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Time for a Drafting and Development Change

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Old
05-15-2017, 02:19 PM
  #101
scrubadam
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Originally Posted by LaP View Post
Why would we give Sly credit for Gheto? When Gheto left the organization he was worth nothing. Absolutely nothing. He was not claimed on waivers, he was traded for a player i'm not sure is an NHLer and he was not good enough to beat scrubs lile King, Ott and Martinsen for a roster spot. It's not like we did not give him a chance. He played 83 games with us. More than enough to prove he was worth more than the Norwegian hero.

Anything that happen with Gheto after that is not because of Sly. It's because of his new coaches.
Well why do we say he ruined Leblanc though? When Leblanc left MTL he didn't do anything either.

Ghetto has had a better AHL career and NHL career then Leblanc. Even if he doesn't have much value etc... he has done better than the great Leblanc even though he spent a lot of time with Sly and MT.

It makes no sense to me to say "development" ruined Leblanc, when another player who went under this "development" has much more sucsess but their should be no credit.

How about no credit for Ghetto, but no bashing for Leblanc? Makes more sense to me.

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05-15-2017, 02:21 PM
  #102
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I mean he should be fired simply for convincing the GM to trade up for Jarred ****ing Tinordi.
I give the benefit of the doubt to TT on that one and say that was on Gauthier. Seems like a move he would do. Fall in love with the blood lines rather than the player.

In the year we need a C we trade up for a D and leave Kuznetzov on the table. The year before we take Leblanc. Universe laughing at the habs drafting. It's a comedy of errors.

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05-15-2017, 02:21 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by OnTheRun View Post
Leblanc, Tinordi and Nygren. So that's 3 prospect with upsides wasted. Add the 2 graduated and you're at 5 for 4 draft years.

And for the record management is awful before we start looking in the general direction of the draft/development, so it doesn't really have any bearing on anything.
So you think that if these guys were drafted by another organization, they would of been developed better and be NHL players today?

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05-15-2017, 02:23 PM
  #104
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What exactly is the purpose of Lapointe? What has he contributed? What were his ties to the Habs, and his experience, that made him the right job candidate?
I think you could ask those same questions about many if the personnel that are employed by the Habs, right down to some of the players themselves.

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05-15-2017, 02:26 PM
  #105
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I mean he should be fired simply for convincing the GM to trade up for Jarred ****ing Tinordi.
In hindsight, this was a very bad move. I do remember this. At the time the Habs lacked size and TT thought he had something. Who did we miss out by drafting Tinordi in that draft year (in hindsight)?

Kuznetsov is the only guy I can see. Habs were not the only team who had busts from the 20-30 draft position in the 1st round.

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05-15-2017, 02:30 PM
  #106
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Well why do we say he ruined Leblanc though? When Leblanc left MTL he didn't do anything either.
I never said he ruined anybody. I don't give a **** if he ruined or not anyone. I don't evaluate people based on their failure i evaluate them bases on their success. Right now Sly has none of the later.

Maybe the difference between me and you is i think a good coach can make a difference between 20 and 24 years old. After that it's more difficult. It's not about ruining anybody. Coach don't ruin players who have what it takes. Players who have what it takes will make it despite everything. It's about helping struggling players becoming more than what they should have become. And i personally don't think Sly is good enough for that.

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05-15-2017, 02:30 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by HabsGorgeous View Post
In hindsight, this was a very bad move. I do remember this. At the time the Habs lacked size and TT thought he had something. Who did we miss out by drafting Tinordi in that draft year (in hindsight)?

Kuznetsov is the only guy I can see. Habs were not the only team who had busts from the 20-30 draft position in the 1st round.
You said it Kuznetsov! He would look good in our top 6 C position IMHO.

Habs lacked size on the back end when they chose Fischer over Giroux as well. Taking big lunks with no hockey sense is not a smart move.

Giroux/Kuz instead of busts Fishcer/Tinordi. Keep all the other busts and crap picks just change those 2 and I would be singing the praises of TT. Missing those 2 guys should be enough for people to open their eyes.

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05-15-2017, 02:35 PM
  #108
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I never said he ruined anybody. I don't give a **** if he ruined or not anyone. I don't evaluate people based on their failure i evaluate them bases on their success. Right now Sly has none of the later.
So I don't really get why you responded to my post?

