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05-25-2017, 10:43 AM
  #101
Aavco Cup
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Ovechkins contract was 16.8% of the cap when signed. A similar deal today would be a 12.25M cap hit.

Crosby took a discount. He easily could have demanded a $13M cap hit and got it. He realizes that the extra cap room for the Penguins makes it more likely he can win more cups. He is also a very unusual player since he makes more from endorsements in one season than Trouba could ever hope to make in his entire career.

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05-25-2017, 10:45 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
Ovechkins contract was 16.8% of the cap when signed. A similar deal today would be a 12.25M cap hit.

Crosby took a discount. He easily could have demanded a $13M cap hit and got it. He realizes that the extra cap room for the Penguins makes it more likely he can win more cups. He is also a very unusual player since he makes more from endorsements in one season than Trouba could ever hope to make in his entire career.
He's also unusual because he's infatuated with 87,8.7

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05-25-2017, 10:46 AM
  #103
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Yeah we got Subbanned by Trouba's camp and we will have to pay the piper. Not sure what his desired deal is but it's clear it'll have to be close in AAV to top 10 D in the league.

And that's before he gets to play another season as a number one...

All we can do is hope he plays very well and worry about it next summer.

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05-25-2017, 10:54 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
Give me 8 for 8 or I leave is diva like
And I'm only calling him that based off how the hf boards are interpreting it
It's like it's Trouba way or the highway and I don't agree with that mentality
I agree with coming to a middle ground and 8 for 8 isn't that
Or maybe it is, but I don't think so
Especially if he's peaked
You are choosing to look at it as though Trouba is being, in some way more demanding than all the other players. We don't know what words were used or what tone was used. We don't know what he has asked for. All players 'demand' to be paid as much as they can get based on comparing themselves to other players. There is a negotiating process and in the end the 2 parties sign a compromise contract. It is always a compromise.

I am talking about including all the factors in comparing. You don't just compare players on some absolute scale. Player A is better than player B this year so he gets paid more this year. They get paid less for their ELC years. They get paid less for their RFA years. They get paid less for short term deals. The poorer players don't get offered long term deals. They negotiate multiple contracts of 1, 2, or 3 year terms.

In the end it always comes down to the strength of the relative bargaining positions.

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05-25-2017, 10:59 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
I'll make it short

I'm not comparing apples to oranges

Ovechkin has a 10 mil contract
Crosby is what 7 or 8?
Apple's to oranges?
One was willing to take less for the better of the team and the other wanted the superstardom and the money that goes with it
Crosby is just a strange guy that loves the number 87. His AAV is $8,700,000 because that's all he wanted to be paid. Worked out for the benefit of the team, but he didn't do it to be a team player. The Penguins told him flat out when he only wanted $8.7 that they'd have to pay Malkin more than that ($9.5) to make sure Sid would be okay with it. He was.

So Ovi at $10. Pens would have paid Crosby more than Malkin if he wanted it but the reason he didn't wasn't to be a team player. I was a superstition thing.

Hahaha. Maybe Trouba wants 8 x 8 because he wears number 8 and is superstitious too. Makes you wish he chose #6 instead

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05-25-2017, 11:01 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by DRW204 View Post
I am fully anticipating Trouba wanting to leave, and probably going to leave. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. The guy’s reason for holding out was BS, and his exit interview did not instill any confidence in him wanting to be here. It was rumored he turned down 7 million prior to him cementing himself as a #1 Dman, which it is plausible since he could have been betting on himself to improve his play and make more than 7 mill per year, however, I think this with the mix of his previous actions are giving indications that he doesn’t want to be here. Trouba is paramount to the success of this defense. Although the pieces look good, it is such a volatile group. Buff’s play was up and down this year and some of the downs were extremely concerning. Then you have Tyler Myers who I think you have to protect to insure yourself against a Trouba departure. But 3 major lower body surgeries (knee, hip, groin?) within 13-14 month time frame and the fact he hasn’t played a full season since his first is really concerning as well. Then, JoMo is the only LD that you have 0 question marks about, and he is just coming off his 1st year.

Trouba/his camp don’t care what Scheifle got. If #55’s agent couldn’t negotiate a more lucrative deal for his player that is not KO’s problem/concern. These guys will not bend over and take a friendly deal in the spirit of cooperativeness. Every time you hear about this guy he seems like a stubborn player at the negotiation table. There is no way they accept a deal in-line with #55’s IMO. Then you also add in the fact that there are more UFA years at stake as well, took a bridge deal for a bigger payday later on..…it will get expensive.
Re: the bolded, is that reported anywhere?

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05-25-2017, 11:04 AM
  #107
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Re: the bolded, is that reported anywhere?
It was reported by Lawless that the Jets were never allowed to present a long term deal to the Trouba camp. He had nothing to turn down.

