 12:31 PM
  #68
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If I were I Habs GM, I wouldn't be posting here and I'd have access to a ton of resources. If money wasn't a factor, there wouldn't be a salary cap in place. And since there isn't a salary cap applicable to drafting and development, as a high revenue team, you have an obvious edge.

There is a vast network of industry insiders and agents any GM can tap into. Look at how deficient the Habs scouting has been in Scandinavian countries -- this is where you take lessons from other teams and don't reinvent the wheel. More often than not, it means increasing your presence with better talent evaluators, which is a function of allocating budget -- which the Habs have in spades. Not all teams have that kind of latitude.

Finding the right guy with your networking ability > Finding the right guy with a bigger budget


All 31 NHL teams are going to pay if they feel the person is the right hire. Your networking ability is what helps you find the right guy.... then you pay

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05-15-2017, 12:36 PM
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How about we start picking some damn Centers in the first round that aren't 6'6 hulks who have almost no chance of being top 6 centers. We just don't throw any resources at the problem then wonder why we have no center depth. Stop drafting defenseman in the first round. I'm tired of these sleeper 3rd and 4th round centers that TT is hoping to hit a home run on that always bust. I'm always waiting for us to draft a 6'1 center with good offensive instincts but it never happens, hell he could be 5'10 I'd still be happy. But we are always picking these dmen that project to be top 4 dman. Ugh, my one hope is they trade up to the mid teens and pick a center but I doubt it happens.

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05-15-2017, 12:43 PM
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How about we start picking some damn Centers in the first round that aren't 6'6 hulks who have almost no chance of being top 6 centers. We just don't throw any resources at the problem then wonder why we have no center depth. Stop drafting defenseman in the first round. I'm tired of these sleeper 3rd and 4th round centers that TT is hoping to hit a home run on that always bust. I'm always waiting for us to draft a 6'1 center with good offensive instincts but it never happens, hell he could be 5'10 I'd still be happy. But we are always picking these dmen that project to be top 4 dman. Ugh, my one hope is they trade up to the mid teens and pick a center but I doubt it happens.
That plan was Galchenyuk & McCarron. We will see how these guys can play center in the next few years under Julien. Also, I feel we have to trade for a center or sign one. Were not picking in the top 10 anytime soon and we can't wait 5 more years for this draft pick to develop as a center.

Lets see what the roster looks like this September. I feel were going to be in better shape vs last September but who knows how much better!

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05-15-2017, 12:46 PM
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Your avoiding the question. Shows to me you got nothing to support what your saying.
Its been done for you already. Its in other threads. Likely done last week as well


Last edited by Apoplectic Habs Fan: 05-15-2017 at 12:59 PM.
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05-15-2017, 12:57 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Apoplectic Habs Fan View Post
As his point states, they have a major development impactment on those guys. Drafted under previous regime, developed under current

Most would be in their 1-3 AHL season.

You are being purposely dishonest
Yeah, I mentioned that as well in the past. I'd argue that the 08 class may mostly be in their first or second year of AHL if they stayed in the CHL until they were 20. MB's regime would be on the hook for developing them. Otherwise, we are saying if a player isn't developed by 21, they are all busts...

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05-15-2017, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post

Finding the right guy with your networking ability > Finding the right guy with a bigger budget


All 31 NHL teams are going to pay if they feel the person is the right hire. Your networking ability is what helps you find the right guy.... then you pay
All GMs have network ability. Most of them are ex-players or have spent years moving up the ranks in various capacities and organizations.

Not all organizations dedicate the same resources to scouting and development, however.

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05-15-2017, 01:04 PM
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Anyone noticed that Sly's been with the Bulldogs/Icecaps for 5 years and hasn't moved on to an NHL job?

Boucher was with us for 2 years before getting snapped up. In fact, he had two different head coaching job offers.
His work with the Senators has been exceptional. Boucher is not a one trick pony when it comes to strategy as many seem to believe. He determines what suits his team and goes with that. We underperform, they overperform.

He was also a much better developer of talent when he was our AHL coach, IMO.

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05-15-2017, 01:23 PM
  #75
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Ottawa is benefiting from their 08-11 drafts.

Karlsson/Hoffman/Stone/Pageu.

Z traded for Brassard.

Habs 08-11 was horrible as many have said already. Outside of Karlsson and Z those guys were not high picks.

Don't want to pump Ottawa up to much. They are having an amazing run but if habs played them in round 2 everyone loving the Sens would expect the habs to steam roll them and if we lost a game it would be the apocolypse. I doubt anyone 2 years ago after habs bounced Ottawa when their offense was a limp as habs was in round 1, would say all they need to do is trade for Brassard and Phaneuf and they can make a playoff run.

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