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Fisher Conference Final: Montreal Canadiens vs Montreal Maroons

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Old
05-19-2017, 06:04 PM
  #1
Theokritos
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Fisher Conference Final: Montreal Canadiens vs Montreal Maroons

MONTREAL CANADIENS



GM: BenchBrawl

Captain: Derian Hatcher
Assistant: Bryan Trottier
Assistant: Shea Weber
Assistant: Doug Harvey


HEAD COACH

Al Arbour

ROSTER

Patrik Elias - Bryan Trottier (A) - Bernard Geoffrion
Paul Thompson - Mike Modano - Glenn Anderson
Jamie Benn - Frank Fredrickson - Tony Amonte
Dave Andreychuk - Gregg Sheppard - Jerry Toppazzini

Doug Harvey (A) - Shea Weber (A)
Derian Hatcher (C) - Georges Boucher
Jimmy Watson - Ted Green

Frank Brimsek
Carey Price

Spares: Joe Pavelski, Marian Gaborik, Brian Campbell, Bill Thoms

PP1: Andreychuk - Trottier - Fredrickson - Harvey - Geoffrion
PP2: Thompson - Modano - Elias - Weber - Boucher

PK1: Modano - Toppazzini - Hatcher - Harvey
PK2: Trottier - Sheppard - Boucher - Weber



Forward Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Trottier 14 4 3 21
Modano 13 3 4 20
Geoffrion 14 5* 0 19
Fredrickson 13 4 0 17
Elias 14 3 0 17
Thompson 13 3 0 16
Anderson 13 0 0 13
Benn 13 0 0 13
Amonte 13 0 0 13
Toppazzini 6 0 4 10
Andreychuk 6 4 0 10
Sheppard 6 0 3 9
TOTAL 138 26* 14 178*

Defensemen Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Harvey 20 5 5 30
Weber 17 2 2 21
Boucher 17 2 2 21
Hatcher 15 0 5 20
Green 15 0 0 15
Watson 8 0 0 8
TOTAL 92 9* 14 115*

*Geoffrion plays the point on the PP

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05-19-2017, 06:05 PM
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PP1: Cyclone Taylor - Bill Gadsby - Anatoli Firsov - Russell Bowie - Jarome Iginla
PP2: Frank Patrick - Yuri Liapkin - Dit Clapper - Henri Richard - Rod Gilbert

PK1: Sylvio Mantha - Dit Clapper - Vladimir Shadrin - Floyd Curry
PK2: Kevin Lowe - Bill Gadsby - Bob Bourne - George Armstrong


Spares: Billy Burch (C/LW), Dallas Smith (D), Harry Hyland (RW)

Forward Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Anatoli Firsov 14 5 0 19
Cyclone Taylor 14 5 0 19
Jarome Iginla 14 4 0 18
Dean Prentice 13 0 1 14
Henri Richard 15 2 1 18
Rod Gilbert 13 3 0 16
Smokey Harris 12 0 0 13
Russell Bowie 11 4 0 15
George Armstrong 11 0 3 14
Bob Bourne 7 0 2 9
Vladimir Shadrin 6 0 4 10
Floyd Curry 7 0 3 10
TOTAL 138 23 14 178

Defensemen Minutes
PlayerES PP PK Total
Bill Gadsby 17 3 3 23
Dit Clapper 17 3 4 24
Frank Patrick 16 3 0 19
Sylvio Mantha 16 0 4 20
Kevin Lowe 13 0 3 16
Yuri Liapkin 13 3 0 13
TOTAL 92 12 14 115

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Old
05-19-2017, 08:18 PM
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BenchBrawl
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First of all, congratulation to ResilientBeast for winning his series.Hopefully we can have a good one.Good luck!

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05-19-2017, 10:40 PM
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Wow conference finals, I'm away for the long weekend but I'll be sure to throw some stuff out there and respond.

Good luck

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05-21-2017, 12:56 PM
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The team that beat me and maybe my favourite team in this thing in the Maroons. Good luck gentleman.

