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Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 2016-17 Part XXII

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Old
06-05-2017, 10:15 AM
  #101
Ararana
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Carolina is in a tight spot, they need to make the playoffs and become relevant again, their fan base is withering already and they're trying to attract a buyer. They really are in a prime position to highly want Duchene, maybe even more so than Montreal. Also we know they have interest because Joe Nieuwendyk practically lived in the Pepsi Center last year to scout Duchene.

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06-05-2017, 10:27 AM
  #102
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Would you do Duchene for Lindholm+Bean straight across? We know what Canes fans will say of course.

I know Bean has his warts and detractors but in terms of being a high upside talent - if they are taking Hanifin off the table, I'd rather gamble on Bean's upside than settle for Fleury or McKeown.

They upgrade from Lindholm to Duchene, keep all their top defenders (Slavin, Pesce, Faulk, Hanifin) and their pick. We get a young two-way center who can step in on day one and a flawed but potentially rewarding defensive piece.

I guess it depends on your evaluation of Bean. But it's startIng to feel like the banter with Bruins fans over Landeskog. "We want one of your top NHL assets who is still young but we are taking all 5 of our top prospects off the board in talks". How generous guys...

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06-05-2017, 10:31 AM
  #103
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No, there should be better deals out there. In fact I'm pretty sure Sakic has already had trades on his table this board would've jumped to make. Let's hope he can get back close to that deadline value.

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06-05-2017, 10:34 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa View Post
Would you do Duchene for Lindholm+Bean straight across? We know what Canes fans will say of course.

I know Bean has his warts and detractors but in terms of being a high upside talent - if they are taking Hanifin off the table, I'd rather gamble on Bean's upside than settle for Fleury or McKeown.

They upgrade from Lindholm to Duchene, keep all their top defenders (Slavin, Pesce, Faulk, Hanifin) and their pick. We get a young two-way center who can step in on day one and a flawed but potentially rewarding defensive piece.

I guess it depends on your evaluation of Bean. But it's startIng to feel like the banter with Bruins fans over Landeskog. "We want one of your top NHL assets who is still young but we are taking all 5 of our top prospects off the board in talks". How generous guys...
No I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do it even if it was Lindholm.

If the Avs aren't getting a high end D there HAS to be a high pick or two coming back IMO.

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06-05-2017, 10:38 AM
  #105
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While I agree that Carolina's fan base is very caught up on contract status, I also do think there is some merit to that argument.

If there wasn't any merit to that argument we'd probably already seen a Duchene for Hanifin swap.

If it was me I wouldn't want my team to trade a promising 20 year old that is under control for at least 5 seasons for a 26 year old, albeit star player, who could walk in two seasons. Would you guys really like to trade Rantanen for a player similar to Duchene at this point in time, not really is my answer.

The only circumstance I can see where this would make sense is if Carolina thinks that adding Duchene at the expense of a young talent is going to get them over the hump to become a consistent playoff team. IMO this is where Carolina fans get stuck, they'd rather have a team controlled player than a chance at being a playoff team. IMO adding Duchene at the expense of Hanifin would make them a playoff team. Not to mention the fact they have like 3 prospects that could step in and be equally as good as Hanifin down the road.

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06-05-2017, 10:46 AM
  #106
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Some interesting stuff here regarding other teams and Vegas.

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/fr...ade-rumblings/

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06-05-2017, 10:48 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by chet1926 View Post
Would you guys really like to trade Rantanen for a player similar to Duchene at this point in time, not really is my answer.
If we had 4 Rantanens and desperately needed a Duchene, yeah I'd pretty easily do it. Do you know how often #1 centers hit the market?

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06-05-2017, 10:55 AM
  #108
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If we had 4 Rantanens and desperately needed a Duchene, yeah I'd pretty easily do it. Do you know how often #1 centers hit the market?
I probably would too. IMO Carolina needs to take that into consideration. They do have 3 quality defense prospects in the pipeline.

That's why I still think Duchene for Hanifin will be strongly considered by Carolina.

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06-05-2017, 11:03 AM
  #109
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They have Faulk, Slavin, Pesce, Hanifin, Bean, Fleury + on the backend yet they can't do a damn thing as an organization because they have no centers worth a damn. If their front office shares the same views as their HF fans, I'm starting to see why hockey might be failing in Carolina.

Sorry, I'm a bit frustrated with Carolina fans at the moment.

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06-05-2017, 11:13 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Ararana View Post
They have Faulk, Slavin, Pesce, Hanifin, Bean, Fleury + on the backend yet they can't do a damn thing as an organization because they have no centers worth a damn. If their front office shares the same views as their HF fans, I'm starting to see why hockey might be failing in Carolina.

