Spezza gets the #1 spot. Given that he was bumped to 9th last year, that's quite a suprise. He definitely deserves to be #1, IMO. There's no-one else on the list that's as close to a sure thing.
After that, there's only two other Sens prospects on the list:
Vermette at 38
Emery at 60
Emery was the 10th highest ranked goalie as well, while Vermette just cracked the top 20 in terms of forwards.
Vermette being so much higher ranked than Emery suprised me quite a bit. I think Emery's the better prospect, and I remember some polls in the summer on this board that indicated the same thing.
- Averaging a point a game at the age of 19 in a mans league
- Captain of the 2003 WJC team (Sweden)
- Drafted ahead of Vermette
- Better two way player
- Better without the puck
- Top Swedish prospect in the world
WHy are you confident that Steen is the better two-way player. Vermette has been up with the Sens so far this season due to injuries, and has been a very effective penalty-killer for us. He's shown great play without the puck.
I'll be honest, I don't know much about Steen, not having seen him play very much, but I'm curious as to why you think he's definitely better than Vermette in this regard.
- Averaging a point a game at the age of 19 in a mans league
- Captain of the 2003 WJC team (Sweden)
- Drafted ahead of Vermette
- Better two way player
- Better without the puck
- Top Swedish prospect in the world
Now, why should Vermette be ranked that high?
If Steen can come over to North America and score 35 goals as a 20 year old in the AHL, I'll tip my hat. Vermette put up some serious numbers last year against men on North American ice - that is at least something to weigh when making the comparison. He has also cracked the line-up of arguably the deepest group of forwards in the world this year in Ottawa (admittedly, due to an injury).
The Sedins were arguably better than Steen at the same age in the SEL (MVP's), and given their struggles coming over to North America, that is something to at least consider when considering how sure a thing Steen is. Huselius simply dominated the SEL, and he has had his struggles as well (although he is a solid NHLer at this point).
Personally, I would put Steen ahead of Vermette at this point due his recent performance in the SEL, but my point is only that an argument CAN be made the other way. Obviously the exposure Vermette received in the AHL last year has something to do with his higher ranking. The AHL is the best league a prospect can prove his NHL readiness due to it's similar style of play with the NHL.
Overall though, most would put Emery and Steen ahead of Vermette (I know I did for Pucks list).
Don't forget that the Leafs have an entire rosterfull of elite prospects just waiting to step in and take over from the veterans after the next couple of deep Cup runs. They would be playing in the NHL now but Nolan was "just kidding" about his bad back.
It really seems as if Antoine's more an offensive player with blazing speed... Steen's a totally different player.
If you read the scouting reports, they all say he's a great two way player, very crafty with the puck, and a very good playmaker.
From all the reports I've read, nothing impresses me more then the fact that Steen was at camp this season for 2 days... and when it was time for him to leave, every single player, Pat Quinn, and John Ferguson were raving about this 19 year old kid who they referred to as "Thomas Steen's son".
Over the last month, he's jumped ahead of Robert Nilsson (Islanders) as the top Swedish prospect. Another reason why I'd rank him ahead of Vermette is because "Grus" recentely made the Swedish National Team as a 19 year old, which is rare.
If Steen can come over to North America and score 35 goals as a 20 year old in the AHL, I'll tip my hat. Vermette put up some serious numbers last year against men on North American ice - that is at least something to weigh when making the comparison. He has also cracked the line-up of arguably the deepest group of forwards in the world this year in Ottawa (admittedly, due to an injury).
Steen probably would have made the Leafs roster if Vastra Frolunda would've given him permission to stay the full camp. Apparentely, John Ferguson was attempting to work out an NHL contract with Steen to have him stay the full camp and possibly join the team on the flight back to Toronto.
Quote:
The Sedins were arguably better than Steen at the same age in the SEL (MVP's), and given their struggles coming over to North America, that is something to at least consider when considering how sure a thing Steen is. Huselius simply dominated the SEL, and he has had his struggles as well (although he is a solid NHLer at this point).
