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Time for a Drafting and Development Change

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Old
05-15-2017, 01:26 PM
  #76
Habaholicgolfer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apoplectic Habs Fan View Post
Its been done for you already. Its in other threads. Likely done last week as well
Surely with the lack of picks we had from 2008-2011, you can list these failed development prospects again? I count 2. Leblanc and Tinordi. Who else? Who was drafted and we destroyed their career by poor development. If it was such an easy debate to win, you could of easily said the names of these players by now? I'm sure if you had an answer, you would of been quick to the punch too

Your incorrect and you know it! Keep searching for any remote reason to dislike this management. There are some to talk about for sure as it's the case with every NHL team. However, bad development when we didn't have a great prospect pool from the BG/TT era is not one that can be pinned on MB and the current management.

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05-15-2017, 01:38 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Surely with the lack of picks we had from 2008-2011, you can list these failed development prospects again? I count 2. Leblanc and Tinordi. Who else? Who was drafted and we destroyed their career by poor development. If it was such an easy debate to win, you could of easily said the names of these players by now? I'm sure if you had an answer, you would of been quick to the punch too

Your incorrect and you know it! Keep searching for any remote reason to dislike this management. There are some to talk about for sure as it's the case with every NHL team. However, bad development when we didn't have a great prospect pool from the BG/TT era is not one that can be pinned on MB and the current management.
Leblanc, Tinordi and Nygren. So that's 3 prospect with upsides wasted. Add the 2 graduated and you're at 5 for 4 draft years.

And for the record management is awful before we start looking in the general direction of the draft/development, so it doesn't really have any bearing on anything.

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05-15-2017, 01:39 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
How can you evaluate 5 years of drafting when it takes 3-5 years to develop? Maybe you can evaluate the 2012 draft but that's it. You are way to premature in saying what you're saying at this stage.
I don't know that Lefebvre has proven much in 5 years as AHL coach. Most feel he's had his opportunity, time for someone else.

As for drafting, we just need look at 5 years worth of data and how other organizations have fared and the players our drafting people passed over, who are already producing results in other organizations. Odd how those other organizations who drafted players after the Habs did within a given round, didn't need 5 years to develop. I certainly understand that for certain players it takes longer, however, when the cupboard is practically bare, it's pretty obvious that there are deficiencies that need to be addressed.

Anyway, don't want to derail this thread as we already have one on drafting and development, so why don't we take it there. Thanks.

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05-15-2017, 01:43 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by OnTheRun View Post
Leblanc, Tinordi and Nygren. So that's 3 prospect with upsides wasted. Add the 2 graduated and you're at 5 for 4 draft years.

And for the record management is awful before we start looking in the general direction of the draft/development, so it doesn't really have any bearing on anything.
The Bergevin administration was really high on Nygren, too bad they ****ed it up.

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05-15-2017, 01:45 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by OnTheRun View Post
Leblanc, Tinordi and Nygren. So that's 3 prospect with upsides wasted. Add the 2 graduated and you're at 5 for 4 draft years.

And for the record management is awful before we start looking in the general direction of the draft/development, so it doesn't really have any bearing on anything.
Tinordi/Leblanc were not ruined they just sucked. Neither have amounted to anything after moving on from Montreal.

Nygren barely played in NA and the fact that he ran home each time he came over says more about him than the habs development.

I mean you might as well say we ruined Archambeault/Dieder/Natinnen/Turnev/Avitsn/Dider etc...

I just don't see how I can give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who picked such gems as Kostitisyn,Fischer,Chipchura,Leblanc, and Tinordi.

He hit a home run with Ryan and Max. Lucked out with 2 top 5 picks and took Price and AG. But overall look at TT's 1st rounds, take out 07 and its really bad. Add in all the players he could of taken (Carter, Giroux,Zajac,Klefboom,Kuznetzov,Krider) and you have a scout who like the players he chooses lacks hockey sense.

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05-15-2017, 01:48 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Tinordi/Leblanc were not ruined they just sucked. Neither have amounted to anything after moving on from Montreal.