And Ghetto/Hudon are smalll success for Sly. Both have had very good AHL campaigns. Ghetto for all intents purposes is an NHLer. Maybe a fringe one but at least an NHLer. Considering we are talking about 3rd and 5th rounders here thats pretty good.

Don't get me wrong I don't think Sly is great and he should be shown the door. He probably isn't a very good coach but the rosters he had to deal with weren't very good either. Its like blaming ARZ or EDM from 2/3 years ago for not making the playoffs when they have horrible rosters.

MB deserves the blame because he didn't stack his AHL team. You win in the AHL with vets. You need good prospects but again if a prospect is really good he will jump the AHL (AG/Galley/Lek).

Fire Sly, bring in someone better. Put some good AHL vets down there and the team probably does better. Look at this year thats practically what they did and the team actually made the playoffs!

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05-15-2017, 02:36 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
You said it Kuznetsov! He would look good in our top 6 C position IMHO.

Habs lacked size on the back end when they chose Fischer over Giroux as well. Taking big lunks with no hockey sense is not a smart move.

Giroux/Kuz instead of busts Fishcer/Tinordi. Keep all the other busts and crap picks just change those 2 and I would be singing the praises of TT. Missing those 2 guys should be enough for people to open their eyes.
I think TT is living on his 2007 draft year (RM, MP, PK). I think he's been great at finding guys in the later rounds but he has several bad 1st round picks. Remains to be seen how good McCarron, Scherbak, Juulsen are but they are all later 1st round picks.

How many other teams failed to snag Kuznetsov?



I do think that you can say the same things towards any other guy when we use hindsight evaluations. TT's tenure is tied to MB. Weather we like it or not, were stuck with them for a few years yet.


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05-15-2017, 02:37 PM
  #110
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So how do we judge a scout? Just make sure they took the player that CSS ranked at their pick? So why have a scout just print the list you provided and draft that way?

TT's 1st round picks have not been good outside of 2 years and if you look at all the players he missed out on its even worse. Which part of that are you disagreeing with outside of saying my post has no merit? Because TT is great at reading a CSS list? CSS list are not always right and can be wrong! Just because a guy is ranked 12th doesn't mean he will be the 12th best player. And I would prefer a scout who can see when that list is wrong and make the right choice rather than rigidly sticking to a list because the almighty CSS says so.
No **** Sherlock. Scouts don't have the benefit of (re)doing the 2009 draft in 2017. They have to do so with what they have at the time of the draft. Both list are there because Leblanc was widely see as a better prospect than Kreider/Palmeri in 2009. Again and again and again, the only reason you know the list is "wrong" is by the power of hockeydb, not your own knowledge of the draft/prospects/developments.

YOU claim Leblanc "just sucked" and wasn't developed poorly, yet the guy was good enough to be ranked 12/13th by 2 different scouting agencies and virtually ALL the people in the business had Leblanc in the 1st round, so why this guy is top30 if he "just suck"?


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05-15-2017, 02:42 PM
  #111
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In case some aren't clear on this, Trevor Timmins is not the head of amateur scouting anymore and hasn't been since 2013. That title is now held by Shane "Connor Crisp" Churla. Timmins is Vice Presdient of Player Personnel now.

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05-15-2017, 02:45 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by scrubadam View Post
I give the benefit of the doubt to TT on that one and say that was on Gauthier. Seems like a move he would do. Fall in love with the blood lines rather than the player.

In the year we need a C we trade up for a D and leave Kuznetzov on the table. The year before we take Leblanc. Universe laughing at the habs drafting. It's a comedy of errors.
I don't buy that. The GM wouldn't just trade up without listening to his scouts. That was all on Timmins. He certainly pushed for it or at the very least didn't say it wasn't worth the price.

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05-15-2017, 02:45 PM
  #113
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Molson lets the team spend to the max, he's paying two coaches right now while spending $5 million on our current head coach.

He allowed our GM to trade away our most marketable player and for our GM to take on a guy who got paid $12 million in actual dollars this past year in that trade... he's keeping his head out of hockey decisions and giving his GM the dollars to spend, Molson isn't the problem.
Being a bad executive is more than just being a cheap one. Molson is a bad executive.