Alexander Steen plays a North American game, the Sedin's (and Huselius) do not. He was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba and spent the first 12 years of his life in Canada.
Fair points regarding Steen. He is a solid prospect and many of us in North American are looking forward to seeing him.
One point though - Vermette is a VERY solid defensive player. In the mold of a Guy Carboneau. To the point in Ottawa, where he's playing on the Sens top penalty killing unit right now in place of an injured Mike Fisher. He is a solid two way player many scouts have felt will be more of a two-way checker than pure offensive force. Personally, I've been most impressed with Vermette's shot and scoring ability, because I saw him as more of a 15-20 goal scoring two-way checker going into camp in the mold of an Arvedson. Now, I think his upside is actually higher offensively.
Only having seen Vermette a couple times, I don't know much about his two way game... but I rely on (like others) the internet and scouting reports on sites like TSN.ca which basically states that Vermette isn't a great defensive player.
Anyways... I think the points have been made and its' clear that Emery's very underrated as well as Steen should be ranked ahead of Vermette.
Also... notice the third Hossa brother, Marion (#33).
- Averaging a point a game at the age of 19 in a mans league
- Captain of the 2003 WJC team (Sweden)
- Drafted ahead of Vermette
- Better two way player
- Better without the puck
- Top Swedish prospect in the world
Now, why should Vermette be ranked that high?
Just a note: I don't know much about Steen, but I am presenting Vermette's side of the story on all your points.
I think its pretty fair to say that AHL is a better indicator of NHL ability than any other developmental league. Vermette's season last year after a whole season off, is equally as impressive statistically. Keep in mind that he wasn't even allowed to work out at all for a whole year - so conditioning was a problem for Antoine throughout last season. Had he had the whole previous year - he could have gotten a point a game. With european players there is always that x factor of whether or not their game will translate to North America.
re: Vermette's two way ability, the only thing I can say is that Vermette is only on the Sens as a defensive specialist. He isn't scoring and isn't being used on scoring line. Don't forget that they have Jody Hull to use a defensive specialist. Its a testament to his two way ability that he is being used on the first PK unit. Steen could be better - but its not due to a lack of defensive ability on Vermette's part. Vermette could be a Madden type of player.
Steen is the best Swedish Prospect - Vermette was the top rookie in a better league for evaluating NHL talent, you can pick which one you prefer.
To sum up: I don't think you can say definitively that one is better than the other.
On an aside- Boyes seemed to be a little low in comparison to Vermette seeing as they had similar seasons last year in the AHL. I don't think I agree with last list all too much.
...... With european players there is always that x factor of whether or not their game will translate to North America.....
Alexander Steen has spent 7 years in Europe, the previous 12 he spent in WINNIPEG, MANITOBA... where he was born and raised. He's a proud Canadian as he is a proud Swede. Steen plays a North American game.
Alexander Steen has spent 7 years in Europe, the previous 12 he spent in WINNIPEG, MANITOBA... where he was born and raised. He's a proud Canadian as he is a proud Swede. Steen plays a North American game.
I wasn't debating whether or not he plays a NA style game or not. My poinbt was merely that Vermette's rookie season in the AHL is a better indicator of NHL ability than Steen's season in the SEL. Whether or not he plays a NA style does not mean he'll have success at even the AHL level. I'm not knocking him - but I don't see how you can say that Steen is easily better than Vermette.
You shouldn't either...he'll probably never play for the Leafs because they trade their prospects for vets with "rumored" blown discs in their backs.
Vermette is playing in the NHL...Steen is not...Vermette scored over 30 goals as a rookie in the AHL...so far Vermette has proven more than Steen...'nuff said.
I don't think I ever said he was easily better then Vermette... I just said I don't think Vermette can be ranked so much higher then Alex.
And you really can't say that Vermette's 30 goals last year makes him better then Steen, considering he's never actually had the opportunity to play in the AHL and is on pace for a 60+ point season in the Swedish Elite League playing against men at the age of 19.
BTW... SensGod, way to add to this conversation. Very constructive.
I don't think I ever said he was easily better then Vermette... I just said I don't think Vermette can be ranked so much higher then Alex.