Nygren barely played in NA and the fact that he ran home each time he came over says more about him than the habs development.

I mean you might as well say we ruined Archambeault/Dieder/Natinnen/Turnev/Avitsn/Dider etc...

I just don't see how I can give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who picked such gems as Kostitisyn,Fischer,Chipchura,Leblanc, and Tinordi.

He hit a home run with Ryan and Max. Lucked out with 2 top 5 picks and took Price and AG. But overall look at TT's 1st rounds, take out 07 and its really bad. Add in all the players he could of taken (Carter, Giroux,Zajac,Klefboom,Kuznetzov,Krider) and you have a scout who like the players he chooses lacks hockey sense.
Nope, Leblanc was the consensus BPA and his development was going splendidly until Lefebvre.

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05-15-2017, 01:51 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
Tinordi/Leblanc were not ruined they just sucked. Neither have amounted to anything after moving on from Montreal.

Nygren barely played in NA and the fact that he ran home each time he came over says more about him than the habs development.

I mean you might as well say we ruined Archambeault/Dieder/Natinnen/Turnev/Avitsn/Dider etc...

I just don't see how I can give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who picked such gems as Kostitisyn,Fischer,Chipchura,Leblanc, and Tinordi.

He hit a home run with Ryan and Max. Lucked out with 2 top 5 picks and took Price and AG. But overall look at TT's 1st rounds, take out 07 and its really bad. Add in all the players he could of taken (Carter, Giroux,Zajac,Klefboom,Kuznetzov,Krider) and you have a scout who like the players he chooses lacks hockey sense.
You draft with the power of hindsight, you evaluate the draft with the power of hindsight... Congratulation, your post have no merit.

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05-15-2017, 01:51 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Runner77 View Post
I don't know that Lefebvre has proven much in 5 years as AHL coach. Most feel he's had his opportunity, time for someone else.

As for drafting, we just need look at 5 years worth of data and how other organizations have fared and the players our drafting people passed over, who are already producing results in other organizations. Odd how those other organizations who drafted players after the Habs did within a given round, didn't need 5 years to develop. I certainly understand that for certain players it takes longer, however, when the cupboard is practically bare, it's pretty obvious that there are deficiencies that need to be addressed.

Anyway, don't want to derail this thread as we already have one on drafting and development, so why don't we take it there. Thanks.
I am not a big fan of Sly but don't think he deserves the bashing. What did he have to work with really? Beaulieu, Gallagher, Tinordi, Leblanc, Hudon, Scherbak, DLR, Fucale. The only two guys who didn't work out was Tinordi and Leblanc and they were just bad picks that no team could of "developed"

Having said all of this. I do think we need someone fresh in Laval. Not because Sly is "terrible", but because we need a new start and Sly was average at best.

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05-15-2017, 01:54 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
I do think we need someone fresh in Laval. Not because Sly is "terrible", but because we need a new start and Sly was average at best.
If Lefebvre were to be the Rockets' coach next season, the level of scrutiny would be ramped up several notches and he'd really be exposed for what he is -- a Bergevin crony who shouldn't have been hired to begin with.

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05-15-2017, 01:56 PM
  #85
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For over a decade I've been duped by the media and mainly hfboards into believing Timmins was one of the best scouts in the league. His record is atrocious.

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05-15-2017, 01:59 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
I am not a big fan of Sly but don't think he deserves the bashing. What did he have to work with really? Beaulieu, Gallagher, Tinordi, Leblanc, Hudon, Scherbak, DLR, Fucale. The only two guys who didn't work out was Tinordi and Leblanc and they were just bad picks that no team could of "developed"

Having said all of this. I do think we need someone fresh in Laval. Not because Sly is "terrible", but because we need a new start and Sly was average at best.
Not sure how you can think Leblanc was a bad pick. He excelled in every league and tournament he played in. He even had 11goals and 22 points in his first 31 AHL games. That is pretty impressive. Why do you think he was called up to the NHL that year when the Habs were one of the worst teams in the league? He did ok for a player coming out of junior with 10 points in 40 games. Nothing special, but signs did not point to being a complete bust.

