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Kostitsyn vs Tavares

View Poll Results: Rookie of the year award
Kostitsyn 25 25.00%
Tavares 75 75.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-29-2006, 09:46 PM
  #26
Pothier
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Originally Posted by faucette78
i agree...you would have to put Couture up there as well. Good season with the 67's
Another 3 points tonight in a 4-3 win against the Petes!

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03-29-2006, 10:01 PM
  #27
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Tavares

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03-30-2006, 12:42 PM
  #28
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This is a pretty funny topic, tough to believe Kostitsyn is getting votes...

One thing of note about Tavares; His numbers this year trumped those of Spezza, when Spezza was a double underager.

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03-30-2006, 01:26 PM
  #29
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Imagine what Tavares will be like in his draft year, that shall be his FOUTH season, and after that he can play ANOTHER season. Just scary.

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03-30-2006, 03:05 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomhower
This is a pretty funny topic, tough to believe Kostitsyn is getting votes...

One thing of note about Tavares; His numbers this year trumped those of Spezza, when Spezza was a double underager.
One thing people should remember is age is irrelevent when voting for rookie of the year.

Tavares got less points in more games with more playing time on a crappy team with no consequences if he decided not to play defense or pass.

Kostitsyn had to learn a new language, adjust to a completely different playing style and actually *earn* his minutes on a *good* team that didn't need him and isn't grooming him to be their star for many years to come. Kostitsyn's only real advantage apart from age was being able to play on the knights PP.

Tavares deserves it but people are exaggerating just how much he deserves it because of his youth.

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03-30-2006, 03:31 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasincanada
One thing people should remember is age is irrelevent when voting for rookie of the year.
While I do agree that in a lot of cases, age is not taken into account, I believe it should always be a factor.

Yes, Kostitsyn has faced a lot of challenges entering the league this year (and faced them very, very well), but when you look at the difference in strength between a 15 year old and an 18 or 19 year old kid, I would think the older player would be expected to show up on the scoreboard more often. Most 18/19's are better players than 16 year olds, simply due to strength and experience. The fact that a 15 year old excelled is more impressive, IMO.

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03-30-2006, 04:56 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasincanada
One thing people should remember is age is irrelevent when voting for rookie of the year.

Tavares got less points in more games with more playing time on a crappy team with no consequences if he decided not to play defense or pass.

Kostitsyn had to learn a new language, adjust to a completely different playing style and actually *earn* his minutes on a *good* team that didn't need him and isn't grooming him to be their star for many years to come. .
-age doesn't play a factor, but learning a language does? This isn't english class!
- Midget to OHL is an easy style adjustment, just look at all those 16 year old bench warmers every year.
- Really looked to me Kostitsyn was on teh PP in the first game of the year. Maybe he earned it on his first two shifts at even strength.
-BTW what was Kostitsyn's consequence for all those needless penalties he'd take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasincanada
Kostitsyn's only real advantage apart from age was being able to play on the knights PP.
Yes, he certainly racked up those second assists on the PP. Tavares would have had triple the assists if he played with the Knights.

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03-30-2006, 06:33 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomhower
-age doesn't play a factor, but learning a language does? This isn't english class!
Fair enough - but I figured it was worth mentioning as Kostitsyn doesn't seem to be getting the respect I feel he deserves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomhower
- Really looked to me Kostitsyn was on teh PP in the first game of the year. Maybe he earned it on his first two shifts at even strength.
Hunter tries a ton of things and different rotations - but only sticks with what works. Kostitsyn was actually scoring better during the beginning of the season before Schremp and Hunter came back and he began to "benefit" so very much from being on the power play with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomhower
-BTW what was Kostitsyn's consequence for all those needless penalties he'd take?
78 whole penalty minutes? Schremp had 74 in less games - maybe Hunter should have benched the two of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boomhower
Yes, he certainly racked up those second assists on the PP. Tavares would have had triple the assists if he played with the Knights.
Quite easy to point to the knights PP as the reason Kostitsyn got so many points - but in reality being on a team with such big guns probably hurt his scoring more than it helped. Kostitsyn, IMO, would have better numbers if Schremp and Hunter never came back. That may sound crazy but I believe that to be the truth.

Nobody is doubting Tavares is quite possibly the future of the game and likely deserving of the ROY, but people who think he's the only one deserving consideration for it aren't giving Kostitsyn near the respect he deserves.

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03-31-2006, 02:46 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasincanada
Quite easy to point to the knights PP as the reason Kostitsyn got so many points - but in reality being on a team with such big guns probably hurt his scoring more than it helped. Kostitsyn, IMO, would have better numbers if Schremp and Hunter never came back. That may sound crazy but I believe that to be the truth.
Kostitsyn was not the focus of the other teams top defensive units. The Schremp line was the one being focused on, giving Kostitsyn less skilled players to play against.

