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Jets Goaltending General Discussion Vol. 2

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Old
05-22-2017, 10:34 AM
  #101
Jets4Life
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Originally Posted by Eyeseeing View Post
Thanks for the link.
I posted a few times before that it appears the Hutch and Helle played better at other levels and then initially here as well.
This article lines up with my perception as well.
Not sure why anyone gets defensive when it's suggested that Flaherty could in fact be the problem with our goalies.
It's certainly an easy fix to find out.
Hopefully TNSE isn't totally blind to this....,

Hellebuyck, in particular, played lights out everywhere he went. NAHL, NCAA, AHL, World Championships. In the NHL, he was once again playing amazing for the first month or so. Then he regressed for the first time in his life.

Hutchinson moved up to take over the starting role for the AHL Ice Caps in 2014. He led them single handed to the Championship. Hutch played amazing, and actually ended up stealing the starting position from Pavelec for a month or so before regressing, and never recovering.

This is no coincidence. Flaherty just does not cut it as a competent goaile coach.

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05-22-2017, 10:35 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
That must explain why Hellebuyck started his NHL career with a 0.940% after a month, and was actually #1 in save percentage for a short period of time. But appearantly I'm wrong and Hellebuyck has always been terrible. It has nothing to do with Flaherty, that Helle is now mediocre, and played sub-par at the World Championships, after being named by the media the best goalie of the tournament two years ago. It must be my imagination.

It's all Hellebuyck's fault. Let's extend Flaherty's contract by 10 years. He's such an amazing goalie coach. It's just a huge coincidence that all his students play deteriorates significantly after a few months with Wade.
Haven't we established that SV% over a small sample size is meaningless? Bucky's weak glove hand and poor rebound control were evident the year I went to a few Moose games. Those flaws were there before Flaherty got his mitts on him. I'm not saying Flaherty is a good goalie coach but I'm also not prepared to say the problem starts and ends with him either.

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05-22-2017, 10:36 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post

If keeping Flaherty is just some loyalty thing to keep employees happy and content, then that points me to TNSE not really wanting to win.
Without question, it's loyalty. I would never say that TNSE does not want to win. However, I don't think it's their #1 priority.

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05-22-2017, 10:38 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by nobody important View Post
Haven't we established that SV% over a small sample size is meaningless? Bucky's weak glove hand and poor rebound control were evident the year I went to a few Moose games.
That must explain why he was so horrible with the Moose. It's inexplicable why he was not send down to the ECHL.

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05-22-2017, 10:43 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
Without question, it's loyalty. I would never say that TNSE does not want to win. However, I don't think it's their #1 priority.
One could say the same about loyalty as to why they never traded for a starter last year. And why they will probably protect helle at the xd and not trade for someone this offseason before xd. Does he deserve that loyalty. Some would rather have a true starter and expose helle.

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Old
05-22-2017, 10:43 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by puck stoppa View Post
Just watching the Worlds, I wonder if the Jets go after Pickard after the expansion draft. Im not sure what it would take but maybe swapping of picks? Giving the Avs our 2nd and getting some other picks swapped. It is a weaker draft after round one so I think this would be worth it. Pickard isn't my first choice but I think the Jets will look at him and he could be a tandem with Helly next season.

Pickard is a local boy. It would be great to obtain him. Plus he was coached by Dusty Imoo, the man that should have replaced Flaherty.

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05-22-2017, 10:51 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
Pickard is a local boy. It would be great to obtain him. Plus he was coached by Dusty Imoo, the man that should have replaced Flaherty.
The thing we should remember is at this point it's not 100% certain that all the assistants will be back.
I do hope Flaherty and Huddy are not returning.
Unless someone has heard differently?

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05-22-2017, 10:55 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
That must explain why he was so horrible with the Moose. It's inexplicable why he was not send down to the ECHL.
Sarcasm rarely strengthens one's position in a debate. I didn't say Bucky was horrible, just pointing out that Flaherty isn't necessarily making our goalies worse. A more valid criticism of Flaherty is that he also doesn't seem to be making them better.

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05-22-2017, 10:57 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Eyeseeing View Post
The thing we should remember is at this point it's not 100% certain that all the assistants will be back.
I do hope Flaherty and Huddy are not returning.
Unless someone has heard differently?
I'm pretty sure a comment was made by someone (Chevy?) at season's end that there would be no coaching changes.