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05-24-2017, 09:22 AM
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ResilientBeast
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Let the games begin

Centers

Trottier, Modano, Frederickson

vs

Taylor, Richard, Bowie

Trottier is better than Taylor but it is far closer than my previous two series against Gretzky and Mikita.

Richard is closer to Trottier than he is Modano and this is a massive advantage for the Maroons. Richard is better in pretty much every way than Modano

Bowie and Frederickson is an awkward comparison. And I'll circle back to this one later.

Trottier > Taylor
Modano << Richard
Frederickson = Bowie

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05-24-2017, 09:30 AM
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Geoffrion, Anderson, Amonte

vs

Iginla, Gilbert, Armstrong


Geoffrion is better than Iginla fairly handily

Anderson is worse than Gilbert by a degree

Armstrong is better than Amonte IMO

Geoffrion > Iginla
Anderson < Gilbert
Amonte < Armstrong


Now for left wing

Elias, Thompson, Benn

vs

Firsov, Prentice, Harris

Firsov blows Elias out of the water here, massive advantage given that Firsov has an all round game and is an offensive catalyst that Elias has never really been.

Thompson beats out Prentice, it's really hard to get a good read on Thompson. I considered picking him but his name is so ubiquitous it's hard to dig up anything good in newspapers.

Harris and Benn is another weird comparison. Probably advantage Benn, but I don't see it as a slam dunk

Elias << Firsov
Thompson > Prentice
Benn > Harris

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05-24-2017, 09:34 AM
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Now the matchup fun, the biggest issue I see the Canadiens having in the battle of Montreal is the distribution of talents among their wingers.

Elias and Thompson will be going against my right wingers predominately Iginla and Gilbert (matchup talk pending). Leaving Firsov to be covered by Geoffrion and Anderson which is a disaster waiting to happen.

Skimming the bios are Trottier or Modano really capable of playing shut down hockey? I'd see the Habs having a hard time handling such a dynamic offensive player like Taylor if this is the case.

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05-24-2017, 09:38 AM
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Now the comparison I wanted to hold to the end...defence

Harvey vs Clapper/Gadsby (whoever is my real #1)

Is a crushing blow, marianas trench wide gulf between the two

Harvey >> Gadsby/Clapper

Weber is worse than the other of my top pairing guy but not nearly enough to close the gap

Weber < Clapper/Gadsby

Boucher > Mantha

Strictly looking at the HOH list here

Hatcher vs Patrick I have no idea trying to call this one I prefer my guy but who knows

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05-24-2017, 09:41 AM
  #10
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Goaltending is pretty much a total wash

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05-24-2017, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
Now the matchup fun, the biggest issue I see the Canadiens having in the battle of Montreal is the distribution of talents among their wingers.

Elias and Thompson will be going against my right wingers predominately Iginla and Gilbert (matchup talk pending). Leaving Firsov to be covered by Geoffrion and Anderson which is a disaster waiting to happen.

Skimming the bios are Trottier or Modano really capable of playing shut down hockey?I'd see the Habs having a hard time handling such a dynamic offensive player like Taylor if this is the case.
Yes...

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Old
05-24-2017, 03:38 PM
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I'm there and have read the arguments.Expect a response tonight or tomorrow at the latest, with some of my own arguments too.

I see TDMM already responded to the Maroons' question about the defensive abilities of my top two centers.I'm a bit puzzled that my opponent skimmed the bios and didn't find any material on defensive play, considering I just ctrl-f "defen" in both bios and found multiple quotes in each substantiating their defensive play.

Regardless, every single of one of my centers are competent two-way players (to varying degree), and this is one of the main theme of the Canadiens.

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05-24-2017, 03:45 PM
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Modano often played with Lehtinen right? That would have put him on the matchup line by default. Although as I understand it he wasn't a two-way player his whole career. He wouldn't be my first choice to use as a shut down center in any event.

I'm not sure about Trottier because he would have mostly been used in offensive situations. I think Butch Goring would have handled the heavy lifting in matchups no? Although he was only there from 80-84..