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In case some aren't clear on this, Trevor Timmins is not the head of amateur scouting anymore and hasn't been since 2013. That title is now held by Shane "Connor Crisp" Churla. Timmins is Vice Presdient of Player Personnel now.
I didn't know that. Should be bolded.

Another BargainBin bum.

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05-15-2017, 02:45 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by badbrains View Post
In case some aren't clear on this, Trevor Timmins is not the head of amateur scouting anymore and hasn't been since 2013. That title is now held by Shane "Connor Crisp" Churla. Timmins is Vice Presdient of Player Personnel now.
So Timmins is only the guy who stands at the podium and says who the Habs draft each year? I want his job.

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05-15-2017, 02:47 PM
  #115
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Another BargainBin bum.
lol. Your classy. Is Julien a bargainBin bum too?

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05-15-2017, 02:47 PM
  #116
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No **** Sherlock. Scouts don't have the benefit of (re)doing the 2009 draft in 2017. They have to do so with what they have at the time of draft. Both list are there because Leblanc was widely see as a better prospect than Kreider/Palmeri in 2009. Again and again and again, the only reason you know the list is "wrong" is by the power of hockeydb, not your own knowledge of the draft/prospects/developments.

YOU claim Leblanc "just sucked" and wasn't developed poorly, yet the guy was good enough to be ranked 12/13th by 2 different scouting agencies and virtually ALL the people in the business had Leblanc in the 1st round, so why this guy is top30 if he "just suck"?
And what about all the other players that busted on that list as well? Or busted from other years. I mean scouts said Brule was a top 5 pick in 05 over a guy like Price and Kopitar how could they ever be wrong right?

These lists are ranking 17 year olds, they don't know how they will react 5 - 10 years down the line playing professional hockey for a living.

And you still are not answering how we should judge a scout without using hindsight? Why should I care if the pick seemed "good" at the time if it doesn't amount to anything?

So how do we judge the job TT did without hindisght? That also means that we can't say picks like Max/Price/PK were good either because thats using hindsight and HF boards to validate those picks.

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05-15-2017, 02:49 PM
  #117
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So Timmins is only the guy who stands at the podium and says who the Habs draft each year? I want his job.
Would you prefer Churla up there? lol. Have you seen the guy? Looks like he might have been hit in the head a few too many times. Would explain some of our recent picks, though.

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05-15-2017, 02:49 PM
  #118
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I don't buy that. The GM wouldn't just trade up without listening to his scouts. That was all on Timmins. He certainly pushed for it or at the very least didn't say it wasn't worth the price.
I have no proof and what you say is most likely true.

But I just look at Tinordi and I see Gauthier's fingerprints all over that pick. But OTOH TT did fall in love with Fishcer over Giroux so I can see him falling in love with Tinordi as well.

The less hockey sense a player has the higher I think he goes on TT's list.

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05-15-2017, 02:51 PM
  #119
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Not sure how you can think Leblanc was a bad pick. He excelled in every league and tournament he played in. He even had 11goals and 22 points in his first 31 AHL games. That is pretty impressive. Why do you think he was called up to the NHL that year when the Habs were one of the worst teams in the league? He did ok for a player coming out of junior with 10 points in 40 games. Nothing special, but signs did not point to being a complete bust.

And then Lefebvre took over the team and his development just stopped. If you do not think that the coach played a huge factor in this guys failure to develop (Obviously it's not all on Lefebvre, but he surely didn't help the kid) I'm not sure you will find a better example of it.
Not buying this. So you think Leblanc would be an NHL player today if he wasn't coached by Sly? Seriously? Don't you think he would or risen from the ranks in the KHL? Or do you hate MB's hire so much that Sly ruins players beyond repair?

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05-15-2017, 02:51 PM
  #120
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And what about all the other players that busted on that list as well? Or busted from other years. I mean scouts said Brule was a top 5 pick in 05 over a guy like Price and Kopitar how could they ever be wrong right?

These lists are ranking 17 year olds, they don't know how they will react 5 - 10 years down the line playing professional hockey for a living.

