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Old
05-24-2017, 07:15 PM
  #51
Peggy
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
We're not going to agree, and you have some ... curious thoughts regarding how contracts in the NHL work, so let's just agree to disagree.
I just don't agree with the status quo

I don't agree that if scheifele is being paid 6 that Trouba deserves 8 because that's what the market is giving out

I'll leave it at that

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05-24-2017, 08:42 PM
  #52
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Trouba is not getting a long term deal here. Unless we trade Ehlers and or Laine, the long term projection is that we have Trouba for 3 more years.

The Jets tried hard to put Myers ahead of Trouba. Why? To try to diminish his value of course. That didn't work well, did it?

So here we are. A pissed off Trouba who is handcuffed to another 3 years. Blame that one on the CBA. Jets are laughing all the way to the bank paying him only 3 mil a year. 2020 as stated before is when Trouba get's traded for a 1st and a 4th.

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05-24-2017, 08:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Eyeseeing View Post
Young Jacob may get exactly what he wants and yet still be unhappy after the second year of a long contract then what ?
I really hope this organization does its homework on Jacob's desire to be in Winnipeg long term.
THAT trumps everything else,
An unhappy player with a longer contract can be devastating to morale.
Honestly that is not a fear of mine and we can cross that bridge when and IF we come to it. Jacob doesn't seem like the type of guy to quit on Scheifele, Morrissey, Wheeler, Ehlers, Buff, little etc. His dad may be pissed but he isn't lacing up.

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05-24-2017, 08:55 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
I just don't agree with the status quo

I don't agree that if scheifele is being paid 6 that Trouba deserves 8 because that's what the market is giving out

I'll leave it at that
If Scheifele signed a two year bridge last season what would we be looking at this off season to ink him to an 8 year extension. Back then he looked great but it wasn't a large sample size. This year he has proven he is a #1 centre and top 10 scorer in the NHL........similarly Jacob kicked the door down this season on his bridge and proved he is high end young #1 D man in the league.

Would Scheifele get paid $8 x 8 now after his past season? Trouba may be less popular around here but he is every bit as essential to our teams success in the future as Scheifele is.


Last edited by ps241: 05-24-2017 at 09:07 PM.
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05-24-2017, 09:06 PM
  #55
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My bold prediction #1: He doesn't sign an extension this summer, and goes to arbitration next summer, requesting a 2-year deal to get to UFA status in the summer of 2020.

My bold prediction #2: A GM not named "Kevin Cheveldayoff" will trade him at the 2020 trade deadline.


On #1, there is no motivation for him to sign an extension this summer. He already bet on himself once by holding out and then delivering a terrific season: his value only goes up if he can repeat that feat.

On #2, I've felt for a while that he is trying to engineer his way out of Winnipeg: unless he can get a deal that he feels will compensate him for staying (i.e. overpayment). I think it will get to a point where his trade value exceeds what the organization is willing to pay.
The Jets should be prepared to shell out $8.0 million/season for Trouba. Anything north of that, we should trade him. My gut feeling, sadly, is that you are correct. Trouba wants out of Winnipeg.

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05-24-2017, 09:11 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
I give him no more than 7.5
I'd aim for 7 or 6.5
Scheifele is making 6

8 million is crazy talk
Just like signing buff for 7.6 wasn't a good contract and he was putting up better numbers
Then Trouba is gone.

I don't think you understand the reality of the situation. The low Canadian dollar. Winnipeg being the least desirable place in the NHL for free agents. The Jets missing the playoffs for five of their first six years. We have no choice but to overcompensate Trouba. There is not much chance of getting a return that is on par with Trouba.

$8,000,000/year is crazy talk only to you. $6.5 million is crazy talk when considering signing Trouba in a less-than-appealing NHL market. Additionally, if Trouba signs, he will be looking to recuperate money lost from the signing of the bridge contract.

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05-24-2017, 09:17 PM
  #57
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Then Trouba is gone.

I don't think you understand the reality of the situation. The low Canadian dollar. Winnipeg being the least desirable place in the NHL for free agents. The Jets missing the playoffs for five of their first six years. We have no choice but to overcompensate Trouba. There is not much chance of getting a return that is on par with Trouba.

