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Marc Bergevin - Who Needs Skill When You Can Throw the Puck in Your Own Net Edition

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05-16-2017, 05:37 PM
  #76
OnTheRun
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
And get this:



What is Sly's record? Playoff participations? Finals participation?

Bergevin is way too slow on this one. It was clear Sylvain Lefebvre was not up to the task 3 years ago.
164-168-48 | 1 (1 round) | 0

It's okay tho, Lezero is totally not at fault.

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05-16-2017, 05:38 PM
  #77
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I remember similar reports about Carey Price a few years back.
Habs should of traded his a$$

Seriously Though, I don't pay much attention to this kind of stuff. I remember my early 20's...well kind of
I'm not judging their behavior or choice of lifestyle, just reprised what was said about them -- the issue is one that has been longstanding -- the Habs have always been anal about certain types of behavior and many players have been moved on account of similar actions in the past. I don't think that has changed much.

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05-16-2017, 05:39 PM
  #78
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You know there are more ways to hold coaches accountable then firing them.

Because you know...once you fire them, they're no longer accountable for anything lol
Not sure I understand you. So holding people accountable is giving them other jobs in the organization? If you happen to find that the guy is bad at developing players....what job do you give him? Assistant coach in the NHL for d-men? Why would you do that? Development coach? How the heck is he then qualify for that?

I don't get it man. When NHL coaches are fired....are they demoted into something else? Why should it be different for AHL coaches?

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05-16-2017, 05:41 PM
  #79
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And the Rangers fired their AHL coach without naming a replacement.

Rumors are Bergevin is looking for Lefebvre to remain within the organization in some capacity, which if founded, completely reeks.
I can't wait to read up on the hysteria when the Habs announced they've reassigned SL to become Assistant to the Travel Secretary

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05-16-2017, 05:44 PM
  #80
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I'm not judging their behavior or choice of lifestyle, just reprised what was said about them -- the issue is one that has been longstanding -- the Habs have always been anal about certain types of behavior and many players have been moved on account of similar actions in the past. I don't think that has changed much.
Yes. This is literally "Company policies", doesn't matter who is the coach/GM there are stuffs you can't do/be involved in as a member of the Habs.

Pateryn's girlfriend going ballistic on social media (of all place) is one example.

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05-16-2017, 05:46 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by ArtPeur View Post
See the other links I put in:

“We’ve identified character players who compete hard, players we feel have an upside, and now it’s up to our development people to work with them,” Timmins said.

that's after 2015 draft

Edit. If it was really made up, why would someone write this, then? (whoever she is, I don't really care)

http://thehockeywriters.com/montreal...cter-and-grit/
you're not following the conversation, this is the first post that I quoted:

"all we hear from the organization is that they draft and develop kids with character..."

This is made up, it's not all we hear lol.... They even said it in 2012 "we're looking to draft talent."

If the Habs have the choice between a talented player like Sergachev or character like Juulsen, who would they chose? Talent will always comes first.

Why did Bergevin signed Semin in 2015, why didnt he signed a character and grit player instead?

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05-16-2017, 05:46 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Not sure I understand you. So holding people accountable is giving them other jobs in the organization? If you happen to find that the guy is bad at developing players....what job do you give him? Assistant coach in the NHL for d-men? Why would you do that? Development coach? How the heck is he then qualify for that?

I don't get it man. When NHL coaches are fired....are they demoted into something else? Why should it be different for AHL coaches?
Well I was being kind of facetious...so wasn't completely serious

But the "fire everyone" squad does make me laugh.

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05-16-2017, 05:47 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I can't wait to read up on the hysteria when the Habs announced they've reassigned SL to become Assistant to the Travel Secretary
George costanza?

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05-16-2017, 05:48 PM
  #84
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Well I was being kind of facetious...so wasn't completely serious

But the "fire everyone" squad does make me laugh.
Well after all this time....this is where we are at. Fire everyone after 1 year in a row...sure. Laughable. After 5 years. That's my limit.

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05-16-2017, 05:48 PM
  #85
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If Flyers take Galchenyuk, Beaulieu, 1st for Claude Giroux then they're gone.
If they don't they're idiots.

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05-16-2017, 05:48 PM
  #86
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George costanza?
The one and only...

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05-16-2017, 05:51 PM
  #87
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Well after all this time....this is where we are at. Fire everyone after 1 year in a row...sure. Laughable. After 5 years. That's my limit.
Short of firing everyone...I'd settle for the people in place doing a better job of doing their jobs

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05-16-2017, 06:03 PM
  #88
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can't wait for the new acquisitions!!!!



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05-16-2017, 06:04 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Mr Jackpot View Post
you're not following the conversation, this is the first post that I quoted:

"all we hear from the organization is that they draft and develop kids with character..."

This is made up, it's not all we hear lol.... They even said it in 2012 "we're looking to draft talent."

If the Habs have the choice between a talented player like Sergachev or character like Juulsen, who would they chose? Talent will always comes first.