And then Lefebvre took over the team and his development just stopped. If you do not think that the coach played a huge factor in this guys failure to develop (Obviously it's not all on Lefebvre, but he surely didn't help the kid) I'm not sure you will find a better example of it.

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05-15-2017, 02:00 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Nope, Leblanc was the consensus BPA and his development was going splendidly until Lefebvre.
So then I guess you will give Sly a ton of credit for Ghetto and Hudon who have had better AHL careers and in Ghetto's case better NHL career than Leblanc?

And BTW Krider/M.Johansson/Palmeri taken with 8 picks of Leblanc yet Leblanc is the BPA.

Sure BPA for a scout who like the players he chooses lacks hockey sense.

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05-15-2017, 02:02 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by OnTheRun View Post
You draft with the power of hindsight, you evaluate the draft with the power of hindsight... Congratulation, your post have no merit.
So how do we evaluate then?

I guess we shouldn't expect the drafting team to draft good players? sure miss on 1 or 2 or 3 of those guys but all of them?

I guess since you can't dispute all the players we missed you attack me instead.

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05-15-2017, 02:03 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Travis Moen View Post
For over a decade I've been duped by the media and mainly hfboards into believing Timmins was one of the best scouts in the league. His record is atrocious.
His record is great...before 2008. Now that everyone has access to games and reports through social media, Timmins is nothing special.

He tries to roll the dice on unknown longshots as opposed to known longshots. That's his problem.

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05-15-2017, 02:04 PM
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We have come to a point where it's not worth discussing this topic anymore. Some people are just happy with not being great and well it's their right.

Who ****** care if they ruined guys or not. It has never been what the discussion is all about. People who come with this rhetoric are just deflecting shots. It doesn't matter. The matter of the fact is some people are paid very good salary to draft AND develop kids. We have not drafted and developed **** for a couple of years now. We have one of the worst prospect pool in the league period.

I don't give a ******* flying **** who is to blame for that. They should all lose their job before it's too late. ALL OF THEM.

It's like me saying to my boss "Hey! boss i did a terribad job but it's not my fault my coworker screwed up.". Yeah right. Gonna work. Only difference it'll make is we might both lose our job instead of just me. If i did a bad job for multiple years in a row no excuses will save my ***.

Timmins
Churla
Sly
Lapointe and the others should be fired.

You know maybe they even did a good job. Maybe AG will figure it out. Maybe Beaulieu will buy himself a brain. Maybe BigMac will finally improve his speed enough to be an NHLer, maybe Scherbak will stop looking like a teenager along the boards, maybe Hudon will have his chance and take it. Who knows? I certainly do not.

But i would personally not take any chances. Cause anyone who tell me right now our prospect pool looks good with a straight face is out to launch big time.

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05-15-2017, 02:06 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
So then I guess you will give Sly a ton of credit for Ghetto and Hudon who have had better AHL careers and in Ghetto's case better NHL career than Leblanc?

And BTW Krider/M.Johansson/Palmeri taken with 8 picks of Leblanc yet Leblanc is the BPA.

Sure BPA for a scout who like the players he chooses lacks hockey sense.
Kreider, etc would have failed under Bergevin.

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05-15-2017, 02:06 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by OnTheRun View Post
You draft with the power of hindsight, you evaluate the draft with the power of hindsight... Congratulation, your post have no merit.
Actually, I don't see any merits within your post. Show us examples before you go on attacks claiming others have no merits.

We can evaluate on the 2008-2011 draft years (in hindsight) because the book is out. There are no debate. All facts. Only two guys who are NHL players are Gallagher and Beaulieu. Then you can look at where we picked and see how many picks we actually had. We only had 7 of the possible 12 picks in the 1st 3 rounds. Bad picks (Tinordi and leblanc) combined with lack of picks = disaster 4 years of drafting.