I honestly think the Canadiens' are constructed a bit awkwardly in that they have a bunch of centers who were good defensively in at least some parts of their careers, but aren't what you'd call typical matchup guys. Maybe Sheppard was? I hadn't really considered this too deeply until now to be honest.

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05-24-2017, 03:58 PM
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None of Trottier, Modano or Fredrickson will be used in a "shut-down role".The two-way responsabilities are distributed throughout the forward group.

Maybe my next posts will clarify some things.Like I said, give me until tonight or tomorrow.I will make the case for the Canadiens.

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05-24-2017, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Modano often played with Lehtinen right? That would have put him on the matchup line by default. Although as I understand it he wasn't a two-way player his whole career. He wouldn't be my first choice to use as a shut down center in any event.

I'm not sure about Trottier because he would have mostly been used in offensive situations. I think Butch Goring would have handled the heavy lifting in matchups no? Although he was only there from 80-84..

I honestly think the Canadiens' are constructed a bit awkwardly in that they have a bunch of centers who were good defensively in at least some parts of their careers, but aren't what you'd call typical matchup guys. Maybe Sheppard was? I hadn't really considered this too deeply until now to be honest.
Modano was a nonfactor defensively for the first half of his career, but became Hitchcock's top matchup center in the second half.
Edit - modano was 26 years when he first finished high in Selke voting, so I would say he was a strong defensive player for more than half his career.

Trottier was always a strong defensive player, used in a matchup role by Al Arbour even in his prime.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-24-2017 at 10:31 PM.
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05-24-2017, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Modano was a nonfactor defensively for the first half of his career, but became Hitchcock's top matchup center in the second half.
Edit - modano was 26 years when he first finished high in Selke voting, so I would say he was a strong defensive player for more than half his career.

Trottier was always a strong defensively player, used in a matchup role by Al Arbour even in his prime.
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I'd like to see something to back this up.

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05-24-2017, 11:19 PM
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ResilientBeast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I'd like to see something to back this up.
In the bios BB posted I couldn't find anything so that's why I asked

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05-25-2017, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
In the bios BB posted I couldn't find anything so that's why I asked
You'd think the fact Trottier was used as a shutdown guy would be easily findable.. considering we'd only barely been removed from Clarke. I would have thought those two would have been compared by contemporaries extensively.

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05-25-2017, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Modano often played with Lehtinen right? That would have put him on the matchup line by default. Although as I understand it he wasn't a two-way player his whole career. He wouldn't be my first choice to use as a shut down center in any event.
I find Modano to be heavily overrated defensively on the boards here .. and yes he was bad early in his career. But he became good.

So over a complete career he might be "pretty good"?

Quote:
I'm not sure about Trottier because he would have mostly been used in offensive situations. I think Butch Goring would have handled the heavy lifting in matchups no? Although he was only there from 80-84..
I can't believe people in this thread... did we collectively lose a bunch of research and memory? At his best, Trottier is in the running for best all around center ever..

He had a good part in shutting down Gretzky in 83 but to be fair that was a Bowman/Arbour gameplan against Gretzky that they all executed well.


Here is an article from 1984 about how an injured Trottier was a significant part of the Isles holding up Gretzky to win the 4th straight cup:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=eGY...PA28#v=onepage


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05-25-2017, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I find Modano to be heavily overrated defensively on the boards here .. and yes he was bad early in his career. But he became good.

So over a complete career he might be "pretty good"?



I can't believe people in this thread... did we collectively lose a bunch of research and memory? At his best, Trottier is in the running for best all around center ever..

He had a good part in shutting down Gretzky in 83 but to be fair that was a Bowman/Arbour gameplan against Gretzky that they all executed well.


Here is an article from 1984 about how an injured Trottier was a significant part of the Isles holding up Gretzky to win the 4th straight cup:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=eGY...PA28#v=onepage
These kind of things were missing from the bio, so I decided to ask about it. I didn't know the extent of Trottier's usage

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05-25-2017, 01:30 PM
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I thought Trottier's and Modano's power vs. power and defensive reputations were well known, and being asked to back up something that is well known is time-consumming, and that's time I could spend talking about something else.It would be irritating if I had Guy Lafleur and was forced to write a post backing up that he was a strong offensive player.While I'm there "forced" to defend something obvious, I'm not pounding on any of my opponent's weaknesses, and I'm not doing any team vs. team analysis.