Tavares was on the top line in Oshawa which means the other teams top pairings were up against him.

The winner is Tavares easily.

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03-31-2006, 11:25 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFinalWord
Kostitsyn was not the focus of the other teams top defensive units. The Schremp line was the one being focused on, giving Kostitsyn less skilled players to play against.

Tavares was on the top line in Oshawa which means the other teams top pairings were up against him.

The winner is Tavares easily.
While I agree that Tavares should win it:

It is not because of his age, because Thomas is right. While age works its way into people's heads, it really should not be a determining factor. Nobody rewards smaller players for doing more than larger ones, etc. It should be strictly based upon skills displayed, not handicaps. The players compared are first year guys, period.

As for facing top checking lines, I'm not buying that either. One could just as easily argue that good teams do not play as hard against Oshawa because they expect to win. On the other hand, teams are always up and playing their hardest against the teams at the top. I have seen plenty of that over the last 3 seasons against London.

Tavares does not have a lot of skilled guys playing with him. That is true. However, when you are one of the few skilled guys (regardless of rookie status) on a team, it is only logical that you will get most of the opportunities. You will stand out even more without competition. That would be a luxury Kostitsyn will not have in London with two of the best players in the CHL playing on his team. The two things cancel each other out, IMHO.

In any case, Tavares has displayed better overall skills. The margin is not as great as some suggest, simply because people are tacking on a lot of artificial rationalizations that really are not necessarily true. Or really are not part of the ROTL criteria.

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03-31-2006, 01:00 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan
In any case, Tavares has displayed better overall skills. The margin is not as great as some suggest, simply because people are tacking on a lot of artificial rationalizations that really are not necessarily true. Or really are not part of the ROTL criteria.
You don't think being 15 in a league full of fully developed 18, 19 and 20 year old players and putting up numbers that most of those players could only dream of isn't a big margin? Age does play a factor here. It has to do with the physical development of the player. Tavares scored a ridiculous amount of goals for someone his age. If he was 2 or 3 years older and stronger, like Kostitsyn, and came in as a rookie, you don't think he could score double what he did this year? Put them on a level playing field and Tavares would destroy the competition.

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03-31-2006, 01:41 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trippyime
You don't think being 15 in a league full of fully developed 18, 19 and 20 year old players and putting up numbers that most of those players could only dream of isn't a big margin? Age does play a factor here. It has to do with the physical development of the player. Tavares scored a ridiculous amount of goals for someone his age. If he was 2 or 3 years older and stronger, like Kostitsyn, and came in as a rookie, you don't think he could score double what he did this year? Put them on a level playing field and Tavares would destroy the competition.
Tavares is turning into the next Crosby - anybody who doesn't gush over him and proclaim him as "totally wicked awesome supreme" gets jumped on in these boards. I'm less than enthused over the fact that for the next 5 years we're going to be getting thousands of posts like this about Tavares destroying everyone for years to come.

Even something as simple as a few of us thinking Kostitsyn deserves some consideration for rookie of the year gets dismissed as ridiculous - even though Kostitsyn got more points with less playing time. Yes, it's because he is older and more physically mature, but that's irrelevent as far as ROY is determined.

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03-31-2006, 02:00 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasincanada
Tavares is turning into the next Crosby - anybody who doesn't gush over him and proclaim him as "totally wicked awesome supreme" gets jumped on in these boards. I'm less than enthused over the fact that for the next 5 years we're going to be getting thousands of posts like this about Tavares destroying everyone for years to come.

Even something as simple as a few of us thinking Kostitsyn deserves some consideration for rookie of the year gets dismissed as ridiculous - even though Kostitsyn got more points with less playing time. Yes, it's because he is older and more physically mature, but that's irrelevent as far as ROY is determined.
I don't really care how "sick" of Tavares you will become. I'm not jumping on anybody, I really could care less about Tavares, his team or his hype. Crosby's hype and media pisses me off too, but you can't deny the talent at such a young age, especially when both players are playing at a level well beyond their years against mature, grown men. I'm not denying Kostitsyn deserves some consideration, but how can age and maturity NOT be considered? The kid is 15! He's a little boy who probably can't even grow facial hair who scored 40+ goals on a team that stunk in a league full of grown teenagers and men.

If Kostitsyn got less playing time, why does that matter but age and maturity doesn't? By the way, can you prove he got less playing time? Last time I checked, time on ice isn't a stat the public has access to.