Fast forward to today and we can only evaluate the 2012 draft. That produced Galchenyuk and Hudon. Because it takes 3-5 years to develop depending on each player, we can't really know for sure about the 2013-2016 draft years. However, we already have two impactful NHL players (Galchenyuk and Lehkonen). Then we have fringe guys like McCarron, Hudon, DLR, Scherbak. We don't really know how good these guys are yet until they all play a full NHL season which will happen soon! Rest of our our picks are raw and young and we have to wait.


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05-15-2017, 02:07 PM
  #93
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We have come to a point where it's not worth discussing this topic anymore. Some people are just happy with not being great and well it's their right.
Someone will tell you "your" dead wrong.

A mediocre GM is always at his best.

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05-15-2017, 02:08 PM
  #94
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Not sure how you can think Leblanc was a bad pick. He excelled in every league and tournament he played in. He even had 11goals and 22 points in his first 31 AHL games. That is pretty impressive. Why do you think he was called up to the NHL that year when the Habs were one of the worst teams in the league? He did ok for a player coming out of junior with 10 points in 40 games. Nothing special, but signs did not point to being a complete bust.

And then Lefebvre took over the team and his development just stopped. If you do not think that the coach played a huge factor in this guys failure to develop (Obviously it's not all on Lefebvre, but he surely didn't help the kid) I'm not sure you will find a better example of it.
Because the kid was a bean pole and had to have his GF whine and cry for him. To me he seemed to lack the comitment. And even after his fresh start he didn't do anything. Some guys are good at lower levels but can't get past that.

Even if Sly "ruined" him thats 1 player. the 08-11 drafts were still full of failed selections. And Sly still has other success stories that did better than Leblanc like Ghetto and Hudon.

and 10 points in 40 games is nothing impressive at all. How many habs prospects have we seen come up and get a bunch of points to amount to nothing.

Leblanc was a bad pick when there were 3 better players taken after him within 8 spots. Its possible that pick was politically motivated so I can excuse TT if he was being pressured to take the kid. He was also a C so at least they tried to address the habs biggest issue. But it also shows that the drafting team is always on the wrong page. When we have a guy like Giroux available habs take Fischer. When they chose the C they miss out on a good big winger like Krider. Its almost as if the universe is laughing at the habs drafting.

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05-15-2017, 02:08 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Kreider, etc would have failed under Bergevin.
BS! If Kreider fails, so does Byron, Gallagher, Danault.

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05-15-2017, 02:10 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
So then I guess you will give Sly a ton of credit for Ghetto and Hudon who have had better AHL careers and in Ghetto's case better NHL career than Leblanc?

And BTW Krider/M.Johansson/Palmeri taken with 8 picks of Leblanc yet Leblanc is the BPA.

Sure BPA for a scout who like the players he chooses lacks hockey sense.
2009 ISS FINAL RANKINGS : JUNE