$8,000,000/year is crazy talk only to you. $6.5 million is crazy talk when considering signing Trouba in a less-than-appealing NHL market. Additionally, if Trouba signs, he will be looking to recuperate money lost from the signing of the bridge contract.
The low Canadian dollar is pretty much meaningless since all players get paid in USD. Actually a low CAD would give him more buying power living in Canada.

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05-24-2017, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by potroaster View Post
Trouba is not getting a long term deal here. Unless we trade Ehlers and or Laine, the long term projection is that we have Trouba for 3 more years.

The Jets tried hard to put Myers ahead of Trouba. Why? To try to diminish his value of course. That didn't work well, did it?

So here we are. A pissed off Trouba who is handcuffed to another 3 years. Blame that one on the CBA. Jets are laughing all the way to the bank paying him only 3 mil a year. 2020 as stated before is when Trouba get's traded for a 1st and a 4th.
I sure hope that was not the reason for putting Myers ahead of Trouba. It's not conductive to a winning culture, and makes TNSE seem frugal.

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05-24-2017, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Actually a low CAD would give him more buying power living in Canada.
Not true with NHL players. For the average Canadian? yes. For the richest 2% of the population, the taxes are far higher and more significant in Canada. It's definitely a factor in deciding to play in Canada.


Last edited by Jets4Life: 05-24-2017 at 09:56 PM. Reason: sentence error
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05-24-2017, 09:32 PM
  #60
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5.5x4 or 6x5 offer this on july 1st. If he turns it down or wants to wait till following year then trading him has to happen. My hope is they talk before july 1st and chevy knows which way trouba is leaning and if that's not to sign then trade him at draft if that would be easier. You break the bank for laine not trouba.

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05-24-2017, 09:32 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
Not true with NHL players. For the average Canadian? yes. For the richest 2% of the population, the taxes are far higher and more significant than in Canada. It's definitely a factor in deciding to play in Canada.
Not sure what you are saying? NHL players do get paid in USD even playing in Canada. Not willing to spend the time looking but there are parts of the USA that also pay significant taxes. California for sure. Winnipeg was somewhere in the middle of all NHL cities.

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05-24-2017, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Not willing to spend the time looking but there are parts of the USA that also pay significant taxes. California for sure. Winnipeg was somewhere in the middle of all NHL cities.
Have you or someone you know ever lived in the US? The richest Americans get tax breaks, and pay far less than their Canadian counterparts. It's always been an obstacle for Canadian teams when wanting to sign free agents. Maybe not the main obstacle, but a contributing factor.

"Winnipeg is somewhere in the middle of all NHL cities." Thanks for the laugh...

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05-24-2017, 10:04 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Jets4Life View Post
Have you or someone you know ever lived in the US? The richest Americans get tax breaks, and pay far less than their Canadian counterparts. It's always been an obstacle for Canadian teams when wanting to sign free agents. Maybe not the main obstacle, but a contributing factor.

"Winnipeg is somewhere in the middle of all NHL cities." Thanks for the laugh...
You can check it out for yourself but the differences in income taxes is more than set off by the difference in the dollar. As of today $8 M USD is = to $10.72 M CAD. Even the lowest taxed states have less of a difference between tax rates than the difference between the USD and the CAD. And yes there are many tax shelters available to wealthy tax payers in Canada. You add in the fact the low cost of living in Winnipeg we are not the death kneel financially for players.

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05-24-2017, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
It is not. Go check on the cost of 23yo #1D's. You can throw these disparaging remarks around all you want, but it's simply an incorrect statement.
Hamphus Lindholm is my poster boy for 23 yo #1Ds. If you read this article, it illustrates that prudent management of young stars' AAVs is essential to building winning teams.

https://www.nhl.com/news/hampus-lind...im/c-283141064

I don't believe for a second that the Jets will give Trouba an 8M AAV.
Scheifele set the bar at 6.1M and others will be asked to follow. Little, Ehlers, Wheeler and Laine will all be paid relative to this benchmark and Trouba will not be allowed to distort it.
If Lindholm can accept 5.25 AAV X 6, then Trouba will have to accept something closer to Scheifele's AAV, or be traded.
I think Trouba is a great young D and defended him (as a victim of bad advice) during his ill-advised holdout, but he is not above the team.