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03-31-2006, 02:36 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trippyime
I don't really care how "sick" of Tavares you will become. I'm not jumping on anybody, I really could care less about Tavares, his team or his hype. Crosby's hype and media pisses me off too, but you can't deny the talent at such a young age, especially when both players are playing at a level well beyond their years against mature, grown men. I'm not denying Kostitsyn deserves some consideration, but how can age and maturity NOT be considered? The kid is 15! He's a little boy who probably can't even grow facial hair who scored 40+ goals on a team that stunk in a league full of grown teenagers and men.
If age and maturity get taken into consideration then so should the fact that Kostitsyn had to learn a language, learn a new game and eat scary, different foods. The only things that really should be taken into consideration are how what they did during the time they had on the ice. Tavares wins that - even in my somewhat biased opinion - but not by nearly as much as others here think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trippyime
If Kostitsyn got less playing time, why does that matter but age and maturity doesn't? By the way, can you prove he got less playing time? Last time I checked, time on ice isn't a stat the public has access to.
I just think that certain things shouldn't get consideration for ROY - age, background, language etc etc. Playing time isn't one of them. I think that Tavares having to generally play against better defenders than Kostitsyn *does* deserve consideration in ROY voting, but I also think that Kostitsyn getting less playing time because he happens to be on a team with other really good players also deserves to be taken into account.

I know he got less playing time just by watching both teams play. It's not something that is widely disputed so I don't see the point in bringing up whether or not I can *prove* it.

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03-31-2006, 02:51 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasincanada
If age and maturity get taken into consideration then so should the fact that Kostitsyn had to learn a language, learn a new game and eat scary, different foods. The only things that really should be taken into consideration are how what they did during the time they had on the ice. Tavares wins that - even in my somewhat biased opinion - but not by nearly as much as others here think.



I just think that certain things shouldn't get consideration for ROY - age, background, language etc etc. Playing time isn't one of them. I think that Tavares having to generally play against better defenders than Kostitsyn *does* deserve consideration in ROY voting, but I also think that Kostitsyn getting less playing time because he happens to be on a team with other really good players also deserves to be taken into account.

I know he got less playing time just by watching both teams play. It's not something that is widely disputed so I don't see the point in bringing up whether or not I can *prove* it.

What the hell were they feeding him?

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03-31-2006, 03:26 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasincanada
If age and maturity get taken into consideration then so should the fact that Kostitsyn had to learn a language, learn a new game and eat scary, different foods. The only things that really should be taken into consideration are how what they did during the time they had on the ice. Tavares wins that - even in my somewhat biased opinion - but not by nearly as much as others here think.
Fine with me. Kostitsyn is a great talent, and I'm not meaning to say that Tavares blew him out of the water, just that it would be awfully hard to justify Tavares not winning this award.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasincanada
I just think that certain things shouldn't get consideration for ROY - age, background, language etc etc. Playing time isn't one of them. I think that Tavares having to generally play against better defenders than Kostitsyn *does* deserve consideration in ROY voting, but I also think that Kostitsyn getting less playing time because he happens to be on a team with other really good players also deserves to be taken into account.

I know he got less playing time just by watching both teams play. It's not something that is widely disputed so I don't see the point in bringing up whether or not I can *prove* it.
As I said, if Tavares was 17 and spoke a different language (putting them both on a level playing field), do you not think he'd run away with this award? If he has the same amount of skill he has now but has 2 extra years to develop his strength, maturity and skillset, is he not far and away the better player than Kostitsyn? The fact that he is already the better hockey player as an underager is remarkable enough to beat Kostitsyn.

And I just can't buy the Kostitsyn got less icetime argument. How many PPs does London average a game, 8 minimum? And how many of those did Kostitsyn, along with Schremp, Bolland and Hunter, play every second of? Kostitsyn got a ton of icetime any time I watched London play. He's on the second line is he not? Teams, at the bare minimum, share pretty much equal icetime between their top two lines. And if London were ever in a pressure situation where a goal was needed, Kostitsyn would be out there as one of the top 4 offensive talents.

I'm not disagreeing that it's close if you weigh in all the different variables, it just seems pretty simple that even if you count those things, Tavares still wins this award.

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03-31-2006, 05:34 PM
  #42
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i voted for tavares because he is 15 yrs old... im a kostitsyn fan but i dont know much about the ohl so just the fact that a 15 yr old is performing at the rate he is, is deserving of the roy.

This is really starting to sound like a crosby ovechkin debate....
X has no support
Y has so much supprt
but X is 3 yrs younger,....lol

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03-31-2006, 11:46 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Twi2teD
but X is 3 yrs younger,....lol
Which most definitely would not stand up for consideration in determining the NHL ROY, which shows that it's not that important.