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05-22-2017, 01:35 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by nobody important View Post
I'm pretty sure a comment was made by someone (Chevy?) at season's end that there would be no coaching changes.
Chevy said "he didn't expect any changes" or something like that? In sports that means nothing... but with the Jets it probably means no changes.

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05-22-2017, 02:01 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by nobody important View Post
Sarcasm rarely strengthens one's position in a debate. I didn't say Bucky was horrible, just pointing out that Flaherty isn't necessarily making our goalies worse. A more valid criticism of Flaherty is that he also doesn't seem to be making them better.
Neither does calling yourself nobody important and having that profile picture

Just sayin, since you're lecture on debating tactics.

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05-22-2017, 02:21 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
Hellebuyck, in particular, played lights out everywhere he went. NAHL, NCAA, AHL, World Championships. In the NHL, he was once again playing amazing for the first month or so. Then he regressed for the first time in his life.

Hutchinson moved up to take over the starting role for the AHL Ice Caps in 2014. He led them single handed to the Championship. Hutch played amazing, and actually ended up stealing the starting position from Pavelec for a month or so before regressing, and never recovering.

This is no coincidence. Flaherty just does not cut it as a competent goaile coach.
He has a less than seller glove, appears to be slow, can't handle the puck, and spends most of the game on his knees hoping something hits him - IMO.

Did he have these skills at one point and lose them due to poor coaching or is the speed and accuracy of the NHL game a bit beyond his reach - at least at this point.

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05-22-2017, 04:02 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by CorgisPer60 View Post
Quit with the strawman arguments. Chevy signing Pavelec to a poor contract and Flaherty being bad are not mutually exclusive. Pavelec is a garbage goaltender, and he barely played in the NHL last year. Hellebuyck and Hutchinson had a poor year all around. There is only one constant there.
They're all below average goaltenders?

Oh, but I guess you want me to conclude that Flaherty is holding them all back from superstardom, right?

Is that really your entire proof that Flaherty is a bad goalie coach?

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05-22-2017, 04:09 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
Hellebuyck, in particular, played lights out everywhere he went. NAHL, NCAA, AHL, World Championships. In the NHL, he was once again playing amazing for the first month or so. Then he regressed for the first time in his life.

Hutchinson moved up to take over the starting role for the AHL Ice Caps in 2014. He led them single handed to the Championship. Hutch played amazing, and actually ended up stealing the starting position from Pavelec for a month or so before regressing, and never recovering.

This is no coincidence. Flaherty just does not cut it as a competent goaile coach.
Wait, are you suggesting that Flaherty got in Hellebuyck's head within his first four weeks with the Jets and that's why Hellebuyck's performance tanked in his first year?

Like, are you REALLY suggesting zero accountability with the actual player?

Hey, I can make outlandish claims too. When Hutch had an extended time off last year, Flaherty coached him up and was solely responsible for Hutch's amazing finish to the year.



Sorry guys...no one here has any idea if Flaherty is actually any good at his job.

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05-22-2017, 04:16 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Guffman View Post

Sorry guys...no one here has any idea if Flaherty is actually any good at his job.
This is probably the most relevant thing you've posted in this thread.

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05-22-2017, 04:27 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by CorgisPer60 View Post
This is probably the most relevant thing you've posted in this thread.
Which goes contrary to your opinion, FYI.

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05-22-2017, 05:23 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Guffman View Post

Oh, but I guess you want me to conclude that Flaherty is holding them all back from superstardom, right?

Is that really your entire proof that Flaherty is a bad goalie coach?
6 years of the same ********. Tell me how good your forehead feels after repeatedly smashing your head against the wall.

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Originally Posted by Guffman View Post
Which goes contrary to your opinion, FYI.
Not really, but keep tooting the Flaherty horn, bucko. You don't know that he's good at his job, and we don't know that he's bad at his job. All we know is that the goalies haven't been that good. After 6 seasons of subpar goaltending, what will it take? Trading for a starter? Taking a chance on a backup on the verge of breaking out? Firing the goaltending coach? Status quo?

P.S. Wade Flaherty had 3 seasons with the Moose towards the end of his career, and ended up with a .887 SV% career in the NHL. Seems like a winning pedigree. *thumbs up*

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05-22-2017, 06:09 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by CorgisPer60 View Post
6 years of the same ********. Tell me how good your forehead feels after repeatedly smashing your head against the wall.