Sorry, I'm a bit frustrated with Carolina fans at the moment.
Staal, Rask and Lindholm all outproduced Duchene this year. Just saying!

There goaltending was also a major issue but they've already brought in a new goalie in Scott Darling to try and correct that.

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06-05-2017, 11:18 AM
  #111
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You also can't tell Carolina fans they need to lower the evaluation of their premium blueline talents just because they have a bunch of them. I think many of their fans realize their team could be better balanced but having other fan bases tell your own fan base that "this and this needs to be done and you can and should trade player X because you have some other prospects" comes off as more than a little preachy.

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06-05-2017, 11:23 AM
  #112
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Staal, Rask and Lindholm all outproduced Duchene this year. Just saying!

There goaltending was also a major issue but they've already brought in a new goalie in Scott Darling to try and correct that.
They barely out produced him. It took career years for them to squeak by Duchenes worst year ever. Regardless we won't come to an agreement on anything here soon, that's clear.

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06-05-2017, 11:31 AM
  #113
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They barely out produced him. It took career years for them to squeak by Duchenes worst year ever. Regardless we won't come to an agreement on anything here soon, that's clear.
I agree but I was just pointing out some facts to an overly dramatic poster.

I could just as easily see the Canes acquire a premier winger because the acquiring cost should be lower.

Staal, Rask, Lindholm & even Teravainen are all quality centers. They just aren't 1st line caliber centers.

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06-05-2017, 11:33 AM
  #114
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Venting frustration, yes. We'll agree to disagree.

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06-05-2017, 11:36 AM
  #115
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Some interesting stuff here regarding other teams and Vegas.

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/fr...ade-rumblings/
I was thinking about this yesterday myself.


Would be quite happy to move down from 4 to 6 and grab a late 2nd from Vegas in the process.


At 6, we're still guaranteed one of Heiskanen, Vilardi, Makar, or Glass. I dont have any major preference out of any of these 4 so getting any of them would make me happy. I'm also extremely high on Pettersson and at 6 it's a higher chance we take him as well which would make me extremely happy.

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06-05-2017, 11:37 AM
  #116
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I see a few Edmonton fans (and a few bloggers) pushing this idea of an Eberle for Barrie trade. I guess they have given up any pretense of caring about the trade fit with the other team.
I'd do it...as long as we'd also get Edmonton's 1st round pick and Caleb Jones.

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Adater says he's hearing Slow-chemin will not be bought out ��
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That's one of my biggest annoyances with Sakic, how he bends over backwards for the vets.
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Sakic gonna sakic
Hey, let's all freak out because this guy...who is SOOOOOO connnected with the Avs reports a 50-50 proposition. (then he can just say...looks like they changed their minds)

"Everything I'm hearing says that Patrick Roy will NOT be the next head coach of the Avalanche."

A short time later - Patrick Roy is the next head coach of the Avalanche.

And last year...

"Everything I'm hearing is that Kevin Dineen is the next head coach of the Avalanche."

The very next day "I'd like to introduce our new head coach...Jared Bednar".

IF #32 isn't bought out, it's because he agreed to be exposed for the expansion draft (or traded). I will be very surprised if we use a protection slot on this has-been over a guy who played lights out better than him every single game they were both in an Avs uniform last year (Barberio).

Sakic has said over and over and over and over "we want to get younger and faster"...this is not the way to do it.

I call BS on this info and just a 50/50 guess on dater's part.

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Old
06-05-2017, 11:40 AM
  #117
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If we had 4 Rantanens and desperately needed a Duchene, yeah I'd pretty easily do it. Do you know how often #1 centers hit the market?
If you are the one trading Rantanen you aim for something better than Duchene and settle for him if you can't find a deal.

Canes should be looking to move Hanifin plus another asset for a higher tier centre than Duchene.

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06-05-2017, 11:45 AM
  #118
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It should be a legit concern to Carolina if they could keep Duchene. If they don't win the 2 years he's there why would he give up UFA to stay? If he goes somewhere like Montreal then I'd say it would be no problem getting him to stay. Yeah Carolina needs to make a big move to balance their team but if I were them I'd say make a bigger move and bring in a bigger piece. I'm sure if they can scrape enough expendable pieces together they don't mind getting Duchene.

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06-05-2017, 11:51 AM
  #119
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I'd be more concerned about Duchene continuing to regress than his contract in 2 years. The latter can usually be worked out... the former has an immediate impact for a team.