That being said, I voted for Tavares. But I agree with the points that were made - both players performed very well, and could easily be selected. But I think, all things considered, Sergei would have needed to be more points up on John to win.
If playoffs counted it might be a different story... Kostitsyn was definitely one of the MVPs of the London series!

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04-10-2006, 11:53 AM
  #44
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I loved that. "scary, different foods". Let's not go nuts here.

Anyways, Tavares wins this battle quite easily. He's a heck of a talent.



I store packets of mayonaisse in my desk drawer. I'll eat one from time to time.

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04-16-2006, 09:54 AM
  #45
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Kostitsyn has 25 pts in 10 games.... thats really good. Sure Tavares is awesome but Kostitsyn certainly deserves some consideration. ITS NOT BY A LONG SHOT. Believe me language makes a difference, plus Dale Hunter hates Euro's. You guys are entitled to your opinion, but im sure Sergei will get a lot of consideration.

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04-16-2006, 10:27 AM
  #46
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Hmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_Zednik
Kostitsyn has 25 pts in 10 games.... thats really good. Sure Tavares is awesome but Kostitsyn certainly deserves some consideration. ITS NOT BY A LONG SHOT. Believe me language makes a difference, plus Dale Hunter hates Euro's. You guys are entitled to your opinion, but im sure Sergei will get a lot of consideration.
Dale played for the Nodicks, who had lots of european players

I do know that London usually gets burned in the import draft. Players do not come or do not stay, or they are just not good. Kosty has been an exception there!

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04-16-2006, 10:37 AM
  #47
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Bogus criteria

If age is used as a criteria: i.e. younger players given more consideration as if their age is a handicap, the why not use size too? Shouldn't the smaller player get it over the bigger guy? Of course not.

I know that some vote for the wrong reasons, but the criteria is simple. Who played better in his rookie year? It is a skills and results award. It should not be a handicapped event like golf. The age factor is bogus because those who factor it in are thinking more about his potential or future years than the rookie year. It is ROTY for 2006

Kosty had a big edge until Tavares started narrowing the scoring. Then I think Kosty stepped up that last stretch for London and showed his ability. I am indeed biased but I think Kosty should edge Tavares out. But the race is close if either wins.

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04-16-2006, 11:23 AM
  #48
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Tavares should win, the things he's doing as a 15 year old is incredible, I still remember being at his first OHL game which was when Oshawa were here in Kingston to play the Fronts, Tavares scored his first goal on his first shot, Kastitsyn is better then people him credit for, he's one heck of a player.

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04-22-2006, 07:36 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasincanada
One thing people should remember is age is irrelevent when voting for rookie of the year.

Tavares got less points in more games with more playing time on a crappy team with no consequences if he decided not to play defense or pass.

Kostitsyn had to learn a new language, adjust to a completely different playing style and actually *earn* his minutes on a *good* team that didn't need him and isn't grooming him to be their star for many years to come. Kostitsyn's only real advantage apart from age was being able to play on the knights PP.

Tavares deserves it but people are exaggerating just how much he deserves it because of his youth.

I agree to a degree( i havent seen much of either but tavares is 16!!!! 2 yrs at this age is huge. I wish kost would win. but tavares should. he will be a great one i'll bet

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04-22-2006, 02:29 PM
  #50
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Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl
While I do agree that in a lot of cases, age is not taken into account, I believe it should always be a factor.

Yes, Kostitsyn has faced a lot of challenges entering the league this year (and faced them very, very well), but when you look at the difference in strength between a 15 year old and an 18 or 19 year old kid, I would think the older player would be expected to show up on the scoreboard more often. Most 18/19's are better players than 16 year olds, simply due to strength and experience. The fact that a 15 year old excelled is more impressive, IMO.
So if a 5' 9" guy were to score as many as a guy Tavares size, should the ROTY go the the smaller guy? Just think how much better the smaller guy will be when he puts on some weight and muscle. It would be unfair to reward Tavares for growing earlier.

Age should have nothing to do with the choice, intentionally or subconsciously. It is not what the player will become, it is what he has done this year. It is not about handicaps or disadvantages, it is about results.


I think Tavares will win it largely because of some of those factors will not be overlooked. The votes between them should be as close as the scoring was. For some of those posting who wonder why Kosty should get votes, take a hard look at last weeks results and the CHL player of the week nod. For that matter take a look at the great defensively play Kosty made on that 2 on 1 last nite in Guelph. I do not recall Tavares contributing at that level defensively. Something Kosty is good at.

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