1. JOHN TAVARES C 6'0" 198 L Sep 20/90 London OHL
2. MATT DUCHENE C 5'11" 198 L Jan 16/91 Brampton OHL
3. VICTOR HEDMAN D 6'6" 220 L Dec 18/90 Modo SweE
4. M. PAAJARVI-SVENSSON LW 6'1" 200 L Apr 12/91 Timra SweE
5. EVANDER KANE C 5'11" 160 L Aug 01/91 Vancouver WHL
6. BRAYDEN SCHENN C 6'0" 196 L Aug 22/91 Brandon WHL
7. JARED COWEN D 6'5" 218 L Jan 25/91 Spokane WHL
8. NAZEM KADRI C 6'1" 177 L Oct 06/90 London OHL
9. OLIVER EKMAN-LARSSON D 6'2" 176 L Oct 10/90 Leksands SweAl
10. DMITRI KULIKOV D 6'1" 195 L Oct 29/90 Drummondville QMJHL
11. JACOB JOSEFSON C 6'0" 187 L Mar 02/91 Djurgarden SweE
12. LOUIS LEBLANC C 5'11" 170 R Jan 26/91 Omaha USHL
13. RYAN ELLIS D 5'10" 173 R Jan 03/91 Windsor OHL
14. JORDAN SCHROEDER RW 5'8" 165 R Sep 29/90 U of MN WCHA
15. PETER HOLLAND C 6'2" 190 L Jan 14/91 Guelph OHL
16. JOHN MOORE D 6'2" 189 L Nov 19/90 Chicago USHL
17. LANDON FERRARO RW 6'0" 170 R Aug 08/91 Red Deer WHL
18. DREW SHORE C 6'2" 198 R Jan 29/91 USA18 NTDP
19. SCOTT GLENNIE C 6'1" 180 R Feb 22/91 Brandon WHL
20. ZACK KASSIAN RW 6'3" 205 R Jan 24/91 Peterborough OHL
21. NICK LEDDY D 5'11" 179 L Mar 20/91 Eden Prairie MN-HS
22. DAVID RUNDBLAD R 6'2 189 R Oct 8/90 Skelleftea SweE
23. KYLE PALMIERI C 5'10" 191 R Feb 1/91 USA18 NTDP
24. CHRIS KREIDER LW 6'2" 201 L Apr 30/91 Andover MA-HS
25. JORDAN CARON C 6'2" 200 L Nov 02/90 Rimouski QMJHL
26. ETHAN WEREK C 6'0" 191 L June 7/91 Kingston OHL
27. JEREMY MORIN C 5'10" 160 R Apr 16/91 USA18 NTDP
28. JOONAS NATTINEN C 6'2" 180 R Mar 03/91 Espoo FinJr
29. DMITRI ORLOV F 6'0" 197 L Jul 23/91 Novokuznetsk KHL
30. SIMON DESPRES LW 6'3" 205 L Jul 27/91 Saint John QMJHL

Also CSS: http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=31411

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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
So how do we evaluate then?

I guess we shouldn't expect the drafting team to draft good players? sure miss on 1 or 2 or 3 of those guys but all of them?

I guess since you can't dispute all the players we missed you attack me instead.
As always, I attack your **** poor argument, not you. There is zero merit in drafting in hindsight.

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05-15-2017, 02:11 PM
  #97
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His record is great...before 2008. Now that everyone has access to games and reports through social media, Timmins is nothing special.

He tries to roll the dice on unknown longshots as opposed to known longshots. That's his problem.
Timmins had a bad 2008-2011 draft span because he was missing 5 of 12 picks in the 1st 3 rounds (Gainey traded them away). Add to having 2 bad 1st round picks (Tinordi and Leblanc) and it's a disaster span of 4 years that is still hurting our team today

2012 under MB, TT was not great either. Galchenyuk was a great pick The other picks were bad but we snagged Hudon in the later rounds. Collberg, Thrower, Bozon, Vail were bad picks.

2013 was very good based on where the Habs drafted. McCarron, DLR, Fucale, Lehkonen, Ghetto, Reway. There is a few NHL'ers from this list. Fucale has had ups and downs and his next season is a important one! Reway got sick but who knows if he is every strong enough to play in the NHL but he's got skill! Lehkonen, McCarron, DLR will be NHL players

2014-2016: Too early to tell.


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05-15-2017, 02:11 PM
  #98
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So then I guess you will give Sly a ton of credit for Ghetto and Hudon who have had better AHL careers and in Ghetto's case better NHL career than Leblanc?
Why would we give Sly credit for Gheto? When Gheto left the organization he was worth nothing. Absolutely nothing. He was not claimed on waivers, he was traded for a player i'm not sure is an NHLer and he was not good enough to beat scrubs lile King, Ott and Martinsen for a roster spot. It's not like we did not give him a chance. He played 83 games with us. More than enough to prove he was worth more than the Norwegian hero.

Anything that happen with Gheto after that is not because of Sly. It's because of his new coaches.