Not really, but keep tooting the Flaherty horn, bucko. You don't know that he's good at his job, and we don't know that he's bad at his job. All we know is that the goalies haven't been that good. After 6 seasons of subpar goaltending, what will it take? Trading for a starter? Taking a chance on a backup on the verge of breaking out? Firing the goaltending coach? Status quo?

P.S. Wade Flaherty had 3 seasons with the Moose towards the end of his career, and ended up with a .887 SV% career in the NHL. Seems like a winning pedigree. *thumbs up*
I am not tooting Flaherty's horn at all. I am not jumping to conclusions like you are based on very transient "evidence".

Most people are agreed that Pavelec never was a quality starter. It's not fair to blame Flaherty all these years because Pavelec was a below average goalie.

As for Hutch and Helle, they are unproven goalies (less than 3K NHL shots each). Their lack of success cannot automatically be attributed to Flaherty.

If Hellebuyck has a .920 season next year, do we applaud Flaherty? Seems like the players have zero accountability and Flaherty is the make or break factor here...at least according to some of you.

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05-22-2017, 06:55 PM
  #119
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My feeling about Flaherty is that replacing him is a relatively cheap fix that is unlikely to make the Jets' goaltending worse and reasonably likely to improve it. I'd consider it even if I liked the guy (I don't) as a coach for those reasons alone. Given that the Jets have now suffered through 6 years of subpar goaltending and are in the process of potentially ruining at least one and maybe more high-potential goalies, replacing Flaherty seems like a slam-dunk to me, whether or not I have cast-iron assurances that he's the problem.

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05-22-2017, 07:58 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Guffman View Post
I am not tooting Flaherty's horn at all. I am not jumping to conclusions like you are based on very transient "evidence".

Most people are agreed that Pavelec never was a quality starter. It's not fair to blame Flaherty all these years because Pavelec was a below average goalie.

As for Hutch and Helle, they are unproven goalies (less than 3K NHL shots each). Their lack of success cannot automatically be attributed to Flaherty.

If Hellebuyck has a .920 season next year, do we applaud Flaherty? Seems like the players have zero accountability and Flaherty is the make or break factor here...at least according to some of you.
It would be hard to believe that Flaherty and Chevy did not have extensive discussions about Pavelec's ability before Chevy and TNSE extended Pavs for 5 more years after the 2011/2012 season. It would be even harder to believe that TNSE would have not listened to Flaherty's input before shelling out $19.5 million on Pavs. The contract had both term and $$$$$. Many in the organization thought Pavs was much more than a below average goalie or he would never have gotten the $$ and term and you can bet that Flaherty was one of them.

If Flaherty thought Pavs was below average and didn't advise his bosses or his bosses failed to listen that is an entirely different story. We will likely never know.

We did get some snippets of info over the years.

Quote:
Aside from the technical aspects of the position, one thing Pavelec has been working on is being able to deliver solid performances on a regular basis.

"That's what you want from your goaltender. You don't want a guy who is going to play a light's out game and then be average. You want him to play at a high level consistently," said Flaherty. "That's one thing we've been trying to work with (Pavelec), can you have him play at that high level for a long time. Are we there yet? I don't know. We'll see. That's the goal. He knows it, I know it and we're working towards it."

When Pavelec is on top of his game, the Jets believe they can compete with anybody.
http://www.wellandtribune.ca/2013/04...-league-dreams

Quote:
"Lots of people are talking about what he's changed so much," Flaherty said on the weekend, about the team's recently sharp No. 1 netminder. "I can tell you, there's not a lot that's changed as far as his off-season performances. We just did it in different routines and having him have different mindsets, a different focus towards certain things.

"That's what he's really done. To say he's in much better shape than before, last year, that's not correct. He was in good shape last year. It's not dramatic here. The mental side of the game is the key thing for a goaltender."
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...282104531.html

Quote:
Cheveldayoff and his hockey operations department don't believe Pavelec is a lost cause. They have bet a lot on Pavelec. First with a multi-year contract and then with their refusal to abandon him this summer.

Jets management loves his ability to make the flashy, athletic save. It's the fundamentals, that have given Pavelec a reputation for inconsistency.