And you really can't say that Vermette's 30 goals last year makes him better then Steen, considering he's never actually had the opportunity to play in the AHL and is on pace for a 60+ point season in the Swedish Elite League playing against men at the age of 19.
BTW... SensGod, way to add to this conversation. Very constructive.
well..you're not really helping with saying a player that plays for a Tier 2 professional league is better than a player that plays for THE professional league.
BTW, Alexander Steen plays for Vastra Frolunda, the 2002/03 Swedish Elite League champions... division 1.
I never actually said he was a better player, all I said was that I don't see how Vermette's ahead of him in the rankings by that much!
According to Johan Nilsson (Predatore), he ranks Steen as the #1 Swedish prospect in the world... I suppose that means very little considering he's not in the NHL yet.
I never actually said he was a better player, all I said was that I don't see how Vermette's ahead of him in the rankings by that much!
so...if Steen isn't the better player...how can you expect him to be ahead of Steen in the rankings?
anyway...right now, sure Vermette is a bit older...but the fact of the matter is that Vermette is ranked in the top of young players as is Steen. Until Steen can prove that he can do what he does in the NHL ont he small ice surface that he can do in Sweden on the large ice surface. then we can start to have a 'fair' conversation about the subject.
right now all you are doing is speculating on Steen...SPECULATING...there have been more than enough euro players that have busted when they came to NA on the smaller ice surface. i'm not saying that Steen will bust...far from it...he could be a very good player in the NHL. but until he get's his swedish meatballs over here and does what he's done in a euro league amongst the best players in the world over here...then we can start comparing Verm to Steen.
He's spent most of his hockey life on the smaller ice surface.
And prospects are ranked by potential, and it seems that Steen's got more potential then Vermette... that list as well as the Sens forum just may be the only two spots that Vermette would be ranked ahead of Steen.
Alexander Steen has spent 7 years in Europe, the previous 12 he spent in WINNIPEG, MANITOBA... where he was born and raised. He's a proud Canadian as he is a proud Swede. Steen plays a North American game.
ok...trying to figure out the logic here.
because he spent his initial years...Tykes to about first year of Pee Wee here in North America (minor hockey)...and then everything after that in Sweden PeeWee, Bantom, Junior, + (North American equivalent)(which btw...are the true formative years for a players minor hockey development...size, playing style, getting used to their adolescent, post adolescent body shape and size). He plays a North American game?
The "North American" game is learned when body contact is introduced. From his 1st 12 years here then the next 7 in Sweden...I don't think that he played more than one year of "North American" hockey. And even at that...that one year was not exactly "real" "North American Hockey".
He's spent most of his hockey life on the smaller ice surface.
he was in Canada from the age of 0 to the age of 12...according to you. I don't know about you..but when I was playing AA hockey at the age of 12...the smaller ice surface was probably bigger then, than the euro ice surface is to me now.
That makes sense, but are you going to give the benefit of the doubt to every North American prospect when you're comparing one to a European prospect?
Vermette isn't really a "hit & bang" player himself, I'd say that Steen's easily a more physical player, from all the scouting reports it seems that Vermette plays more of a European style then Steen.
That makes sense, but are you going to give the benefit of the doubt to every North American prospect when you're comparing one to a European prospect?
Vermette isn't really a "hit & bang" player himself, I'd say that Steen's easily a more physical player, from all the scouting reports it seems that Vermette plays more of a European style then Steen.
I will give the benefit of the doubt...no worries there at all. Steen is a VERY good prospect. That can't be argued. I'm just trying to bring a little reality to your arguments. Just because he grew up in Canada doesn't mean that he automatically inherits canadian hockey traditions. Out of most likelyhood he was never introduced to "true" Canadian hockey at his age.
Vermette will never be a "hit & bang" player. He's a "Speedster" more than anything. Vermette will score his points in the NHL with his speed and skill. Not with a "Nose to the net" type of play that Steen has displayed.
Quite frankly...they appear to be very different players. If you want to talk "hit & bang" players...start talking Eaves, Bochenski, and Laich for the Sens.