And you still are not answering how we should judge a scout without using hindsight? Why should I care if the pick seemed "good" at the time if it doesn't amount to anything?

So how do we judge the job TT did without hindisght? That also means that we can't say picks like Max/Price/PK were good either because thats using hindsight and HF boards to validate those picks.
Drafting is not a science. There are lot nuances, the best we can go with is a) what their rankings were at the time of the draft (were they a reach? were they fallers?) b) the scout's resume over the years and c) who realistically was the BPA based on rankings at the time. Picks like Leblanc were considered good at the time since that's where he was expected to be drafted regardless of what some people may say. If you have an incompetent coach at the AHL level and you're selecting late (which means that they will most likely have to pay their dues or develop in the minors), it doesn't matter if you're the best scout in the planet, that incompetent coach will cancel out any good you're doing.

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05-15-2017, 02:52 PM
  #121
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Well why do we say he ruined Leblanc though? When Leblanc left MTL he didn't do anything either.

Ghetto has had a better AHL career and NHL career then Leblanc. Even if he doesn't have much value etc... he has done better than the great Leblanc even though he spent a lot of time with Sly and MT.

It makes no sense to me to say "development" ruined Leblanc, when another player who went under this "development" has much more sucsess but their should be no credit.

How about no credit for Ghetto, but no bashing for Leblanc? Makes more sense to me.
Louis Leblanc is back at school now. Finishing what he should have done in the first place.

Louis Leblanc was the best Midget AAA player to have come out of that system in about 5-6 seasons. He broke records galore with Lac-St-Louis..He was a marvel to watch. I know, I saw him DOMINATE the play. His qualities, known to EVERYBODY, were : hockey sense (great hockey sense), grit, tremendous work ethic. What he was lacking: speed, because his skating was a bit awkward.

Guy goes to the Team Canada summer camp. He DOMINATES. Best player there. Pierre McGuire and others can't stop ranting and raving about the kid.

After chugging along, he makes the NHL, under Jacques Martin. Has a pretty promising first 40 games. Everybody likes what they see in him. Kids' confidence is through the roof. Maybe a bit much.

New management team comes on board. Says at camp that Leblanc needs to work his azz off because they are not impressed. Kid is a bit puzzled. Mixed signals. They cut him early. MAJOR BLOW. Kid is floored. Doesn't understand. They tell him that since he the 40 games didn't account for anything, his job wasn't garanteed. Needs to work on some things, they say. Kid starts with Hamilton totally floored. And Lefebvre tests his character and tells him that he should be looking at third line work, because that is what he's destined to if he ever makes it. Kid gets a major injury: high ankle sprain. Still trying to figure out what happened with his momentum, kid tries to come back sooner. Mistake. Doesn't look good. Fails miserably.

Next season, comes to camp very motivated. Starts very well.But gets cut practically right away. Kid's confidence is shot. They tell him he didn't train hard enough during summer. Didn't add any muscles. Truth is, guys, Louis Leblanc has great parents, very intelligent parents. Just like he is. Team wanted him on a juiced up program, they refused. He refused. Habs' brass got very unhappy.

He was done. In Montreal. His appetite for hockey, the business of hockey, everything went sour. He tried for a couple of seasons, here and there, but his heart and mind had left.

He called it quits and retunrned to Harvard. Brilliant kid, really. I wouldn't be surprised if he finishes in the hockey world one day as an executive.

Would he have made it if not for Habs' new way of thinking? Who knows. I can tell you that he was a far better hockey player at ANY level than Andrew ****ing Shaw. He was intelligent. He worked the boards like a mature pro. He is, in my opinion, the poster child for what we call: Ítre au mauvais endroit au mauvais moment.

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05-15-2017, 02:54 PM
  #122
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Would you prefer Churla up there? lol. Have you seen the guy? Looks like he might have been hit in the head a few too many times. Would explain some of our recent picks, though.
lol. Timmins/Bergevin has big time input and there are several conversations with the entire team. It's never just one guys decision.

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05-15-2017, 02:54 PM
  #123
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Louis Leblanc is back at school now. Finishing what he should have done in the first place.