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05-24-2017, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
You can check it out for yourself but the differences in income taxes is more than set off by the difference in the dollar. As of today $8 M USD is = to $10.72 M CAD. Even the lowest taxed states have less of a difference between tax rates than the difference between the USD and the CAD. And yes there are many tax shelters available to wealthy tax payers in Canada. You add in the fact the low cost of living in Winnipeg we are not the death kneel financially for players.
Aside from housing, it's cheaper to live in Alberta. Taxes deducted off your net pay are much less here. I remember being pleasantly surprised about the difference. Alberta is the only province that can come close to the US, and the tax breaks that the richest 2% of Americans get.

Getting back on topic, I would keep Trouba as long as possible. He is likely going to arbitration in 2018, but the Jets should try and make him the highest paid player on the team if he decides to sign to a long term contract.

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05-24-2017, 11:25 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
I just don't agree with the status quo

I don't agree that if scheifele is being paid 6 that Trouba deserves 8 because that's what the market is giving out

I'll leave it at that
If Trouba had signed an 8 year deal last season it would been comparable to Scheifele. 4 RFA years and 4 UFA years.

If Trouba signs an 8 year deal now it's 2 RFA years and 6 UFA years.

They are two completely different scenarios. Can't you see how that changes the contract dynamics?

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05-24-2017, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
If Trouba had signed an 8 year deal last season it would been comparable to Scheifele. 4 RFA years and 4 UFA years.

If Trouba signs an 8 year deal now it's 2 RFA years and 6 UFA years.

They are two completely different scenarios. Can't you see how that changes the contract dynamics?
Yup Troubas next deal will follow more closely the O'rielly, Subban and Weber long term deals. It won't resemble the deals signed by Lidholm, Jones, Rielly etc because of leverage as well as giving up more FA years. Also your kidding yourself if the team thinks Scheifele is their CAP with regards to young player salaries. Laine will likely exceed it and possibly Ehlers.

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05-25-2017, 07:52 AM
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Yup Troubas next deal will follow more closely the O'rielly, Subban and Weber long term deals. It won't resemble the deals signed by Lidholm, Jones, Rielly etc because of leverage as well as giving up more FA years. Also your kidding yourself if the team thinks Scheifele is their CAP with regards to young player salaries. Laine will likely exceed it and possibly Ehlers.
I just don't see the Jets using Weber or Subban as comparables. Weber's $110M contract is from a bygone era and Subban was a Norris trophy winner. Trouba is much more in the in the Lindholm/Ristolainen category. And Trouba has little to no leverage, unless the Jets choose to accede to his demands, a lesson he learned less than a year ago.
Scheifele's contract is not a CAP, but a benchmark. If an 80 point #1 centre, future captain, marquee player and role model can accept a 6.1M AAV, including 4 years of UFA, then others need to consider accepting a team friendly contract in order to keep the star-studded roster intact. Bryan Little gets it and I have a feeling Ehlers will, as well. That, in turn, may influence Laine to take ~$9M X 8 (if he continues to progress) instead of 10. It's all inter-connected, but Scheifele is the benchmark. I'm just not sure whether Trouba's advisors will buy into that, as they have no apparent allegiance to Wpg or the Jets.

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05-25-2017, 08:25 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
If Trouba had signed an 8 year deal last season it would been comparable to Scheifele. 4 RFA years and 4 UFA years.

If Trouba signs an 8 year deal now it's 2 RFA years and 6 UFA years.