I also never said that Trottier or Modano were freaking Guy Carbonneau defensively, so don't try to spin what I'm saying.

Anyway, BraveCanadian already provided information about Trottier, and this is a good article (I will add it to the bio later).Take note that my Trottier biography was not meant to be complete, just a quick presentation because I didn't find any strong Trottier bio.Doing bios for guys who played in the 80s is not as fun because I don't have any books.I thought his style and career were well-known and that I didn't need to make an exhaustive biography like I try to do for older players.

So about Modano, here's some quotes:

Quote:
"When Mo is at his best he does so many little things—face-offs, penalty killing, playing against other teams' top players,"says Dallas coach Dave Tippett.
Quote:
"I knew going into the game that when [the Detroit Red Wings"] Sergei Fedorov or [the St. Louis Blues'] Brett Hull or [the Vancouver Canucks'] Pavel Bure or other players like that were going out on the ice, my line was going out there too," Modano says of this season's change in responsibilities. "It was a little frightening at first because the weight of the game was on my shoulders. If we shut those guys down, we have a great opportunity to win because of our depth."
I'm not going to discuss this any further.My next posts will be on my terms.

-----

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian
I can't believe people in this thread... did we collectively lose a bunch of research and memory?
It appears so.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 05-25-2017 at 02:33 PM.
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05-25-2017, 02:01 PM
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Coaching

One of the biggest advantage any team has in this series, which was quietly brushed under the rug by the Maroons, is coaching.

Even though Laviolette's stock is rising in light of Nashville reaching the SC Finals, he still doesn't compare to Arbour who coached a dynasty.Worst, the Canadiens have a team constructed in the same style as the NYIs.

Re-posting from the MTL vs Regina series:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl
As for team fits, there are some similarities between the Montreal Canadiens and the NYI dynasty, which should produce a nice synergy between Arbour and his players.

-The first obvious similarity is the Arbour-Trottier reunion.
-The best winger on the team is a goalscoring RWer and he plays with Trottier, just as it was with Bossy (even if I understand Geoffrion is not exactly like Bossy).
-Just like the NYI dynasty, Montreal's wingers (Elias, Thompson, Benn, Anderson, Amonte), with the exception of Geoffrion and ignoring side, are pretty much all interchangeable in value.I understand this is not really the case, and that there's still a hierarchy between them (e.g. Thompson > Anderson), but their value is not that far from each other.
-The team's best player is a superstar #1 defenseman who can do it all.
-The top 3 lines (more specifically the center line) are two-way (you criticized my third line for its lack of defense, which I will try to address in my forward post later).
We can expect The Canadiens to consistently outcoach the Maroons.

Defense

The Maroons have no #1 defenseman.

Just like against Regina, the Canadiens have the best defenseman on the first two pairings, and they are the one that will control the flow of the game.Added to the coaching advantage, it's likely that Montreal will impose their style on the Maroons and control the tempo.The transition belongs to the Canadiens, and this will boost the efficiency of their forward group.

The Maroons' second pairing is not that good, and the first and third pairings are not strong enough to compensate.Considering The Canadiens' team structure of rolling three strong two-way lines, the Maroons' 2nd and 3rd pairings might get exposed.This is not the case for the Canadiens who can handle the Maroons' forwards, both defensively and physically.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 05-25-2017 at 02:48 PM.
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05-25-2017, 02:06 PM
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The Maroons have tough wingers, but they can be handled by Montreal's defensemen.

Re-posting from the Regina Series:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl
The physicality and intimidating presence of Weber, Hatcher and Green are well-substantiated.I don't think I need to throw quotes for Weber and Hatcher, every GMs witnessed their career.They were among the tallest, strongest and most physical defensemen in the league in their prime.As for Ted Green, here's some quick quotes to paint a picture:

Quote:
Green, a 190-pounder with dimensions of a fullback

[...]