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05-15-2017, 02:14 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by OnTheRun View Post
2009 ISS FINAL RANKINGS : JUNE

1. JOHN TAVARES C 6'0" 198 L Sep 20/90 London OHL
2. MATT DUCHENE C 5'11" 198 L Jan 16/91 Brampton OHL
3. VICTOR HEDMAN D 6'6" 220 L Dec 18/90 Modo SweE
4. M. PAAJARVI-SVENSSON LW 6'1" 200 L Apr 12/91 Timra SweE
5. EVANDER KANE C 5'11" 160 L Aug 01/91 Vancouver WHL
6. BRAYDEN SCHENN C 6'0" 196 L Aug 22/91 Brandon WHL
7. JARED COWEN D 6'5" 218 L Jan 25/91 Spokane WHL
8. NAZEM KADRI C 6'1" 177 L Oct 06/90 London OHL
9. OLIVER EKMAN-LARSSON D 6'2" 176 L Oct 10/90 Leksands SweAl
10. DMITRI KULIKOV D 6'1" 195 L Oct 29/90 Drummondville QMJHL
11. JACOB JOSEFSON C 6'0" 187 L Mar 02/91 Djurgarden SweE
12. LOUIS LEBLANC C 5'11" 170 R Jan 26/91 Omaha USHL
13. RYAN ELLIS D 5'10" 173 R Jan 03/91 Windsor OHL
14. JORDAN SCHROEDER RW 5'8" 165 R Sep 29/90 U of MN WCHA
15. PETER HOLLAND C 6'2" 190 L Jan 14/91 Guelph OHL
16. JOHN MOORE D 6'2" 189 L Nov 19/90 Chicago USHL
17. LANDON FERRARO RW 6'0" 170 R Aug 08/91 Red Deer WHL
18. DREW SHORE C 6'2" 198 R Jan 29/91 USA18 NTDP
19. SCOTT GLENNIE C 6'1" 180 R Feb 22/91 Brandon WHL
20. ZACK KASSIAN RW 6'3" 205 R Jan 24/91 Peterborough OHL
21. NICK LEDDY D 5'11" 179 L Mar 20/91 Eden Prairie MN-HS
22. DAVID RUNDBLAD R 6'2 189 R Oct 8/90 Skelleftea SweE
23. KYLE PALMIERI C 5'10" 191 R Feb 1/91 USA18 NTDP
24. CHRIS KREIDER LW 6'2" 201 L Apr 30/91 Andover MA-HS
25. JORDAN CARON C 6'2" 200 L Nov 02/90 Rimouski QMJHL
26. ETHAN WEREK C 6'0" 191 L June 7/91 Kingston OHL
27. JEREMY MORIN C 5'10" 160 R Apr 16/91 USA18 NTDP
28. JOONAS NATTINEN C 6'2" 180 R Mar 03/91 Espoo FinJr
29. DMITRI ORLOV F 6'0" 197 L Jul 23/91 Novokuznetsk KHL
30. SIMON DESPRES LW 6'3" 205 L Jul 27/91 Saint John QMJHL

Also CSS: http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=31411



As always, I attack your **** poor argument, not you. There is zero merit in drafting in hindsight.
So how do we judge a scout? Just make sure they took the player that CSS ranked at their pick? So why have a scout just print the list you provided and draft that way?

TT's 1st round picks have not been good outside of 2 years and if you look at all the players he missed out on its even worse. Which part of that are you disagreeing with outside of saying my post has no merit? Because TT is great at reading a CSS list? CSS list are not always right and can be wrong! Just because a guy is ranked 12th doesn't mean he will be the 12th best player. And I would prefer a scout who can see when that list is wrong and make the right choice rather than rigidly sticking to a list because the almighty CSS says so.

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05-15-2017, 02:14 PM
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le_sean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
Timmins had a bad 2008-2011 draft span because he was missing 5 of 12 picks in the 1st 3 rounds (Gainey traded them away). Add to having 2 bad 1st round picks (Tinordi and Leblanc) and it's a disaster span of 4 years!
I mean he should be fired simply for convincing the GM to trade up for Jarred ****ing Tinordi.

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