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06-05-2017, 12:08 PM
  #120
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I'd be more concerned about Duchene continuing to regress than his contract in 2 years. The latter can usually be worked out... the former has an immediate impact for a team.
I think we need more than the 2016-17 data point to say he's regressed. He's always been streaky. It may be fair to say that physically he's not in his prime anymore (looks like around seasons 4 & 5, age 23/24 are going to be his peak years statistically which makes sense for a forward like him) but:

Season 1: 0.68 PPG, Scored 9.8% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 2: 0.81 PPG, Scored 11.9% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 3: 0.48 PPG, Scored 9.5% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 4: 0.91 PPG, Scored 14.9% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 5: 0.99 PPG, Scored 10.6% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 6: 0.67 PPG, Scored 9.6% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 7: 0.78 PPG, Scored 15.0% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 8: 0.53 PPG, Scored 11.5% of team's goals (on a GP basis).

I don't exactly see a trend yet. I see inconsistency that has a ton to do with how effective of a team/linemate situation he has given the % ratios of his scoring to the teams. That probably proves what we already know: Matty never developed into that franchise-type center who can drive and create offense all by himself. But I think it also shows that if you put him on a functioning team and give him decent linemates, his scoring output will certainly increase dramatically.


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06-05-2017, 12:13 PM
  #121
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I think we need more than the 2016-17 data point to say he's regressed. He's always been streaky. It may be fair to say that physically he's not in his prime anymore but:

Season 1: 0.68 PPG, Scored 9.8% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 2: 0.81 PPG, Scored 11.9% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 3: 0.48 PPG, Scored 9.5% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 4: 0.91 PPG, Scored 14.9% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 5: 0.99 PPG, Scored 10.6% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 6: 0.67 PPG, Scored 9.6% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 7: 0.78 PPG, Scored 15.0% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 8: 0.53 PPG, Scored 11.5% of team's goals (on a GP basis).

I don't exactly see a trend yet.
I think the eye test is pretty clear he isn't the same player, and the numbers will continue show that. I know it is an unpopular opinion, but I think we will see it.

That said, Duchene is far better than he showed last season. He should rebound to a 55-60 point player next season. I wouldn't expect more than that if I was a team.

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06-05-2017, 12:20 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Foppa View Post
I think we need more than the 2016-17 data point to say he's regressed. He's always been streaky. It may be fair to say that physically he's not in his prime anymore (looks like around seasons 4 & 5, age 23/24 are going to be his peak years statistically which makes sense for a forward like him) but:

Season 1: 0.68 PPG, Scored 9.8% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 2: 0.81 PPG, Scored 11.9% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 3: 0.48 PPG, Scored 9.5% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 4: 0.91 PPG, Scored 14.9% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 5: 0.99 PPG, Scored 10.6% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 6: 0.67 PPG, Scored 9.6% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 7: 0.78 PPG, Scored 15.0% of team's goals (on a GP basis).
Season 8: 0.53 PPG, Scored 11.5% of team's goals (on a GP basis).

I don't exactly see a trend yet. I see inconsistency.
He even had a major streak through the first third of this season where he was the Avs leading scorer.

Up until December 20th:
0.85 PPG, Scored 18.5% of team's goals (missed a few games due to concussion. Would be 21.4% of team's goals if we used the per game basis)

If Duchene has truly regressed I don't think he could have kept up that level of play on such a bad team for more than one third of the NHL season. I think he has absolutely peaked. But I don't know if I agree that he has regressed.

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Old
06-05-2017, 12:25 PM
  #123
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I think the eye test is pretty clear he isn't the same player, and the numbers will continue show that. I know it is an unpopular opinion, but I think we will see it.

That said, Duchene is far better than he showed last season. He should rebound to a 55-60 point player next season. I wouldn't expect more than that if I was a team.
I think he clearly doesn't have the speed he once had.

So I don't think he will crack PPG or even 70+ points ever again unless he lands on the perfect team with the right linemates.

But I think his overall game has improved leaps and bounds since his rookie season and 60-65 points + his faceoff ability is damn valuable still in this league..

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Old
06-05-2017, 12:27 PM
  #124
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too many knee injuries for Duchene me thinks.... he used to be a able to score at any given moment in a hockey game because he was faster than anybody else. He doesnt seem to have that extra gear anymore, so he has to rely on better team play to produce. Hopefully he gets that overdrive back, but its very possible that he never does

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06-05-2017, 12:57 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
I think the eye test is pretty clear he isn't the same player, and the numbers will continue show that. I know it is an unpopular opinion, but I think we will see it.

That said, Duchene is far better than he showed last season. He should rebound to a 55-60 point player next season. I wouldn't expect more than that if I was a team.

No kidding.


Feel the exact same way. Think it's pretty obvious he's lost a step in his speed already and that's going to impact his game pretty significantly.

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