Why did Bergevin signed Semin in 2015, why didnt he signed a character and grit player instead?
Why did they draft Connor Crisp instead of Anthony Duclair, then? I'm not saying they value Character over Talent, it's just that they really put a lot of focus on drafting (and trading for) "Character" players. I agree that they are getting some skilled players like Semin, Radulov, Lehkonen, Andrighetto and others.. but isn't it weird that they always talk about "how this player has some good character"?

McCarron or Hartman?

.. and you can't say they got many skilled players at the trade deadline.

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05-16-2017, 06:06 PM
  #90
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can't wait for the new acquisitions!!!!

It wasn't so long ago that the catch phrase used to be "pas de nains!".

How times have changed.

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05-16-2017, 06:06 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by ArtPeur View Post
Why did they draft Connor Crisp instead of Anthony Duclair, then? I'm not saying they value Character over Talent, it's just that they really put a lot of focus on drafting (and trading for) "Character" players. I agree that they are getting some skilled players like Semin, Radulov, Lehkonen, Andrighetto and others.. but isn't it weird that they always talk about "how this player has some good character"?

McCarron or Hartman?
The whole character thing is interested...because when MB took over, I agreed with him that this team needed more character.

He's just gone way overboard and it's bled into different sectors of the organization, from pro scouting to amateur scouting to personnel hires at the coaching and management level.

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05-16-2017, 06:16 PM
  #92
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The last thread was finished, but here are my responses, sorry in advance for the wall of text

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This is a perfect example...

See Galchenyuk seeked out help on his OWN. He did that of his own volition. That's a good step, but I can assure you, Galchenyuk did other things off the ice that negatively affected him (not even trying to get in specifics).

As for why the Habs don't have guys ready and willing to work with guys on certain aspects...that's simply not true, they do.

Certain players take advantage of those benefits, others choose not too.

Again, this is the pros...nobody is going to force you to become a better player, you do that on your own, there's simply not enough practice time for to do what you're suggesting they should do here on a full time basis. It's not quite how it works.

The team/coaches have players outside of games for a limited amount of time, anything beyond that is on the player.
The fact that Galchenyuk had to go outside of the organisation to get help is a big problem and it shows that we aren't providing the necessary teachers. If we were he would have worked with them instead of going outside of the organization. And forcing players to make an extra effort to become better means some will choose not to do it. That's not babying them, it's just reality.

Instituting a culture where everyone puts in that extra time, means that when a young guy makes the team and he sees everyone around him putting that extra time, he'll more then likely follow suit and also put in the extra time. It's exactly like every other job.

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why do people keep posting anecdotes from their personal lives...we can't compare what we do everyday to elite professional athletes.
Because they are human beings like everyone else. Expecting them to be completely different mentally is nonsense. They'll have good days and bad just like everyone else, they have to deal with all the mental challenges everyone else deals with. And like everyone else they'll work harder if they enjoy going to work everyday, if they hat going to work because their boss is constantly on their ass they won't put that extra effort.

It's exactly the same logic used when a team "tunes out the coach". They are still professionals, yet the effort level is down. With vets, then all you have to do is get them to start listening and working hard again and they're back to normal. For a prospect who is still developing/learning he sets his development back or causes him to learn the wrong lessons.

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Agreed they can be fixed...are you aware of examples of players who the team decided to just not help them with this specific issue?
How about Galchenyuk and faceoffs, as already pointed out, he had to go out on his own to improve things. So clearly they didn't offer to help him despite claiming it was an area he needed to work on for the past 5 years.

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Agreed - but players are replaceable...if you won't do the job, they'll find someone who will.

I've never promoted this 'mentality'...but there's only so much you can do for a player. At a certain point, when you've exhausted all resources, you have to cut bait.
Players aren't easily replaceable, this is a high skill field with a limited pool of players who can actually go out and make a difference. That's why they get paid millions of dollars, because they can't just take anyone and plug them in.

There will always be some players who are lost causes. But the vast majority of players don't fall into that category, you are taking the outliers just so you can absolve the responsibilities of management.

Let's say you have a prospect that needs to work on his skating. The offseason comes around and you can do one of the following:

A) Tell the player he needs to work on his skating this offseason and leave him alone until training camp.

B) Tell the player he needs to work on his skating this offseason and give him the phone number of a guy he can work with

C) Tell the player he needs to work on his skating this offseason, organize/plan out the schedule for the sessions with said player, hire the skating coach for those sessions, check in on him to make sure he's going how well he's improving and assuming he is working encourage him.

Tell me which option has the biggest chance of helping the player? Sure some will put in the work no matter what option, some will not put in the work regardless, but the vast majority would benefit from option C instead of option A.

And it's mind boggling that a team with such an unlimited budget would have a laissez faire attitude when the GM's entire plan of building through the draft depends on our prospects succeeding.

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Originally Posted by Belial View Post
This doesn't apply here at all.

The kid put's in the effort and works hard for himself. If he decides to sulk and have a bad attitude he's not hurting anyone but his chances to make the NHL.
He's not just hurting ourselves, he's hurting our organization because he's an asset who we will depend upon for our success. I mean seriously you don't think we as an organisation have been hurt by the lack of NHLers that came out of the 09-11 drafts?