Green is an aggressive, often truculent, player. He has the physical attributes to play it that way. In pugilistic parlance, he has the fastest pair of fists in the NHL. He rarely dodges an opportunity to use them.
Quote:
Pound for pound, Ted Green was the toughest of the Post-World War II Bruins and – with the exception of Eddie Shore – the meanest player to ever don the black, gold, and white.
Quote:
Terrible Teddy Green they used to call him. Played defence for the Bruins a few seasons back. Big, slab-cheeked guy with burning embers for eyes. Meanest, rottenest player in hockey. Wielded his stick like a machete. Stalked heads instead of pucks. Whose code of survival was a fist for a frown, a slash for a sneer and may the Lord have mercy on the meek and mild. So vicious he once had a price put on his head by the president of the New York Rangers. Never collected. So hated he once had boots and bottles thrown at his head by irate fans around the league. Never connected. Terrible Teddy Green lived by the sword for eight violent seasons in the NHL until he was felled one fall night in 1969.
Quote:
Ted Green was still regarded as the baddest of the bad..
Quote:
In Green, the Bruins got a solid enforcer who provided the club with crease-clearing spine and leadership
Quote:
Though he was brought in initially for his physicality and intimidation, Green developed into a good NHLer through sheer determination. A monster in his own zone, Green kept the other team honest. A hard hitting and willing fighter
Quote:
“Ted” Green epitomized the style of the Boston Bruins, bruising, roughhousing, and intimidating members of the opposing team every time he stepped out for a shift.
Shea Weber is 6' 4'' and 232 lbs, and according to many he's even stronger than average for his size.Derian Hatcher was vicious and stood 6' 5'' tall, weighting 235 lbs.He was great in front of the net and could drop the gloves (as seen in an earlier post).Ted Green has an adjusted size of 6' 0'' and 220 lbs, but apparently the type of built of an NFL fullback (we all know the type, not that tall but extremely "square and strong").Basically, in their time, those three were in the conversation for most all-around toughest and intimidating defenseman in the NHL.

They all play on an different pairing, so one of them is always on the ice except on the first PP wave, which is irrelevent to Regina's strategy.

But what about their partners? Can they be easily intimidated? Unfortunately for Regina, even the "softer" defensemen on Montreal are tough enough.

I don't think I need to waste time on convincing anyone that Doug Harvey was a tough player whose physical play was respected.

Georges Boucher wasn't an intimidating force, but he was tough enough:

Quote:
He played the game hard and cleanly, for although he could hand out as hard a check as any defenceman in hockey, Buck never resorted to foul tactics
Quote:
He could hand it out, and take it as well, and he was a two-way player who could either set up goals or score them himself
Quote:
He absorbed plenty of punishment in Canadiens goalwards thrusts but he took it all with a grin- at the same time evening up for any sly cracks that came his way
Quote:
Boucher whizzed Gardiner's cap off with a hard body check.

Leduc came barging through and Boucher flattened him.
Jimmy Watson is the only defenseman on Montreal that doesn't have substantiated physical play, but he was bigger than average in his era, was a smart player who won't commit many mistake, good at playing through injuries, and thanks to Harvey's presence will see limited icetime, which makes it unlikely he's going to be "weared out".

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05-25-2017, 02:14 PM
  #24
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nvm this post, I mixed a player with another *facepalm*


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 05-25-2017 at 02:33 PM.
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05-25-2017, 02:21 PM
  #25
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Top-Down Team Structure Analysis - or Analogy with Body Types

The Maroons have a strong forward group, but their defense and coaching leaves a lot to be desired.

When you look at their lineup as a whole, it looks like a guy with big muscles in the upper body (forwards), but who has chicken legs (defense) and is not very intelligent (coaching).

The Maroons:


The Canadiens OTOH are strong throughout, with strong legs and upper body, plus the intelligence to go with it.

Both teams have strong and mobile feet (goalie).


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