They are two completely different scenarios. Can't you see how that changes the contract dynamics?
One of the problems with this is were all assuming he signs for 8 years
And I'm thinking 6 years

You're not getting Trouba to sign for 8 years unless you over pay him
8 million might do it, but is those extra 2 years really the difference maker? I'd rather just make a similar deal with Trouba
6.5 for 6
8 years is a long time and there's no need to eat up 8 mil of salary cap for 6 of those years to get a "bargain" for 2 extra years

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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
Hamphus Lindholm is my poster boy for 23 yo #1Ds. If you read this article, it illustrates that prudent management of young stars' AAVs is essential to building winning teams.

https://www.nhl.com/news/hampus-lind...im/c-283141064

I don't believe for a second that the Jets will give Trouba an 8M AAV.
Scheifele set the bar at 6.1M and others will be asked to follow. Little, Ehlers, Wheeler and Laine will all be paid relative to this benchmark and Trouba will not be allowed to distort it.
If Lindholm can accept 5.25 AAV X 6, then Trouba will have to accept something closer to Scheifele's AAV, or be traded.
I think Trouba is a great young D and defended him (as a victim of bad advice) during his ill-advised holdout, but he is not above the team.
That's how I see it too
Your best player signed a 6 for 8 setting an example for signings

Trouba, ehlers and Laine will still get more, but we're not Chicago where were signing 3 players for 8 million

And they also all don't have to be 8 year terms

Ehlers can get 6 or 7
Trouba gets 6
And Laine gets 8 year term

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05-25-2017, 08:27 AM
  #70
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I just don't see the Jets using Weber or Subban as comparables. Weber's $110M contract is from a bygone era and Subban was a Norris trophy winner. Trouba is much more in the in the Lindholm/Ristolainen category. And Trouba has little to no leverage, unless the Jets choose to accede to his demands, a lesson he learned less than a year ago.
Scheifele's contract is not a CAP, but a benchmark. If an 80 point #1 centre, future captain, marquee player and role model can accept a 6.1M AAV, including 4 years of UFA, then others need to consider accepting a team friendly contract in order to keep the star-studded roster intact. Bryan Little gets it and I have a feeling Ehlers will, as well. That, in turn, may influence Laine to take ~$9M X 8 (if he continues to progress) instead of 10. It's all inter-connected, but Scheifele is the benchmark. I'm just not sure whether Trouba's advisors will buy into that, as they have no apparent allegiance to Wpg or the Jets.
I mostly agree with you but a couple of nits to pick at:

One, Scheifele wasn't an 80 point #1 centre when he signed his deal. He was a young #2 centre showing lots of potential and a strong work ethic coming off a 61 point season. Had Scheifele been bridged his subsequent eight year deal would have been considerably higher I suspect. The Jets did extremely well in getting that deal signed when they did. Frankly the Jets got a steal of a deal and will be laughing until that deal is done should Scheifele continue to produce like that, he'll arguably be the most underpaid top centre in the league.

As a result I'm uncertain that will be the benchmark. Buff's salary alone argues against it being the benchmark for the team (though I understand a debate could be made on AAV versus term in Buff's case). I think the true benchmark will be set by Laine but we'll need to sign Ehlers and extend Trouba, if we are able, prior to that happening. I do agree that Ehlers is likely to be in the same mold as Scheifele and will sign a team friendly deal.

I completely agree with you that I don't think team (in the sense of team = Winnipeg Jets) meshes well with Trouba's priorities or wants. I'm certain he's an excellent team player and will put the team he plays for as a priority, I'm just not convinced that the Jets are the team he wants to be that player for.

I also agree that Weber and Subban in many respects aren't good comparables. Lindholm may be a comparable, if Trouba signs a contract that covers the same relative amount of RFA/UFA years as Lindholm's deal does. Same would go for Ristolainen or any of the other cohort drafted at roughly the same time as Trouba. The catch being that we're either trying to buy up more UFA years and that Trouba has been bridged. Lindholm signed for six years and IIRC that's 3 RFA years and 3 UFA years. Most of the discussion surrounding Trouba in this thread is signing him for eight years, only two of which are RFA years. So the contract will be inherently more expensive than Lindholm's because you're buying up UFA years.

FWIW I consider all of these numbers to be absurd, whether they are low ball or high end numbers any six to eight year deal will leave a fiscally responsible individual capable of living the rest of their life out in comfort, regardless of whether they live in Florida or Winnipeg.