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Old
05-16-2017, 06:18 PM
  #93
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The whole character thing is interested...because when MB took over, I agreed with him that this team needed more character.

He's just gone way overboard and it's bled into different sectors of the organization, from pro scouting to amateur scouting to personnel hires at the coaching and management level.
It's all made up, don't bother

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05-16-2017, 06:30 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Mr Jackpot View Post
Ok now you change the subject to free assets, first it was good LD

What about the 30 other teams, they all missed on these good LD/free assets? We could make a long list of teams that could use LD's

It just makes me laugh when people talk about the Leafs like they are the best in the world by far... "oh looks at the leafs bro, they are so gooood" "oh look bro the leafs acquired 2 good LD's !!!"
Never said that about the Leafs but they should be commended seeing as how they got Zaitsev who was a big part of their defence. Now they see something in these two and are taking a shot.

I'll criticize Bergevin until he does something noteworthy. Shipachyov, fail; Borgman and Rosen, fail. Two big areas of need.

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05-16-2017, 06:31 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
And get this:



What is Sly's record? Playoff participations? Finals participation?

Bergevin is way too slow on this one. It was clear Sylvain Lefebvre was not up to the task 3 years ago.
That's why I want SL canned.

Whether or not he's the best development coach is one thing but if you're not even competing in pressure games then there's no winning culture, no big game experience, etc...

It's not enough.

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05-16-2017, 06:32 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
The whole character thing is interested...because when MB took over, I agreed with him that this team needed more character.

He's just gone way overboard and it's bled into different sectors of the organization, from pro scouting to amateur scouting to personnel hires at the coaching and management level.
Not sure if it's that it went "overboard"... I think when you look at the body of work, decision making & behaviour, it's a more accurate assessment to suggest that MB simply isn't equipped to evaluate, or demonstrate, real character.

the excuses, the finger pointing, the nepotism & cronyism, the complete inability to evaluate or cultivate leadership...

There's been very little character to be found in his leadership & management approach, perhaps he simply isn't capable of understanding what character actually is, let alone be responsible for cultivating a organizational culture of it

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05-16-2017, 06:35 PM
  #97
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Not sure if it's that it went "overboard"... I think when you look at the body of work, decision making & behaviour, it's a more accurate assessment to suggest that MB simply isn't equipped to evaluate, or demonstrate, real character.

the excuses, the finger pointing, the nepotism & cronyism, the complete inability to evaluate or cultivate leadership...

There's been very little character to be found in his leadership & management approach, perhaps he simply isn't capable of understanding what character actually is, let alone be responsible for cultivating a organizational culture of it
That's fair and well thought out criticism

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05-16-2017, 06:36 PM
  #98
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I feel like MB wants to play a team that's coachable and hard to play against.

All of which is great.

Thing is one of the main things in being hard to play against is actually scoring.

That's what makes certain guys great.

I like that we have guys like Emelin who make people a little hesitant to carry the puck in the zone when he's on.

I'd also like teams to be scared of us when we're going the other way. Something tells me they aren't.

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05-16-2017, 06:44 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I feel like MB wants to play a team that's coachable and hard to play against.

All of which is great.

Thing is one of the main things in being hard to play against is actually scoring.

That's what makes certain guys great.

I like that we have guys like Emelin who make people a little hesitant to carry the puck in the zone when he's on.

I'd also like teams to be scared of us when we're going the other way. Something tells me they aren't.
I agree that this is precisely the case. Thing is his definition of hard to play against, I assume is wearing the opposition down with constant heavy forecheck and finishing checks.

I view hard to play against as a team that makes you pay on the scoreboard. I think his definition of hard to play against is flawed, hence the current position of the team: Shaw,King,Martinsen,Ott,Weber,Emelin etc....

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05-16-2017, 06:59 PM
  #100
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I agree that this is precisely the case. Thing is his definition of hard to play against, I assume is wearing the opposition down with constant heavy forecheck and finishing checks.

I view hard to play against as a team that makes you pay on the scoreboard. I think his definition of hard to play against is flawed, hence the current position of the team: Shaw,King,Martinsen,Ott,Weber,Emelin etc....
Nothing wrong with all the guys you mentioned but as I said, it's a two-way street.

Right now the biggest fear a team has is Carey Price and once they score enough goals against him they shut it down in typical new NHL fashion.

Then what? They do they back up and give Pacioretty too much space when he streaks down the wing? Nope. Do they worry that our center will create something out of nothing? Nope.

90% of teams go 1-3-1 in a playoff game after having the lead, they just do.

If you have no star talent no one will try to overcompensate. No one will lose their man to have 2 guys on one.

Look at the real stars of the league and you'll see players leave their position in real of a karlsson, Crosby, mcdavid, etc... move.

So yeah, I like the Emelin, Shaw, etc... No problem. Keep up the pace, grind it out, that's good.

But when we go other way...now what? Perimeter shots as they take the man or clog up neutral zone?

We need firepower because at some point one of our talented forwards will beat their weakest link. It only takes one talented player to break loose and get free.

MB's legacy will depend on if he can address this.

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