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05-25-2017, 11:05 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by DRW204 View Post
Crosby had a 5 year 43 million dollar contract prior. That + his 12 year 104 million trump ovies 13 year 124 million (in TCV, not AAV)
Salary cap is still the issue tho

Not total money

Even if Crosby ended up making more he still has a lower salary cap which is the important part

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05-25-2017, 11:05 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jimmyjets View Post
Crosby is just a strange guy that loves the number 87. His AAV is $8,700,000 because that's all he wanted to be paid. Worked out for the benefit of the team, but he didn't do it to be a team player. The Penguins told him flat out when he only wanted $8.7 that they'd have to pay Malkin more than that ($9.5) to make sure Sid would be okay with it. He was.

So Ovi at $10. Pens would have paid Crosby more than Malkin if he wanted it but the reason he didn't wasn't to be a team player. I was a superstition thing.

Hahaha. Maybe Trouba wants 8 x 8 because he wears number 8 and is superstitious too. Makes you wish he chose #6 instead
Maybe Sid realizes that 8.7 or 10 mil AAV, he's gonna be rich as **** anyways. Those are big numbers, but you'd think after a certain point it really doesn't matter.

Too bad most rich people in this world just want more and more. Even Messi commited tax fraud. Pretty sad.

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05-25-2017, 11:09 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
Salary cap is still the issue tho

Not total money

Even if Crosby ended up making more he still has a lower salary cap which is the important part
Those back diving contracts are no longer allowed so those "fake" discounts can't be used any more.

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05-25-2017, 11:09 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Rambokala View Post
Maybe Sid realizes that 8.7 or 10 mil AAV, he's gonna be rich as **** anyways. Those are big numbers, but you'd think after a certain point it really doesn't matter.

Too bad most rich people in this world just want more and more. Even Messi commited tax fraud. Pretty sad.
Crosby signed a 12yx 8.7M=104.4M contract in 2012.

I wouldn't look at Crosbys contract at all.

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05-25-2017, 11:10 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
You are choosing to look at it as though Trouba is being, in some way more demanding than all the other players. We don't know what words were used or what tone was used. We don't know what he has asked for. All players 'demand' to be paid as much as they can get based on comparing themselves to other players. There is a negotiating process and in the end the 2 parties sign a compromise contract. It is always a compromise.

I am talking about including all the factors in comparing. You don't just compare players on some absolute scale. Player A is better than player B this year so he gets paid more this year. They get paid less for their ELC years. They get paid less for their RFA years. They get paid less for short term deals. The poorer players don't get offered long term deals. They negotiate multiple contracts of 1, 2, or 3 year terms.

In the end it always comes down to the strength of the relative bargaining positions.
That's the impression being left with when someone says 7.5 for 8 and another jumps at 8 for 8 saying that's the only way we'll get him to sign long term

Is that the general consensus? Trouba is now a top 10 d man in the league?

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05-25-2017, 11:11 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
I'll make it short

I'm not comparing apples to oranges

Ovechkin has a 10 mil contract
Crosby is what 7 or 8?
Apple's to oranges?
One was willing to take less for the better of the team and the other wanted the superstardom and the money that goes with it
Players may have different ways of looking at what is best for them. It is possible that some player decides that it is in his best interest to take a little less so that the team around him can be better. That gives him a better chance at winning. I don't know for a fact that it ever has happened that way but it might have. We don't know exactly what was in anyone's mind.

I think I am pretty safe in assuming that they never take less in order to put more money in the owner's pocket though.

You are talking about 12 & 13 year term contracts signed 5 & 9 years ago. They are complicated contracts signed under complicated circumstances. Neither is even permitted now. I don't want to get into trying to analyze them in detail to compare to what Trouba might or might not sign for now under very different circumstances. I certainly don't want to start trying to get inside the players heads to understand why Crosby settled for only 104.4 million.

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05-25-2017, 11:13 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
It was reported by Lawless that the Jets were never allowed to present a long term deal to the Trouba camp. He had nothing to turn down.
I remember that as well.

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05-25-2017, 11:15 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Maukkis View Post
Some of these arguments are mindblowing. First off, signing Trouba after his bridge deals is not comparable to Jones, Lindholm, Risto or Rielly doing so after their ELCs. The best comparable of his would be Subban: a defenseman who took a bridge deal and, should we say, won that gamble. Trouba is doing just that, but on a much smaller scale. Seven per year is not outlandish in the slightest. That being said, that's about as far as I would go.
Still depends for how long. That is too much if it is for 4 years, too little for 8. I think it is about right for 6.

The exact numbers each of us use are our opinions. It is not an opinion that term affects AAV.

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05-25-2017, 11:15 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Aavco Cup View Post
Those back diving contracts are no longer allowed so those "fake" discounts can't be used any more.
Back diving contracts?