Sharper focus and defined practice habits are areas Pavelec can improve, leading to better play in games.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/spo...274435641.html

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05-22-2017, 08:10 PM
  #121
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While I can agree that Helle's glove hand needs work, his approach to goaltending changed in the two years he was in the NHL under Flaherty's tutelage. Throughout Helle's career he's been a big, quiet goaltender, moving typically within his crease only to make saves. Over his time with the big club you can note his style changed to emulate, of all things, Pavelec. He ranged farther afield and left his crease more readily. He lacks Pavelec's athleticism and moved to a style that he isn't suited to. I suspect that Helle didn't decide to do that on his own. To me that indicates a role that Flaherty is playing and it has affected Helle's effectiveness. Perhaps his development simply stalled but that seems somewhat surprising that as he achieved each 'next level' in hockey he was capable of performing at that level. He's shown flashes in the NHL but the longer he's been with the Jets the less well he's played. Hmm.

As for Pavelec, if you go back in time to the signing of that contract you'll note many here were quite hopeful and considered it a solid signing. That goes beyond the Jets community as well, the thread on the free agent board echoed that sentiment as well. It appears the vast majority were both hopeful and wrong. We can all sit back with hindsight now and say the signing was wrong but a decent number of long standing and knowledgeable posters from this board were ok with that signing. Dig up the threads if they still exist and you'll see it.

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05-22-2017, 10:12 PM
  #122
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If we don't get a top flight goalie like Rinne, we won't go anywhere in the playoffs.

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05-22-2017, 11:19 PM
  #123
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If we don't get a top flight goalie like Rinne, we won't go anywhere in the playoffs.
There is absolutely no arguing that! Today's performance by Bernier further amplifies that point.

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05-23-2017, 12:48 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by CorgisPer60 View Post
Answer me this: What is the most consistent thing about our goaltending for the past 6 years?

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2017/...llebuyck-price
That article is purely speculative trash wrapped in just enough modal markers that they won't have to publish a retraction.

There is so much random variation in goaltending performance that the **** poor support the author offers for their hypothesis--that a good goalie once got a new goalie coach--is meaninglessly anecdotal.

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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Is there proof that Flaherty has made our goalies worse? They all seem to struggle with him as the coach, but that's not proof.

Is there proof that Flaherty has made the goalies better? Well, given the results I would say no, but again.. is that proof?

What I will say is that goaltender coaches are a dime-a-dozen, and there is no reason what so ever to keep Flaherty and not try someone else. What's the harm? It's not like it will get any worse. The Jets could have no goalie coach and I can't imagine it being any worse.

If keeping Flaherty is just some loyalty thing to keep employees happy and content, then that points me to TNSE not really wanting to win.
Why didn't crippling loyalty extend to Noel, Pearn, or everyone's favourite saviour Dusty 'of Nazareth' Imoo?

I agree with the rest of your post, though.

I'm not even that opposed to moving on from Flaherty, but everyone's misplaced certainty that he's the problem is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Guffman View Post
Wait, are you suggesting that Flaherty got in Hellebuyck's head within his first four weeks with the Jets and that's why Hellebuyck's performance tanked in his first year?

Like, are you REALLY suggesting zero accountability with the actual player?

Hey, I can make outlandish claims too. When Hutch had an extended time off last year, Flaherty coached him up and was solely responsible for Hutch's amazing finish to the year.



Sorry guys...no one here has any idea if Flaherty is actually any good at his job.
Agreed.

[mod]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorgisPer60 View Post
You don't know that he's good at his job, and we don't know that he's bad at his job.
That's the whole point and I don't know how you can continaully rail against Flaherty after having admitted this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorgisPer60 View Post
P.S. Wade Flaherty had 3 seasons with the Moose towards the end of his career, and ended up with a .887 SV% career in the NHL. Seems like a winning pedigree. *thumbs up*
How is this relevant at all?

The great Stephane Waite never even made it to the NHL.

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Originally Posted by blues10 View Post
Pavelec lost the starting job weeks into the season after that article was written.


Last edited by YWGinYYZ: 05-23-2017 at 04:26 AM. Reason: natd
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05-23-2017, 03:04 AM
  #125
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That's the whole point and I don't know how you can continaully rail against Flaherty after having admitted this.
Because even after changing goaltenders, we still have the same **** in net. After six seasons, it's still the same. What's the only one ****ing thing that's still the same after all that time? That's the point everybody is drawing from. Nobody knows for certain if Wade Flaherty is the problem or not, but at this point, what's the harm? People are tired of still having crap goaltending after six seasons.

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