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05-25-2017, 08:35 AM
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Aside from housing, it's cheaper to live in Alberta. Taxes deducted off your net pay are much less here. I remember being pleasantly surprised about the difference. Alberta is the only province that can come close to the US, and the tax breaks that the richest 2% of Americans get.

Getting back on topic, I would keep Trouba as long as possible. He is likely going to arbitration in 2018, but the Jets should try and make him the highest paid player on the team if he decides to sign to a long term contract.

I don't agree that we should make sure that a diva should be given exactly what asked
Sets a bad example and holding off on signing Trouba last year was for nothing then

Laine will be the highest paid player on the team

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05-25-2017, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
I just don't see the Jets using Weber or Subban as comparables. Weber's $110M contract is from a bygone era and Subban was a Norris trophy winner. Trouba is much more in the in the Lindholm/Ristolainen category. And Trouba has little to no leverage, unless the Jets choose to accede to his demands, a lesson he learned less than a year ago.
Scheifele's contract is not a CAP, but a benchmark. If an 80 point #1 centre, future captain, marquee player and role model can accept a 6.1M AAV, including 4 years of UFA, then others need to consider accepting a team friendly contract in order to keep the star-studded roster intact. Bryan Little gets it and I have a feeling Ehlers will, as well. That, in turn, may influence Laine to take ~$9M X 8 (if he continues to progress) instead of 10. It's all inter-connected, but Scheifele is the benchmark. I'm just not sure whether Trouba's advisors will buy into that, as they have no apparent allegiance to Wpg or the Jets.
I see what you're saying, but this is an Apples and Oranges situation due to the number of UFA years that the contract would cover. If you take Lindholms 6 year $31.5 million dollar contract as the comparator. For Trouba to earn the same $31.5 million over the same 6 year window he's looking at a 4 year extension with an AAV of $6,375,000. Scheifs AAV is only $6,125,000. UFA years cost way more than RFA years, so if you're signing a long term deal eating up more UFA years that needs to be accounted for.

I do feel that 8 by $7.6 (Same hit as Buff) would be ideal, but really if it took the extra 400K to get the max term commitment I would do that just to have such an important piece in place to plan around.

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05-25-2017, 08:54 AM
  #73
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Trouba isn't a UFA. Buff is and he's making 7.6
Trouba hasn't put numbers up like buff has yet
Where did I say Trouba is a UFA? It's about how many UFA years are going to be bought though.

Plus, there are a lot more "numbers" than just points that agents use to drive up value. Points are big for sure, but that's not the only metric.

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05-25-2017, 09:01 AM
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Where did I say Trouba is a UFA? It's about how many UFA years are going to be bought though.

Plus, there are a lot more "numbers" than just points that agents use to drive up value. Points are big for sure, but that's not the only metric.
You brought up ufa players
And I know, but byfuglien's points and play were all star calibre before he signed that 7.6 for ufa

Trouba isn't there yet. He's getting there, but he isn't just yet
And he is still an rfa for 3 more years

I get where the misunderstanding was coming from now
The 8 mil is adjusted for 2 extra years of ufa
I still don't agree with 8 million
Maybe yeah, but don't think Trouba signs 8 years anyways
I'd feel okay with 6 years, it would be equivalent to scheifele's contract of we were to extend him now
Trouba would get a little more tho

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05-25-2017, 09:07 AM
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You brought up ufa players
And I know, but byfuglien's points and play were all star calibre before he signed that 7.6 for ufa

Trouba isn't there yet. He's getting there, but he isn't just yet
And he is still an rfa for 3 more years

I get where the misunderstanding was coming from now
The 8 mil is adjusted for 2 extra years of ufa
I still don't agree with 8 million
Maybe yeah, but don't think Trouba signs 8 years anyways
I'd feel okay with 6 years, it would be equivalent to scheifele's contract of we were to extend him now
Trouba would get a little more tho
No I didn't. I said "how many UFA years are bought". Re-read what I wrote.

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