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05-25-2017, 11:15 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
That's the impression being left with when someone says 7.5 for 8 and another jumps at 8 for 8 saying that's the only way we'll get him to sign long term

Is that the general consensus? Trouba is now a top 10 d man in the league?
It may be the only way to get his signiture on an extension before the start of next season. But It is not how I expect things to play out. I think it gets signed next summer.

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05-25-2017, 11:17 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
Re: the bolded, is that reported anywhere?

It was a rumor reported late 2015/early 2016. If you search articles on Andrew Ladd, Jacob Trouba and Dustin Byfuglien contracts around that timeframe you will get it I am sure. don't know if it was ever anything more than a rumor though

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05-25-2017, 11:17 AM
  #119
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Is there a thread that talking about signings and fitting salary cap?
I'd like to see the math and hypotheticals

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05-25-2017, 11:21 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
Back diving contracts?

Basically creating artificial term length in order to lessen the cap hit.

Ie:
Ben Bishop’s agent might have went to the Stars and said “We want 30 Million.”

Stars could have went to a max of 7 years with a cap hit of 4.2 Mill AAV. They agreed on 6 year 4.9 mil AAV. 4 years cap hit of 7.35, 5 year 5.88 AAV etc

Edit - Bishop is REAL term length, but the max ufa years is now 7, back then players could be signed for 7+ thus lessening the cap hit further


Last edited by DRW204: 05-25-2017 at 11:28 AM.
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05-25-2017, 11:22 AM
  #121
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Back diving contracts?
Kovulchuk, Hossa, Keith, Weber, Crosby all have (had) back diving contracts. Years of very low salary tacked on the end whose only purpose was to lower the AAV. It was expected the players would retire and not play when their salaries approach league minimum. It was cap circumvention.

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05-25-2017, 11:28 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by DRW204 View Post
It was a rumor reported late 2015/early 2016. If you search articles on Andrew Ladd, Jacob Trouba and Dustin Byfuglien contracts around that timeframe you will get it I am sure. don't know if it was ever anything more than a rumor though
That was in the WFP and it was just pure speculation IIRC. It was never reported Trouba turned anything down or was offered any sort of contract.

New info came to light during Trouba's holdout.

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05-25-2017, 11:29 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Maukkis View Post
Some of these arguments are mindblowing. First off, signing Trouba after his bridge deals is not comparable to Jones, Lindholm, Risto or Rielly doing so after their ELCs. The best comparable of his would be Subban: a defenseman who took a bridge deal and, should we say, won that gamble. Trouba is doing just that, but on a much smaller scale. Seven per year is not outlandish in the slightest. That being said, that's about as far as I would go.
Exactly. Subban won the Norris in 2012-2013 first year of the bridge deal and earned an 8 year 72 mill deal. if he signed a long-term deal prior, no way he was sniffing close to that.

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05-25-2017, 11:33 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Peggy View Post
That's the impression being left with when someone says 7.5 for 8 and another jumps at 8 for 8 saying that's the only way we'll get him to sign long term

Is that the general consensus? Trouba is now a top 10 d man in the league?
There was a suggestion, many pages back of something like:
6x6.5
7x7
8x7.5
There has been a lot of discussion around those numbers. Many said they would be willing to see those numbers raised by 1/4 to 1/2 mil per year if that is what it takes to get it done.

You don't like the suggestion of 8x8. How are you with 8x7.5? How about the 6x6.5? If you are satisfied with 6x6.5 how much do you think it might cost to sign him for 2 more years 7 years from now after 7 more years of cap increases? At 3%/yr rate of increase the cap would be 90.2 mil in 7 years. At 5% it would be 103.2 mil. Keep in mind that those last 2 years would be peak years (probably) and 100% UFA.

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05-25-2017, 11:44 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Mortimer Snerd View Post
There was a suggestion, many pages back of something like:
6x6.5
7x7
8x7.5
There has been a lot of discussion around those numbers. Many said they would be willing to see those numbers raised by 1/4 to 1/2 mil per year if that is what it takes to get it done.

You don't like the suggestion of 8x8. How are you with 8x7.5? How about the 6x6.5? If you are satisfied with 6x6.5 how much do you think it might cost to sign him for 2 more years 7 years from now after 7 more years of cap increases? At 3%/yr rate of increase the cap would be 90.2 mil in 7 years. At 5% it would be 103.2 mil. Keep in mind that those last 2 years would be peak years (probably) and 100% UFA.
This is why I don't like bridge deals and I tried telling my friend that the bridge deal is only going to cost him more and he said "good then pay him if he's good enough"

Which is poor salary cap management
I don't think trying to get a couple extra years on his ufa is the way to do it either by increasing Trouba' s salary cap by 2 million unless we plan on trading him during that time

Josh Morrissey is signing an rfa contract too

2 more years and our team is looking very expensive


Last edited by Peggy: 05-25-2017 at 11:50 AM.
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