Louis Leblanc was the best Midget AAA player to have come out of that system in about 5-6 seasons. He broke records galore with Lac-St-Louis..He was a marvel to watch. I know, I saw him DOMINATE the play. His qualities, known to EVERYBODY, were : hockey sense (great hockey sense), grit, tremendous work ethic. What he was lacking: speed, because his skating was a bit awkward.

Guy goes to the Team Canada summer camp. He DOMINATES. Best player there. Pierre McGuire and others can't stop ranting and raving about the kid.

After chugging along, he makes the NHL, under Jacques Martin. Has a pretty promising first 40 games. Everybody likes what they see in him. Kids' confidence is through the roof. Maybe a bit much.

New management team comes on board. Says at camp that Leblanc needs to work his azz off because they are not impressed. Kid is a bit puzzled. Mixed signals. They cut him early. MAJOR BLOW. Kid is floored. Doesn't understand. They tell him that since he the 40 games didn't account for anything, his job wasn't garanteed. Needs to work on some things, they say. Kid starts with Hamilton totally floored. And Lefebvre tests his character and tells him that he should be looking at third line work, because that is what he's destined to if he ever makes it. Kid gets a major injury: high ankle sprain. Still trying to figure out what happened with his momentum, kid tries to come back sooner. Mistake. Doesn't look good. Fails miserably.

Next season, comes to camp very motivated. Starts very well.But gets cut practically right away. Kid's confidence is shot. They tell him he didn't train hard enough during summer. Didn't add any muscles. Truth is, guys, Louis Leblanc has great parents, very intelligent parents. Just like he is. Team wanted him on a juiced up program, they refused. He refused. Habs' brass got very unhappy.

He was done. In Montreal. His appetite for hockey, the business of hockey, everything went sour. He tried for a couple of seasons, here and there, but his heart and mind had left.

He called it quits and retunrned to Harvard. Brilliant kid, really. I wouldn't be surprised if he finishes in the hockey world one day as an executive.

Would he have made it if not for Habs' new way of thinking? Who knows. I can tell you that he was a far better hockey player at ANY level than Andrew ****ing Shaw. He was intelligent. He worked the boards like a mature pro. He is, in my opinion, the poster child for what we call: Ítre au mauvais endroit au mauvais moment.
Great post and I completely agree. What I know of him and of people who know him would concur. Leblanc wasn't a bad pick, he was poorly handled. He could've done more himself, of course, but that's easy to say now.

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lol. Your classy. Is Julien a bargainBin bum too?
Julien is one of the folks in the system that doesn't have long-standing ties (that we know of) with BargainBin. Julien only came in because he was available and BargainBin needed to save his job.

He's not a bum, he's an accomplished coach in the NHL.

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05-15-2017, 02:56 PM
  #124
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Louis Leblanc is back at school now. Finishing what he should have done in the first place.

........

Would he have made it if not for Habs' new way of thinking? Who knows. I can tell you that he was a far better hockey player at ANY level than Andrew ****ing Shaw. He was intelligent. He worked the boards like a mature pro. He is, in my opinion, the poster child for what we call: Ítre au mauvais endroit au mauvais moment.
Always enjoy your posts. Thanks for this, certainly provides some perspective.

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05-15-2017, 02:57 PM
  #125
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I have no proof and what you say is most likely true.

But I just look at Tinordi and I see Gauthier's fingerprints all over that pick. But OTOH TT did fall in love with Fishcer over Giroux so I can see him falling in love with Tinordi as well.

The less hockey sense a player has the higher I think he goes on TT's list.
That's nonsense. If anything, other than the Predators' scouting staff, Timmins has probably one of the best eye for defenders in the league. Naming exceptions like Fischer (which one of his scouts pushed for big time) or Tinordi (who was still a late pick so who cares) doesn't cancel out McDonagh, Subban, Weber, Emelin, Streit plus guys like Juulsen, Mete, Lernout, Bourque and Sergachev. If anything, the only argument you can make is that Timmins has a hard time evaluating the hockey sense for forwards. Considering that the same can't be applied for defenders or goaltenders (Price, Halak, Lindgren, Condon, McNiven, Fucale, Hawkey), we should consider ourselves lucky. Nobody is perfect. As suggested by Whitesnake a few days ago, we should hire a specialist for forwards if anything.

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